Stadium Development

[S64 Blade]

The conundrum for most clubs is well documented . . . it goes like this . . . . Say SUFC have 22K ST holders but regularly get 26K home fans turning up for games . . . how do you convert those extra fans into ST holders?

The conundrum is actually this . . . the 'extra' 4K home supporters are clearly NOT the same 4K each game . . . that wouldn't make sense . . . if they were the same 4k then they would just buy a ST.

So clubs like United have around 10 - 20k of floating voters. How do you persuade those floating voters to commit to regular attendance? United can only afford to increase the capacity at BL if they crack that conundrum, or have an extended stay in the PL where they can sell the tickets to away fans.

Part of the way to convince them is when we are in the PL. We have previously sold out of season tickets, meaning many wouldn’t have been able to buy them. Increasing the capacity solves this.

Another initiative, which has worked very well in the past and is arguably a reason why we’ve increased our average attendances on a like-for-like basis, is offering very cheap of free kids tickets when buying an adult. A reason a lot of casual fans won’t buy a season ticket is cost, especially if they have a family. Remove that barrier and at the same time, create your fan base for the future that will then pay. We can’t really do this now, due to the size of the ground, but we could if it was a bit bigger. It could even just be applicable in certain parts of the stadium. Say Bramall Lane upper tier. John Street/corner.

 

[South Sea Blade]

Wasn't it the flowery tongued (and convicted sex offending) Stuart Hall who called it the Colosseum on his match reports for Five live?

He called Bramall Lane the Taj Mahal. Back in the day when matches used to finish at 4:45, we were usually back in the car for the beginning of sports report on radio 5 and we always enjoyed Stuart's match summary whoever was playing, but it was great when he was at our game. For the pleasure he game me and my mates I look back on those days very fondly.

He called it the Taj Mahal because of the high number of Indian Restaurants located on London Road.

 

[Inter_blade83]

Dodgy firestick?

What's one of those?

 

[MadDad38]

He called Bramall Lane the Taj Mahal. Back in the day when matches used to finish at 4:45, we were usually back in the car for the beginning of sports report on radio 5 and we always enjoyed Stuart's match summary whoever was playing, but it was great when he was at our game. For the pleasure he game me and my mates I look back on those days very fondly.

He called it the Taj Mahal because of the high number of Indian Restaurants located on London Road.

Ah yes that’s the one.

 

[I should coco]

I guess we're victims of circumstances with ground development.
-You have the traditional "big" clubs . Those in the top flight who know they can attract over 50k with almost guaranteed income and high paying supporters

• Those lucky enough to be given new stadiums ,man city and west ham .
• Those who can build a smart new 10 to 12k stadium that's cheap enough and big enough , Rotherham, Donny
• Then there's the clubs stuck in the middle who need a circa 35k to 40k capacity who aren't perennial top flight clubs . Us , S6 , Leeds for example.

There aren't many of us stuck in that position in fact other than the 3 mentioned were probably the only ones with our existing ground ( Norwich and West Brom at a push)

The other club that got a free stadium, were the cheating twats down the M1.

Leicester went into administration early this century, didn't pay for their shiny new stadium and suffered NO points deduction.
The bastards have also just got off a PL charge on a technicality.
Looks like cheating pays, for some.

 

[brownblade]

It is daft the system we have in place. Got friends up that weekend, one a man u fan (st holder there) fancied coming to watch the game against Derby. Cant get him a ticket. £38 plus his couple of pints and a pie lost because the system doesnt work right. Wont be sold out either!

Put them down as a friend/family member that's been before(?).

Also many people have suggested just talking to the ticket office about this scenario as they're usually understanding.

 

[Keen Blade]

Do you actually realise how hard it is for people on low income & how people have been priced out of attending matches or do you walk round with your head up your arse?

You misunderstand me - I am saying it's already too expensive for us to fill the ground.
And although I'd love to see ground improvements , it wouldn't make sense to do them coz it would put prices up as the club would need to recoup the investment.
Which would price more people out.

 

[Keen Blade]

Do you actually realise how hard it is for people on low income & how people have been priced out of attending matches or do you walk round with your head up your arse?

I have just looked back to see I had already liked your post about pricing people out.

 

[Nah den]

Part of the way to convince them is when we are in the PL. We have previously sold out of season tickets, meaning many wouldn’t have been able to buy them. Increasing the capacity solves this.

Another initiative, which has worked very well in the past and is arguably a reason why we’ve increased our average attendances on a like-for-like basis, is offering very cheap of free kids tickets when buying an adult. A reason a lot of casual fans won’t buy a season ticket is cost, especially if they have a family. Remove that barrier and at the same time, create your fan base for the future that will then pay. We can’t really do this now, due to the size of the ground, but we could if it was a bit bigger. It could even just be applicable in certain parts of the stadium. Say Bramall Lane upper tier. John Street/corner.

As a club when it comes to the ground we should be thinking strategically, 10 or 20 years into the future. Today's kids are tomorrow's adult support. Maybe we should be looking to increase capacity but I'd say a focus has to be on the facilities.

I started taking my 6 year old lad at the end of last season and we sit on BLUT, mainly so he can see the pitch properly. The facilities are terrible, I have to miss 5-10 mins each half to take him to the toilet when it's not completely rammed on the concourse. Neither of us mind that it's a bit rough and ready, and it's all part of the match day experience, for us. However, I know a lot of families that simply won't go for the same reason, they don't want that experience with little kids.

These are the future fans we should try to be capturing. Those that go already will continue to do so, but there's plenty of untapped revenue for the club if they made it a better experience.

 

[FATTYFOULKE]

Not really pal. Just don’t accept bullshit. Don’t call them cunts deluded then say we have a bigger fanbase

On what basis are you saying they have the bigger fanbase.? Please don’t start talking about attendances from thirty years ago or one off glory day attendances such as Wycombe.

 

[FATTYFOULKE]

Agree on most points. But if they were top of championship for most of season theyd smash 30k averages In. It been a cunt I just need to tell it how it is. And tbh I think deep down every body knows it

In your opinion, we’ll never find out though.

 

[FATTYFOULKE]

As a club when it comes to the ground we should be thinking strategically, 10 or 20 years into the future. Today's kids are tomorrow's adult support. Maybe we should be looking to increase capacity but I'd say a focus has to be on the facilities.

I started taking my 6 year old lad at the end of last season and we sit on BLUT, mainly so he can see the pitch properly. The facilities are terrible, I have to miss 5-10 mins each half to take him to the toilet when it's not completely rammed on the concourse. Neither of us mind that it's a bit rough and ready, and it's all part of the match day experience, for us. However, I know a lot of families that simply won't go for the same reason, they don't want that experience with little kids.

These are the future fans we should try to be capturing. Those that go already will continue to do so, but there's plenty of untapped revenue for the club if they made it a better experience.

Well I’ve been to most grounds and to describe the facilities on the BLUT as terrible just baffles me. It gets busy at half time when everybody goes to the loo? Show me a ground where that doesn’t happen.

What facilities do you think should be there that aren’t? The concourse is spacious and well lit, plenty of bars, decent toilets. What’s terrible about the BLUT in comparison to other grounds?

 

[Nah den]

Well I’ve been to most grounds and to describe the facilities on the BLUT as terrible just baffles me. It gets busy at half time when everybody goes to the loo? Show me a ground where that doesn’t happen.

What facilities do you think should be there that aren’t? The concourse is spacious and well lit, plenty of bars, decent toilets. What’s terrible about the BLUT in comparison to other grounds?

In comparison to other grounds makes no difference whatsoever to my point. BLUT is luxury compared to a North Korean labour camp, doesn't mean it's going to attract more families. The concourse is narrow and packed at HT, queues for the kiosk often reach the back wall, the stairwell to get out at full time is rammed and very tight, the toilets at half time are a nightmare when you've got a child you have to lift up to reach the urinal, and there were blokes stood in there smoking at the QPR game. All fine if you're used to it, but not if you're a family that hasn't been before or if they are reticent due to having young children.

 

[CaptainMorgans]

Some fair points. Some daft ens. Stats n figures can always be altered to fit the narrative. Pigs will have their own versions of course. All I’m saying is nobody can knock there support. If they did they are seriously deluded. The very word we like to throw at them at every opportunity. I don’t know 1 blade in my very large circle what would ever praise them but I also don’t know 1 who would knock there support because like it or lump it it can’t be knocked. Simple. It’s not a problem in grand scheme of things lol

You can twist stats however you like. True.
The ones I displayed took an average since 1970 as I think that's more than a fair sample to go back to to keep things relevant.

Sheff Utd average league finish: 31 / 92.
Sheff Weds average league finish: 32 / 92.

Sheff Utd major honours: 0
Sheff Wed major honours: 1

Sheff Utd average attendance: 20,000.
Sheff Wed average attendance: 21,800.

If you wanted to look at it since the turn of the century.

Sheff Utd average league finish: 30 / 92
Sheff Weds average league finish 39 / 92

Sheff Utd average attendance: 23,300.
Sheff Wed average attendance: 22,975.

Sheff Utd major trophies: 0
Sheff Wed major trophies: 0

----

There's basically nothing between us.
In more recent times, we've been slightly better but not much bigger.

I'd agree that their fan base is slightly larger, based on their occasional trips to Wembley.
They also have a bigger stadium to support higher crowds if they ever did get up to the PL.
But let's no swallow their "massive club" propoganda. There's decades of actual evidence to dismiss it.

If you wanted to look at more modern metrics in terms of global relevance, take a look at our social media followings.

Instagram
Sheff Utd - 717k
Sheff Wed - 142k

Twitter
Sheff Utd - 576k
Sheff Wed - 380k

Facebook
Sheff Utd - 1.2m
Sheff Wed - 383k

TikTok
Sheff Utd - 1.8m
Sheff Wed - 127k

Traditionalists will dismiss the above, but it speaks to their obscurity to younger audiences.
Most of our players (and theirs) won't remember / weren't born when they last played at the highest level.

 

[FATTYFOULKE]

In comparison to other grounds makes no difference whatsoever to my point. BLUT is luxury compared to a North Korean labour camp, doesn't mean it's going to attract more families. The concourse is narrow and packed at HT, queues for the kiosk often reach the back wall, the stairwell to get out at full time is rammed and very tight, the toilets at half time are a nightmare when you've got a child you have to lift up to reach the urinal, and there were blokes stood in there smoking at the QPR game. All fine if you're used to it, but not if you're a family that hasn't been before or if they are reticent due to having young children.

We can’t be talking about the same stand.

I’ve never seen the queues reach the back wall. If you go to the toilets in the corner there are urinals made for kids. The stairwell isn’t very tight and suggesting there’s blokes stood in there smoking at half time? Never seen it, they’d have a job on with all the foot traffic in and out.

Not sure quite what you expect at a ground at half time or full time, its not Wembley or Spurs, but it’s not as bad as you’re making out.

 

[The Fox]

I've had ST in the kop , south stand and now in the westfield corner.
When I return to the south stand for cup games I'm always surprised how congested the concourse is ,for most and for myself for many years it was normal.
I suppose the point is you accept and get used to what's OK/ normal.

 

[Nah den]

We can’t be talking about the same stand.

I’ve never seen the queues reach the back wall. If you go to the toilets in the corner there are urinals made for kids. The stairwell isn’t very tight and suggesting there’s blokes stood in there smoking at half time? Never seen it, they’d have a job on with all the foot traffic in and out.

Not sure quite what you expect at a ground at half time or full time, its not Wembley or Spurs, but it’s not as bad as you’re making out.

OK, so you've never seen it so it doesn't/hasn't happened? Maybe you don't have a small child with you so aren't as aware. I was in the toilet with my son when two blokes were stood there smoking, it happened. As for the kids urinals, fine if they aren't full of blokes pissing in them, which they are at half time.

I'm sure it's far from the worst stand in football, it's far from the worst stand at BDTBL, but the point remains that the facilities we have won't attract a potential rich vein of the new fans I describe above.

 

[Sheffsteel]

You can twist stats however you like. True.
The ones I displayed took an average since 1970 as I think that's more than a fair sample to go back to to keep things relevant.

Sheff Utd average league finish: 31 / 92.
Sheff Weds average league finish: 32 / 92.

Sheff Utd major honours: 0
Sheff Wed major honours: 1

Sheff Utd average attendance: 20,000.
Sheff Wed average attendance: 21,800.

If you wanted to look at it since the turn of the century.

Sheff Utd average league finish: 30 / 92
Sheff Weds average league finish 39 / 92

Sheff Utd average attendance: 23,300.
Sheff Wed average attendance: 22,975.

Sheff Utd major trophies: 0
Sheff Wed major trophies: 0

----

There's basically nothing between us.
In more recent times, we've been slightly better but not much bigger.

I'd agree that their fan base is slightly larger, based on their occasional trips to Wembley.
They also have a bigger stadium to support higher crowds if they ever did get up to the PL.
But let's no swallow their "massive club" propoganda. There's decades of actual evidence to dismiss it.

If you wanted to look at more modern metrics in terms of global relevance, take a look at our social media followings.

Instagram
Sheff Utd - 717k
Sheff Wed - 142k

Twitter
Sheff Utd - 576k
Sheff Wed - 380k

Facebook
Sheff Utd - 1.2m
Sheff Wed - 383k

TikTok
Sheff Utd - 1.8m
Sheff Wed - 127k

Traditionalists will dismiss the above, but it speaks to their obscurity to younger audiences.
Most of our players (and theirs) won't remember / weren't born when they last played at the highest level.

Great post.....it's always good to come up with facts.

I'm old and boring and have loads of reference material on United and Wednesday.
The facts show time and time again that overall (historically) Wednesday are about 10% bigger than United on almost every stat.
Although this century United are slightly bigger than Wednesday on almost every stat.

So this "Wednesday are massive" agenda is a total myth/ lie.
Think it's based around their success in the early 30's, early 60's and early 90's, when they were one the strongest clubs in England.
We have a rich history of top flight football but the only time we've been one of the best clubs in the league is pre 1st world war.

Even now you sometimes hear the cries "when we have Waddle and Sheridan I remember over 40K at Hillsboro every week".
These again are total lies.....the data shows when SWFC were in their early 90's heyday...they averaged 25K to 29K.
and that's with a 6,000 capacity away end which would swell their home gates.
Yes they did get the odd crowd over 40,000 but they also had some crowds of barely 20,000 even when doing well in the top flight.
So yes, it's true Sheff Wed haven't broke the 30K average attendance barrier for nearly 60 years

Also let's not forget our infrastructure is much much better than there's
We have a much better, more modern and much more successful Academy and training facility.
Even our women's team is on a totally different level (about 5 divisions above) compared to the SWFC women's team.

SWFC don't really have any foundations to build their club....everything about them is short termism and chasing losses.
There's no doubt that overall our future looks much better than there's.

 

[FATTYFOULKE]

OK, so you've never seen it so it doesn't/hasn't happened? Maybe you don't have a small child with you so aren't as aware. I was in the toilet with my son when two blokes were stood there smoking, it happened. As for the kids urinals, fine if they aren't full of blokes pissing in them, which they are at half time.

I'm sure it's far from the worst stand in football, it's far from the worst stand at BDTBL, but the point remains that the facilities we have won't attract a potential rich vein of the new fans I describe above.

Fair enough if that’s your opinion. But you’re going to be very limited as to where you can take your kid be that at a sporting venue or concert or activity of any sort to find the facilities you’re looking for.

 

[CaptainMorgans]

Great post.....it's always good to come up with facts.

I'm old and boring and have loads of reference material on United and Wednesday.
The facts show time and time again that overall (historically) Wednesday are about 10% bigger than United on almost every stat.
Although this century United are slightly bigger than Wednesday on almost every stat.

So this "Wednesday are massive" agenda is a total myth/ lie.
Think it's based around their success in the early 30's, early 60's and early 90's, when they were one the strongest clubs in England.
We have a rich history of top flight football but the only time we've been one of the best clubs in the league is pre 1st world war.

Even now you sometimes hear the cries "when we have Waddle and Sheridan I remember over 40K at Hillsboro every week".
These again are total lies.....the data shows when SWFC were in their early 90's heyday...they averaged 25K to 29K.
and that's with a 6,000 capacity away end which would swell their home gates.
Yes they did get the odd crowd over 40,000 but they also had some crowds of barely 20,000 even when doing well in the top flight.
So yes, it's true Sheff Wed haven't broke the 30K average attendance barrier for nearly 60 years

Also let's not forget our infrastructure is much much better than there's
We have a much better, more modern and much more successful Academy and training facility.
Even our women's team is on a totally different level (about 5 divisions above) compared to the SWFC women's team.

SWFC don't really have any foundations to build their club....everything about them is short termism and chasing losses.
There's no doubt that overall our future looks much better than there's.

Good assessment... but disagree with the very last point.
Whilst we do have much better infrastructure (and hopefully more to come), everything in football is so fragile. One good / bad owner can make or break a club and our future is very uncertain.

 

[Bladeloyal]

Ground ,facilities unrivalled ,training grounds unrivaled,hotel unrivalled,first team unrivalled,women's team unrivalled. Youth set up unrivalled ,think you get the picture.utb

 

[Bladeloyal]

Oh and by the way swfc don't have a ground they rent

 

[Sheffsteel]

Good assessment... but disagree with the very last point.
Whilst we do have much better infrastructure (and hopefully more to come), everything in football is so fragile. One good / bad owner can make or break a club and our future is very uncertain.

Yeh thinking about it....agree....no club or fan base should ever rest on its laurels.

Also when I said factually Wednesday are 10% bigger than us......it's actually more like 5%.
The important point is that the clubs are suprisingly close on all the big club stats, Wednesday just edge it.

As I mentioned before the issue that makes Wednesday fans arrogant is down to their heyday period
of the early 30's, early 60's and early 90's when they were genuine contenders for honours and up there on a par with the big boys.
Also histically they are the most successful club in Yorkshire, better than Leeds who's history of significance didnt start until 1964.

It's like Nottingham Forest fans still have this culture of arrogance and this feeling they are a massive club.
Most of the statistic prove Sheff United are, historically bigger than Forest, a club that until last season spent more of its history in the 2nd tier.

However the reason Forest fans are rightly so arrogant is their 2 consecutive European cups but their domestic honours is worse than ours.

 

[PrestwichBlade]

OK, so you've never seen it so it doesn't/hasn't happened? Maybe you don't have a small child with you so aren't as aware. I was in the toilet with my son when two blokes were stood there smoking, it happened. As for the kids urinals, fine if they aren't full of blokes pissing in them, which they are at half time.

I'm sure it's far from the worst stand in football, it's far from the worst stand at BDTBL, but the point remains that the facilities we have won't attract a potential rich vein of the new fans I describe above.

Tssk, be happy with your lot and don't strive for better. If it were alright for me...etc...

 

[alcoblade]

Not really pal. Just don’t accept bullshit. Don’t call them cunts deluded then say we have a bigger fanbase

We've averaged more than they have over the last 30 years. But that isn't the point. The point is they, and for some eason you, are obsessed with it. We aren't.

 

[CarlMcBlade]

For me it’s simply not about crowds or capacity, it about upgrading an antiquated, sub-standard facility…Even though it was only built in 1990.
Yes, the punters might love it, but incorporating what effectively is a concrete covered spoil-heap into a modern football stadium…is ever so slightly embarrassing.

 

[Nah den]

Fair enough if that’s your opinion. But you’re going to be very limited as to where you can take your kid be that at a sporting venue or concert or activity of any sort to find the facilities you’re looking for.

As I've said, I take my son to football, I'm talking about people that perhaps haven't grown up going to football, but have kids they'd like to take but have concerns about the things I've described. Maybe it isn't possible to bring the facilities up to scratch in their current guise, but the thread is about stadium development and I think aiming for a modern, family friendly environment should be part of the discussion.

 

[JJBlade]

Yeh thinking about it....agree....no club or fan base should ever rest on its laurels.

Also when I said factually Wednesday are 10% bigger than us......it's actually more like 5%.
The important point is that the clubs are suprisingly close on all the big club stats, Wednesday just edge it.

As I mentioned before the issue that makes Wednesday fans arrogant is down to their heyday period
of the early 30's, early 60's and early 90's when they were genuine contenders for honours and up there on a par with the big boys.
Also histically they are the most successful club in Yorkshire, better than Leeds who's history of significance didnt start until 1964.

It's like Nottingham Forest fans still have this culture of arrogance and this feeling they are a massive club.
Most of the statistic prove Sheff United are, historically bigger than Forest, a club that until last season spent more of its history in the 2nd tier.

However the reason Forest fans are rightly so arrogant is their 2 consecutive European cups but their domestic honours is worse than ours.

Still say the same about the European Cup in it's old previous life.
From the mid 70's it was dead until the new Champions League format was introduced and the money started to interest the big clubs again.
Clubs like Forest, Malmo, Steaua Bucharest, Red Star Belgrade, Standard Liege, St Ettienne, and Goteberg all did well in the tournament, and never will again

 

[Pollingtonblade]

We would sell out if we were creative whatever the capacity, ads on buses for example. It's not rocket science.

 

[ancientblade]

the reason wednesday can sell 45k tickets for a play off final is 2 fold theyve about 10k who only ever turn out for these one off games and their ticketing system allows anybody and everybodys granny to attend uniteds ticketing system is far too rigid and doesnt allow full families or one off fans to buy tickets for these big games united are still living in the 90s on this one