Safe Standing

[VM198]

We've been saying the Kop needs a rebuild, witha bigger rake. Why not have a two sectioned stand, front behind the goal being safe standing, n seats behind.

Great idea, but where's the 'faloose'?
Take the rebuilt Kop right back to within 150mm(6"in old money)and standard Bld. Regs., of the boundary with Brearley's property, hopefully giving him a wobbly. Then two tiers, lower standing, upper seats, extending some what over the lower allowing for spacious concourses with salubrious toilets with sloping floors into 6" drains to get the piss away to keep ones feet dry.
Catering emporiums with machines that pour 20 pints in 5/6 seconds or whatever they do. Only sell chip butties with an array of 10/12 different sauces/chutneys for the butties. This would simplify and quicken the catering, Could also sell sweets out of machines for the sweet of tooth, again cutting down on waiting time and labour costs hopefully keeping prices within an affordable range. Keep it simple Blades.

 

[Inter_blade83]

One thing I’ll always miss but I was young at the time is stood on the kop and when we scored jumping up to the fence and clinging on with one arm while the other thumping the air. Used to love it. You could proper celebrate a goal back then.

No standing is unsafe, only the fences, pens, gates etc that were put in place to keep people in them are unsafe. Well that and policing/stewarding

 

[Snowflake]

Great idea, but where's the 'faloose'?
Take the rebuilt Kop right back to within 150mm(6"in old money)and standard Bld. Regs., of the boundary with Brearley's property, hopefully giving him a wobbly. Then two tiers, lower standing, upper seats, extending some what over the lower allowing for spacious concourses with salubrious toilets with sloping floors into 6" drains to get the piss away to keep ones feet dry.
Catering emporiums with machines that pour 20 pints in 5/6 seconds or whatever they do. Only sell chip butties with an array of 10/12 different sauces/chutneys for the butties. This would simplify and quicken the catering, Could also sell sweets out of machines for the sweet of tooth, again cutting down on waiting time and labour costs hopefully keeping prices within an affordable range. Keep it simple Blades.

Do your dreams include holding a European trophy with your arm around a lady of your choice ?

 

[shorehamview]

Unless it’s an exclusive area such as the corner I don’t see how it can be priced any different to the rest of the stand. If safe standing is more than a seated ticket then just pay for a seated ticket and go stand in the safe standing section.

With the safe standing areas you still get a ticket that's for your place. So if you get to your spot and some bugger is stood there then you get them to shift, same as if someone is sat in your seat. If they won't shift, get a steward to shift them.

 

[Sean Thornton]

Do your dreams include holding a European trophy with your arm around a lady of your choice ?

“with your arm around a lady of your choice ?”

Lady? Tut tut tut……..

 

[Inter_blade83]

With the safe standing areas you still get a ticket that's for your place. So if you get to your spot and some bugger is stood there then you get them to shift, same as if someone is sat in your seat. If they won't shift, get a steward to shift them.

Guaranteed the riff raff shit moustache kids will be a problem every fucking game.

 

[mancunianblade]

With the safe standing areas you still get a ticket that's for your place. So if you get to your spot and some bugger is stood there then you get them to shift, same as if someone is sat in your seat. If they won't shift, get a steward to shift them.

Of course. but unless its sold-out people will just move to empty spaces

 

[shorehamview]

Guaranteed the riff raff shit moustache kids will be a problem every fucking game.

Then they shall get the clip.

 

[VM198]

Do your dreams include holding a European trophy with your arm around a lady of your choice ?

?
Granted, I got a little carried away there but when on a roll, let it roll and with many complaining of the state of the toilets and catering I gave my take.
It probably is pie(not on the menu)in the sky but it could be reality, given the will.
When it comes to holding trophy's and young lady's, you can have the trophy, but it's much more fun if you are the ladies choice to put an arm around her. When's your case come up?
Will you be getting your psychology diploma recalibrated, getting a little rusty around the edges or maybe see someone who has a currently valid one.

 

[jt64]

With the safe standing areas you still get a ticket that's for your place. So if you get to your spot and some bugger is stood there then you get them to shift, same as if someone is sat in your seat. If they won't shift, get a steward to shift them.

I have never seen this happen when it is set up for standing anywhere

 

[Stand United]

Morning all. Fans at QPR on Monday might have noticed that a section in the back few rows had safe standing installed. This was brought in last August, with some larger sections in the home end that were converted (to get a licence for this for the home end, there’s a minimum of away seats that also need to be done too).

Ahead of the game, we met with QPR’s safety officer, who gave a tour of the safe standing sections and how they’ve gone about introducing them. He’s keen to get any feedback from fans using the sections Monday, and we’d like to also feed these experiences back to United.

Loftus Road is the only ground in the top two leagues to so far go with the slimline integrated type of rail seat – the type that’s more commonly used in Germany (Celtic & Shrewsbury are the only other UK clubs). It’s more expensive to install, but is the only rail seat option for clubs where there’s a similar restriction on space because of the age of the stand (like our Kop for example).

For those that used them (appreciate it’s a relatively small number!) or saw them in use, what were your impressions? Was it obvious enough when you got your ticket that you were buying one in these sections? Was it a good experience? Anything you’d change?

Any and all feedback appreciated – feel free to reply here, or DM.

Snaps from the away end:




Home end’s lower loft (behind the goal opposite the away fans)

 

[Snowflake]

Morning all. Fans at QPR on Monday might have noticed that a section in the back few rows had safe standing installed. This was brought in last August, with some larger sections in the home end that were converted (to get a licence for this for the home end, there’s a minimum of away seats that also need to be done too).

Ahead of the game, we met with QPR’s safety officer, who gave a tour of the safe standing sections and how they’ve gone about introducing them. He’s keen to get any feedback from fans using the sections Monday, and we’d like to also feed these experiences back to United.

Loftus Road is the only ground in the top two leagues to so far go with the slimline integrated type of rail seat – the type that’s more commonly used in Germany (Celtic & Shrewsbury are the only other UK clubs). It’s more expensive to install, but is the only rail seat option for clubs where there’s a similar restriction on space because of the age of the stand (like our Kop for example).

For those that used them (appreciate it’s a relatively small number!) or saw them in use, what were your impressions? Was it obvious enough when you got your ticket that you were buying one in these sections? Was it a good experience? Anything you’d change?

Any and all feedback appreciated – feel free to reply here, or DM.

Snaps from the away end:

View attachment 150412
View attachment 150414

Home end’s lower loft (behind the goal opposite the away fans)
View attachment 150413

Looks good to me. Bring it on.

 

[Dkc]

Looks good to me. Bring it on.

Not rocket science, is it?

 

[Tickhill Blade]

Interesting that they've named that stand the 'Stanley' Bowles stand, didn't everyone call him Stan? It would be us going for the 'Anthony Currie' stand

 

[Snowflake]

Not rocket science, is it?

The structure isn’t but the bureaucracy may be !!

 

[Ainsley Harriott]

Morning all. Fans at QPR on Monday might have noticed that a section in the back few rows had safe standing installed. This was brought in last August, with some larger sections in the home end that were converted (to get a licence for this for the home end, there’s a minimum of away seats that also need to be done too).

Ahead of the game, we met with QPR’s safety officer, who gave a tour of the safe standing sections and how they’ve gone about introducing them. He’s keen to get any feedback from fans using the sections Monday, and we’d like to also feed these experiences back to United.

Loftus Road is the only ground in the top two leagues to so far go with the slimline integrated type of rail seat – the type that’s more commonly used in Germany (Celtic & Shrewsbury are the only other UK clubs). It’s more expensive to install, but is the only rail seat option for clubs where there’s a similar restriction on space because of the age of the stand (like our Kop for example).

For those that used them (appreciate it’s a relatively small number!) or saw them in use, what were your impressions? Was it obvious enough when you got your ticket that you were buying one in these sections? Was it a good experience? Anything you’d change?

Any and all feedback appreciated – feel free to reply here, or DM.

Snaps from the away end:

View attachment 150412
View attachment 150414

Home end’s lower loft (behind the goal opposite the away fans)
View attachment 150413

WAINT THA SIT DARN!!

Yorkshiremen famously don't like change. That's why there's opposition to it on here. "I've sat here 50 years man and boy I'm moving for nobody"

 

[BigBed]

This won't happen until the cocks that have caused the kop issues can control themselves.
Also, it would be quite difficult to sell season tickets in a safe standing area wouldnt it?, due to the 50 "seats" in that row, trying to house 65 people, because that is exactly what's been happening upto now.

 

[Stand United]

Also, it would be quite difficult to sell season tickets in a safe standing area wouldnt it?, due to the 50 "seats" in that row, trying to house 65 people, because that is exactly what's been happening upto now.

It’s one rail seat, one fan – it’s different abroad, but for rail seating in the English leagues 1:1 is what’s allowed. That might alter some time in the future, but likely won’t for the foreseeable. And almost definitely won’t for any older build where the space isn’t a lot (eg the areas pictured, or our Kop) – those areas will be 1:1 max. But yes, getting the current migration issues sorted will be important for this to happen in the future.

 

[Torrix1889]

It’s one rail seat, one fan – it’s different abroad, but for rail seating in the English leagues 1:1 is what’s allowed. That might alter some time in the future, but likely won’t for the foreseeable. And almost definitely won’t for any older build where the space isn’t a lot (eg the areas pictured, or our Kop) – those areas will be 1:1 max.

Might be 1:1 but that doesn't stop mutiples standing in 1:1 seated areas as they are on our Kop at the moment

 

[Houston_Blade]

I heard that the Blades fans who bought tickets in these seats left before KO to get their money back as there were no seats installed.

"we'erz seats you fancy London ponces?"

 

[Sheffsteel]

This won't happen until the cocks that have caused the kop issues can control themselves.
Also, it would be quite difficult to sell season tickets in a safe standing area wouldnt it?, due to the 50 "seats" in that row, trying to house 65 people, because that is exactly what's been happening upto now.

Agree, initially there would be issues because in the English trial the government will only allow a strict 1 seat to 1 person ratio,
so fans will be allocated designated seats, the same as the current situation. So as you say the problem would still remain.

However I've no doubt that if successful, then clubs will call for us to edge nearer the German model until we match it.

In Germany they rightly argue that people stood up don't take up as much room as someone sat down, which is true.
In the past (pre 80's) you would see over 100 people stood in an area taken up by 50 seats.
However Germany has calculated that the safety ratio for each seat is between a 1.5 to up to 1.8 ratio

So that means that it should be totally safe to have a max of 90 people stood in an area taken up by 50 seats (thats what happens every week in German football).
Doubt these people can be allocated designated a seat, when there aren't enough seats, so they stand where they want.

The advantages of this are
1: Greatly improved atmosphere. I remember the pre 1980's and it's another world, atmosphere wise, compared to now. It was quite simple...if you wanted to sing with loads of hustle and bustle you went to stand on the Kop, if you wanted something more sedate and calm you went on the South stand to sit.
2: A cheaper way to increase capacity, for example if we install rail seats on the whole Kop, then 10,221 x 1.8 = 18,397
So this increases capacity by an extra 8.000 on the Kop at relatively little cost, however it's not so simple as there would be significant costs regards increasing the number of turn styles, widening entrances/ exits, greatly enlarging the concourse areas and building more and bigger toilets and kiosks. In fact for many stadia a complete re-design would be needed, hence most stadia just install a smaller number of rail seats usually directly behind the goals, not the whole stand.
3: In theory cheaper priced tickets...for example in Germany the average price of standing season tickets in the top flight is currently just under £200.

 

[BigBed]

Agree, initially there would be issues because in the English trial the government will only allow a strict 1 seat to 1 person ratio,
so fans will be allocated designated seats, the same as the current situation. So as you say the problem would still remain.

However I've no doubt that if successful, then clubs will call for us to edge nearer the German model until we match it.

In Germany they rightly argue that people stood up don't take up as much room as someone sat down, which is true.
In the past (pre 80's) you would see over 100 people stood in an area taken up by 50 seats.
However Germany has calculated that the safety ratio for each seat is between a 1.5 to up to 1.8 ratio

So that means that it should be totally safe to have a max of 90 people stood in an area taken up by 50 seats (thats what happens every week in German football).
Doubt these people can be allocated designated a seat, when there aren't enough seats, so they stand where they want.

The advantages of this are
1: Greatly improved atmosphere. I remember the pre 1980's and it's another world, atmosphere wise, compared to now. It was quite simple...if you wanted to sing with loads of hustle and bustle you went on the Kop, if you wanted something more sedate and calm you went on the South stand.
2: A cheaper way to increase capacity, for example if we install rail seats on the whole Kop, then 10,221 x 1.8 = 18,397
So this increases capacity by an extra 8.000 on the Kop at relatively little cost, however it's not so simple as there would be significant costs regards increasing the number of turn styles, widening entrances/ exits, greatly enlarging the concourse areas and building more and bigger toilets and kiosks. In fact for many stadiums a complete re-design would be needed, hence most stadia just install a smaller number of rail seats usually directly behind the goals, not the whole stand.
3: In theory cheaper priced tickets...for example in Germany the average price of standing season tickets in the top flight is currently just under £200.

Totally agree, but, health and safety here is far stricter than it is in Germany, alsothe current kop structure will have specific weight limits in place too, these will decrease over time, due to structural stress points and weaknesses also.
Theres a long way to go if we're going to see this at the Lane!

 

[Stand United]

A cheaper way to increase capacity, for example if we install rail seats on the whole Kop, then 10,221 x 1.8 = 18,397

Mentioned this to you previously, but that’s really not on the cards even if there is a shift to allow more than 1:1. It might be for newer builds, but unless there is some major work on the existing Kop to essentially remould the rows (not simple, not cheap), or the SGSA has some sort of about-turn on its overall approach to spacing requirements, it wouldn’t be possible. The only part that could would be the proposed expansion area, if that happens, and again if there is some relaxation to allow more than 1:1.

 

[Houston_Blade]

In your view Stand United what are the chances of seeing this at BDTBL at any point in the next 2-3 years? I'd say there's no chance personally as I don't see a new owner coming in and paying for this, I also don't see Abdullah paying for it if this sale falls through as he's not going to get any benefit from it himself (assuming the club will still be for sale).

 

[Broomhall Blade]

Agree, initially there would be issues because in the English trial the government will only allow a strict 1 seat to 1 person ratio,
so fans will be allocated designated seats, the same as the current situation. So as you say the problem would still remain.

However I've no doubt that if successful, then clubs will call for us to edge nearer the German model until we match it.

In Germany they rightly argue that people stood up don't take up as much room as someone sat down, which is true.
In the past (pre 80's) you would see over 100 people stood in an area taken up by 50 seats.
However Germany has calculated that the safety ratio for each seat is between a 1.5 to up to 1.8 ratio

So that means that it should be totally safe to have a max of 90 people stood in an area taken up by 50 seats (thats what happens every week in German football).
Doubt these people can be allocated designated a seat, when there aren't enough seats, so they stand where they want.

The advantages of this are
1: Greatly improved atmosphere. I remember the pre 1980's and it's another world, atmosphere wise, compared to now. It was quite simple...if you wanted to sing with loads of hustle and bustle you went to stand on the Kop, if you wanted something more sedate and calm you went on the South stand to sit.
2: A cheaper way to increase capacity, for example if we install rail seats on the whole Kop, then 10,221 x 1.8 = 18,397
So this increases capacity by an extra 8.000 on the Kop at relatively little cost, however it's not so simple as there would be significant costs regards increasing the number of turn styles, widening entrances/ exits, greatly enlarging the concourse areas and building more and bigger toilets and kiosks. In fact for many stadia a complete re-design would be needed, hence most stadia just install a smaller number of rail seats usually directly behind the goals, not the whole stand.
3: In theory cheaper priced tickets...for example in Germany the average price of standing season tickets in the top flight is currently just under £200.

Please stop with this greatly improved atmosphere its a myth. Pre 80's was a different breed of football fan than to what we have now.
Also what went wrong in the 80's when we had terrible atmosphere most of the time, and you could stand on 3 sides of the ground. I'll tell you what went wrong we were shit for most of that time and no amount of standing did anything to improve the atmosphere.
Atmosphere is improved or dictated by what is happening on the pitch the opposition and amount of away fans.
No amount of safe standing will improve the atmosphere on a Tuesday night in February against Wigan.

 

[Stand United]

In your view Stand United what are the chances of seeing this at BDTBL at any point in the next 2-3 years? I'd say there's no chance personally as I don't see a new owner coming in and paying for this, I also don't see Abdullah paying for it if this sale falls through as he's not going to get any benefit from it himself (assuming the club will still be for sale).

Without promotion, fairly low in that timeframe unless it’s viewed as a priority by a new owner, and lower still without the current issues on the Kop being sorted.

But what has shifted in the past year from our discussions with the club is that it’s no longer a question of whether it’s a desirable thing to bring in if the funding is there. The key people at the club see value in it, understand that this is where clubs are increasingly moving towards, and have engaged others on this too. But given the new training pitch funding came from the playing budget, it shouldn’t come as a surprise that at this present point in time the funding isn’t there, and that the migration situation on the Kop has created an additional part of this to also sort first.

 

[Sheffsteel]

Mentioned this to you previously, but that’s really not on the cards even if there is a shift to allow more than 1:1. It might be for newer builds, but unless there is some major work on the existing Kop to essentially remould the rows (not simple, not cheap), or the SGSA has some sort of about-turn on its overall approach to spacing requirements, it wouldn’t be possible. The only part that could would be the proposed expansion area, if that happens, and again if there is some relaxation to allow more than 1:1.

Think we might be in agreement here.... I've already explained several times it can't be done without a major re-think of the Kop.
I've also explained that this is a valid reason for delaying the Kop rebuild until we know what direction safe standing is going in.

Some people think it's just a case of paying the £1000 per seat (probably increased now) and bolting them on the concrete and then you have a safe standing area but we need to consider the potential of being able to increase the capacity, but that would mean we need to increase all the concourse areas and facilities to cater for that increase.

None of this was incorporated in the McCabe design. If the rules remain at a 1:1 ratio for ever then that design is fine but it would be a shame if the Authorities allow us to increase the ratio (basically increase the capacity for free) but we don't have the infrastructure in place to deal with the extra numbers on the Kop.

 

[Stand United]

Some people think it's just a case of paying the £1000 per seat (probably increased now)

FYI, the rail seats pictured were done for ~£100/seat.

 

[Stand United]

If the rules remain at a 1:1 ratio for ever then that design is fine but it would be a shame if the Authorities allow us to increase the ratio (basically increase the capacity for free) but we don't have the infrastructure in place to deal with the extra numbers on the Kop.

It’s certainly worth considering what might happen further down the line on that, but realistically expanding the numbers past 1:1 is not going to happen in the next 2 years – if indeed it happens at all in England. It’s taken a huge amount of time and effort to get safe standing to a place where it’s now being carefully introduced in the top two leagues – you’re probably looking at 5-10 years before using it as a capacity-increasing tool is on the table, and even then it’s almost certainly not going to be possible for stands that haven’t been built to modern requirements. We really don’t need to wait that long to provide fans with an option to stand while watching United.

 

[Sheffsteel]

It’s certainly worth considering what might happen further down the line on that, but realistically expanding the numbers past 1:1 is not going to happen in the next 2 years – if indeed it happens at all in England. It’s taken a huge amount of time and effort to get safe standing to a place where it’s now being carefully introduced in the top two leagues – you’re probably looking at 5-10 years before using it as a capacity-increasing tool is on the table, and even then it’s almost certainly not going to be possible for stands that haven’t been built to modern requirements. We really don’t need to wait that long to provide fans with an option to stand while watching United.

Fair enough, makes sense.

If we spend any time in the PL (like we all hope) we have a great opportunity to expand the fanbase, especially whilst SWFC are struggling.

but whilst we remain with a 32K capacity stadium we'll going to struggle to attract new (younger) supporters or floating local support (who could eventually become fans).
It's a shame because we could really do with expanding it (somehow) to 36K in the short term.

Will be really interesting if the new owner DOES have plenty of money (accept it's doubtful) and if he IS really ambitious (expect it to be relative ambition).
He might get caught up on a wave of optimism and announce that the McCabe plans go ahead asap (wishful thinking ha ha).
Those plans with a 41K capacity would be plenty and with top class South stand facilities, the face of the club would greatly impress the media and VIP visitors.
Fans don't always appreciate it but our ability to mix it on and off the field compared to other PL clubs puts us on the map, greatly improving our image.