Highbury_Blade
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Out of interest who's workplaces did observe a minutes silence on friday?
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blade too long
we go again
but its still the work space for pro footballers
I accept some have strong feelings regarding those who have lost their lives, in defence of our country but it is as been said done nowadays as a job of choice , knowing theres always a chance of being killed
I myself chose that path , but it was my choice to join up
I didnt expect anyone else to be forced to choose it or mourn if I got killed, it was my decision
I only was in real danger in Ulster , but didnt think about it, reflection is for those that choose to
This year was the first no survivors of world war 1 were present , theres none left
shorehamview
Pink Sambuca drinking World Champion.
In the 90's one of my younger brothers was in the army, and did two tours of Bosnia. Fortunately he came back unscathed. However there will continue to be casualties in our military, and Rememberance Day is for all of them . The British Legion does fantastic work nowadays as it has since it began, and a few quid for a poppy and two lots of two minute silences isn't asking too much, even in this day and age. Is it?
P
pommpey
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Christ. There's some shit being spouted, isn't there?
For the detractor's information: People don't necessary sign up to the armed forces to zero-in on some distant 'rag-head' (my inverted commas) and sort him out with the afterlife. It would be pushing it to find anyone who enjoys watching Afghans, Balkans, Libyans, whoever displaced, brutalised or bombed to shit in the name of our flavour of democracy. But what you're going to have to face is this. Our democracy enables you to choose the least hated set of wankers to make the decisions you don't have to. The armed forces vouchsafes your wonderful right to do so, and has done for a very, very long time now. Were they not there - and were I not involved in providing that safety net for thirty two of my finest years - your right to differ in opinion from the dictat of tyrants would be fabulously short lived. To paraphrase Jack Nicholson in 'A Few Good Men', " ... you need us out on that wall." Now the best that people can do, and that includes those who luxuriously lay back in the tepid water of their freedoms and feel that the protectors of that freedom are misguided and cruel, is to simply say 'thank you', even if the least hated wankers are making them do it by governmental order.
We all know what a fuck up Iraq, Afghanistan and possibly Iran may be. But let's face it. The very, very ... VERY bottom line is that we have radicalised Islamist tyrants controlling the world's remaining energy sources. That in itself is a pretty bleak outlook because if you think this financial snowstorm is hard going, think about what it will be like with Amadinhedjad's spindly grasp around your bollocks. Someone has to put a stop to the woman hating, savage, fascist bastards like the Taleban (go see The Young News Channel for their grisly work against humanity), people like SaddamHussein who will happily gas his own people (Halabja, for example) or a running sore like Ghadaffi (or even Assad) who will happily mete out the nastiness when their own people want a vote for freedom.
When our troops happily climb into transport aircraft and sod off overseas to forward your government's foreign policy, don't blame them, blame your government. And if they die, be grafteful they will be willing to do the will of the government, or the next time the firemen are on strike*, get your sorry, civilian arse into a fire truck and fight your own fucking fires. When people are trapped by swirling floodwaters, pitch up and lend them a hand, instead of sitting quietly in your urban shithole thanking your lucky stars you don't have to. When this country eventually grinds to a standstill because of the upcoming shitstorm of unionised chaos (another beautifil freedom, courtesy of democracy), think which tired, pissed off, battle weary cabbages will be climbing into the vehicles to provide hospitals and the like with their fuels and victuals. Will it be you, Highbury? Not your job, is it?
*Firemen. Shift bonus. Six months work for a year's pay (hence second jobs), plus overtime and extras. And a union to fight ridiculous pay deals (26%) and a right to strike. Soldiers, sailors and airmen. None of the above.
I feel a lot of today's peole have a romanticised vision of past warfare (they fought to protect their own lives and ours as well) and love to denigrate the warfare of today ... just because they can, more than anything. There isn't much difference. Churchill instructed the armed forces to fight. Cameron, Brown and Blair (as much bastards as they are) much the same. Blame them, when you remember. But never forget wpeople who have died. There is no glory in their deaths, just dignity.
Good luck to serving members out in areas of conflict, and those about to go. God's speed.
pommpey
For the detractor's information: People don't necessary sign up to the armed forces to zero-in on some distant 'rag-head' (my inverted commas) and sort him out with the afterlife. It would be pushing it to find anyone who enjoys watching Afghans, Balkans, Libyans, whoever displaced, brutalised or bombed to shit in the name of our flavour of democracy. But what you're going to have to face is this. Our democracy enables you to choose the least hated set of wankers to make the decisions you don't have to. The armed forces vouchsafes your wonderful right to do so, and has done for a very, very long time now. Were they not there - and were I not involved in providing that safety net for thirty two of my finest years - your right to differ in opinion from the dictat of tyrants would be fabulously short lived. To paraphrase Jack Nicholson in 'A Few Good Men', " ... you need us out on that wall." Now the best that people can do, and that includes those who luxuriously lay back in the tepid water of their freedoms and feel that the protectors of that freedom are misguided and cruel, is to simply say 'thank you', even if the least hated wankers are making them do it by governmental order.
We all know what a fuck up Iraq, Afghanistan and possibly Iran may be. But let's face it. The very, very ... VERY bottom line is that we have radicalised Islamist tyrants controlling the world's remaining energy sources. That in itself is a pretty bleak outlook because if you think this financial snowstorm is hard going, think about what it will be like with Amadinhedjad's spindly grasp around your bollocks. Someone has to put a stop to the woman hating, savage, fascist bastards like the Taleban (go see The Young News Channel for their grisly work against humanity), people like SaddamHussein who will happily gas his own people (Halabja, for example) or a running sore like Ghadaffi (or even Assad) who will happily mete out the nastiness when their own people want a vote for freedom.
When our troops happily climb into transport aircraft and sod off overseas to forward your government's foreign policy, don't blame them, blame your government. And if they die, be grafteful they will be willing to do the will of the government, or the next time the firemen are on strike*, get your sorry, civilian arse into a fire truck and fight your own fucking fires. When people are trapped by swirling floodwaters, pitch up and lend them a hand, instead of sitting quietly in your urban shithole thanking your lucky stars you don't have to. When this country eventually grinds to a standstill because of the upcoming shitstorm of unionised chaos (another beautifil freedom, courtesy of democracy), think which tired, pissed off, battle weary cabbages will be climbing into the vehicles to provide hospitals and the like with their fuels and victuals. Will it be you, Highbury? Not your job, is it?
*Firemen. Shift bonus. Six months work for a year's pay (hence second jobs), plus overtime and extras. And a union to fight ridiculous pay deals (26%) and a right to strike. Soldiers, sailors and airmen. None of the above.
I feel a lot of today's peole have a romanticised vision of past warfare (they fought to protect their own lives and ours as well) and love to denigrate the warfare of today ... just because they can, more than anything. There isn't much difference. Churchill instructed the armed forces to fight. Cameron, Brown and Blair (as much bastards as they are) much the same. Blame them, when you remember. But never forget wpeople who have died. There is no glory in their deaths, just dignity.
Good luck to serving members out in areas of conflict, and those about to go. God's speed.
pommpey
very moving post mate
Then we have the rather ridiculous position that (in your view) the minutes silence is only for those who were in the armed forces in WWI from March 1916-1918 and in WWII (conscription throughout) and in the various wars in the 40's and 50's (Palestine, Korea, Suez, Malaya etc - conscription applied throughout); but not for those who served in WWI 1914-16 and in the wars post 1960 (Aden northern Ireland, Falklands, Afghanistan, Iraq etc)
Highbury_Blade
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You're reading far too much into it.
Reminds me about what George Orwell said about the fact that people like him can only be civilized because other people are prepared to be less civilized on his behalf.
What you post though does beg the question as to why anyone joins the armed forces if conditions are so crap and the politicians who order them into battle are such bastards
---------- Post added at 06:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:34 PM ----------
You appeared to be suggesting that it was only those who didn't have a choice who should be remembered on Armistice Day.
There is an issue here about soldiers who die in military operations which are almost universally thought to be "wrong". Should the Germans respect those who died in WWII? Agreed, it wasn't the ordinary soldiers' fault than his country waged an aggressive war, but it couldn't have waged such a war uness ordinary Germans were prepared to fight and participate in it. Wouldn't it have been more courageous to refuse to fight?
More closer to home, doesn't the same apply to, say, British troops who fought at Suez or even in the Iraq war?
im not getting into semantics with you ,i dont want to argue about this
as far as im concerned either you respect the armistice or you dont
It's not semantics and I think it's a valid question to ask as to whether the Germans should honour their WWII dead. They "died for their country" as much as British soldiers.
Bedrock Blade
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Could it be because certain types of people are easily brainwashed into believing that fighting and dying for your country is a heroic and noble thing to do when it's more likely that what they're fighting and dying for is purely political?
As opposed to you and I who are so much more intelligent...
I would be interested if you could give me an example of any war that wasn't fought for political purposes.
Bedrock Blade
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Nope. Sorry can't think of any. Can you?
Rustyblade
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Hockey versus Bremner circa 1973.
Bedrock Blade
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I was trying to offer an answer to your question in post #68 (as in why would anyone join the armed forces.)
Highbury_Blade
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I haven't suggested anything of the sort. My line is that that Remembrance Sunday should be about remembering the 1st and second world war dead, including the civilians that died in those terrible conflicts. When i paid my respects on Friday i was thinking about the 1st and 2nd world war, and how we should remember them specifically so that type of conflict doesn't happen again.
We have an armed forces day to remember those servicemen and women who gave their lives in other conflicts.
What we've effectively got now is 2 days of the year that commemorate pretty much the same thing.
P
pommpey
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People join the armed forces because of the opportunities it offers. I didn't join to get blown up, or shot at. Fuck that. I joined to go round the planet, get wankered, fuck loads of poontang and have a larf. That's what I saw at sixteen, when I boarded the train on 29 May 1979 at Sheffield Midland (the 0702 to Plymouth) When the Falklands blew up three years later, I shat myself. Christ, we're at war. And some of my buddies were killed as well. Would I have gone? Damned right. That's what I was expected to do, that's what my country expected me to do and that is what I expected myself to do. Get killed? Yeah. If it was my time, then so be it. And in every conflict since, I'd happily contribute. You guys expect the armed forces to do exactly what the government wants them to do, however distasteful or unpleasant. Believe me, if we didn't, this country is FUCKED.
As it stands, I left last year, because I could see that thirty years of chipping away and moralistic ineptitude by career politicians would fuck the armed forces in turn. The AF of 2020 ... which this and preceding governments have been aspiring to ... will be a pallid shadow of our former potency. GB plcs Ultimate Selling Point has always been it's balance between political, economic and military capability. All of these are now depleted, all depend upon their corresponding might. We do need a capable military arm of our existence as a country, just as much as we need sound political leadership and underpinning economic growth. As soon as other countries lose the fear of our will to prosecute and execute, the greater the global risk. We showed incredible fortitude in 1982, set aginst some idiotic governmental incomptence ... the Nott Review was stamped by Thatcher, the shithead who profited by Lord Lewin taking her by the hand on 02 April and telling her the Falklands cound be retaken when she was neck deep in the shit.
Servicemen serve, because the country needs servicemen. We do it, and have done it in the face of public ignorance (I wish I had enough space to list the charitable contributions that servicemen get involved in), ambivalence and in some cases, hatred. Someone has to do it, and do it without questionor luxury of association with objectors. We're not robots, we're not heartless automatons, just people who do the government's will. If you have a problem, take it up with the government. You'll find in most cases, we hate them as well.
pommpey
---------- Post added at 08:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:30 PM ----------
FYI. Armed Forces Day isn't solely dedicated to emembrance of war dead. It is more geared toward recognition of the function of the armed forces.
Armistice Day is dedicated to remembrance of all war dead, based upon the armistice of 1918. All people who have died in conflict are remembered, and it is also an uplifting time for reflection and forgiveness.
pommpey
As it stands, I left last year, because I could see that thirty years of chipping away and moralistic ineptitude by career politicians would fuck the armed forces in turn. The AF of 2020 ... which this and preceding governments have been aspiring to ... will be a pallid shadow of our former potency. GB plcs Ultimate Selling Point has always been it's balance between political, economic and military capability. All of these are now depleted, all depend upon their corresponding might. We do need a capable military arm of our existence as a country, just as much as we need sound political leadership and underpinning economic growth. As soon as other countries lose the fear of our will to prosecute and execute, the greater the global risk. We showed incredible fortitude in 1982, set aginst some idiotic governmental incomptence ... the Nott Review was stamped by Thatcher, the shithead who profited by Lord Lewin taking her by the hand on 02 April and telling her the Falklands cound be retaken when she was neck deep in the shit.
Servicemen serve, because the country needs servicemen. We do it, and have done it in the face of public ignorance (I wish I had enough space to list the charitable contributions that servicemen get involved in), ambivalence and in some cases, hatred. Someone has to do it, and do it without questionor luxury of association with objectors. We're not robots, we're not heartless automatons, just people who do the government's will. If you have a problem, take it up with the government. You'll find in most cases, we hate them as well.
pommpey
---------- Post added at 08:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:30 PM ----------
FYI. Armed Forces Day isn't solely dedicated to emembrance of war dead. It is more geared toward recognition of the function of the armed forces.
Armistice Day is dedicated to remembrance of all war dead, based upon the armistice of 1918. All people who have died in conflict are remembered, and it is also an uplifting time for reflection and forgiveness.
pommpey
Bravo Pommpey, ive read thru 4 pages of bollox, bickering and nit picking.
People that REALLY remember do it daily not just 1 day per year for 2 minutes.
Soldiers fight, get maimed, die because thats their job, it feels good that people remember but a lot sometimes would like to forget.
i'll not get into rights or wrongs but sitwell for the players to do what you say they did, is not lack of respect (tho the spitting one could have thought a little before doing so) ask any soldier or ex soldier and they will tell you everyone remembers in their own way, now remembrance day is geared towards all soldiers, not just those that gave their lives but those that fought and fight still so everyone can have their say regardless of stance.
I personally find it hard to stand and be introspective about the deaths nd maimings of friends or family that does not mean i show disrespect, but i remember in my own way...DAILY.
MunXy
People that REALLY remember do it daily not just 1 day per year for 2 minutes.
Soldiers fight, get maimed, die because thats their job, it feels good that people remember but a lot sometimes would like to forget.
i'll not get into rights or wrongs but sitwell for the players to do what you say they did, is not lack of respect (tho the spitting one could have thought a little before doing so) ask any soldier or ex soldier and they will tell you everyone remembers in their own way, now remembrance day is geared towards all soldiers, not just those that gave their lives but those that fought and fight still so everyone can have their say regardless of stance.
I personally find it hard to stand and be introspective about the deaths nd maimings of friends or family that does not mean i show disrespect, but i remember in my own way...DAILY.
MunXy
Well I am puzzled that you typed this then
"Anyone who is in the army nowadays is there through choice. Aside from the pals battalions, those that fought in the 1st world world war were not there through choice."
Why raise the issue of choice if you are not suggesting that those who joined through choice should not be remembered on Armistice Day?
cahill
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Some people just love to be outraged don't they ? Pommpey, Read your high handed moralising first post, difficult though it was, and your second post up to the "I joined to go round the planet, get wankered fuck loads of poontang and have a laugh" after that couldn't be bothered to take it seriously. Before you do your "outraged of Orpington" number on me you should know that my grandfather died at the Somme, my mother was 3 and never knew her father and my father served in the army 1939-45 ending by working at Spandau Prison as a guard with a doberman dog which scared him to death. Funny he never bigged himself up (D-Day+1) or spoke a great deal of his experiences but had a quiet dignity about him. He returned to the mines after demob where he worked until his retirement, dying in 1993. I joined the RAF in 1971 and remember parading at Remembrance day parades. I repeat what I said earlier I was at the match yesterday and thought the players officials and both sets of fans observed the silence impeccably. I'm not going to take offence at players moving their neck or twitching nervously. As I say some folk love to be outraged. Incidentally how did bombing Libyan civilians make my life safer ?
Not neccessarily. Had there been a collective mutiny in 1956 or 2003, I would have been rather pleased.
JJ Sefton
Live, Laugh, Love
Let the Germans do what they want.
P
pommpey
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Okay. If we're in a 'my father' pissing contest, my father spent most of the war in Combined Ops, pushing through France post D Day and on into Italy where he was blown off the road into a ravine near Trieste and shot at by snipers whilst upsdie down in his cab. And that's a very abridged version. He never bigged himself up, either, even when he worked his days at SWD as a mechanic. What has this to do with things? You tell me.
Why Outraged of Opington? Again, not getting you on this. If you're an ex-serving member, then you might recognise some of what I have stated. As a sixteen year old, all the forces could offer me was pissing up and shagging, all at taxpayers expense. War didn't even feature, we were in the throes of an enormous faltulent standoff between us 'good guys' and the blokes with snow on their boots. Remember? But as soon as the shit started ... as in 1982, all bets were off, and were off anyway as Paddy had been having his fun with the boys over in Norn Ire since we don't know when anyways.
Moralising? Well, when people die, and they die for a governmental cause, voluntary or otherwise, its a bit rich to sit on your fat arse and call then cunts when you're enjoying the benfit of calling them cunts courtesy of their being. Go call the armed forces cunts in North Korea, Libya (until recently) China or Iran. You'll find out what freedoms you enjoy before long. So, in essence, there's everything to be moralistic about, wouldn't you say?
Bombing Libyans? Okay. Pin em back. I'll be brief, because you've obv been asleep since March.
1. Libyans suddenly said, 'Fuck this. I'm sick of Ghadaffi. We've all this oil wealth, his family and budies owns most of it and we get fuck all. We want it changed.'
2. Ghadaffi says, 'No you don't, and here's why.'
3. *sound of opposers being arrested, tortured and killed*
4. Opposers get organised, take eastern half of Libya fairly easily. Ghadaffi publically threatens widespread butchery. West says, 'Look, stand down, you mad cunt. Your days are over.'
5. Opressors ask for protection against Ghadaffi's forces, because no one wants another Srebrinichka or Sarajevo where NATO was forced to sit by whilst bastards murdered humans beacause of their adverse situations and opinions and religions.
6. NATO offers to protect rebel forces and assist in the toppling of Ghadaffi's regime. Largely because it suits our needs, and this planet could do without another deluded renegade who serially abuses his people as is his want.
Your life is safer, because the message is clear to people such as Ghadaffi. We will intervene. If you feel warm and selfishly safe, then great. Some people ... like those in Syria, do not. I'd like to think we can do something about it one day. You?
pommpey
---------- Post added at 10:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:32 PM ----------
So, what position would that have left this country? Economically and politically? Do you think such a mutiny would lead to a civil war? In 1956? Just when the Soviet influence is spreading across eastern Europe?
Odd thinking, just to satisfy a belief. The knock on effect of such an action would be disasterous for this country, believe me.
pommpey
JJ Sefton
Live, Laugh, Love
Great grandfather dads side was in the Connaught Rangers, went off to Iraq and died at Kut Al Amara in 1916
Great grandfather dads side was in the Territorials, went into the trenches in 1914 and survived the war
Great grandfather mums side was in the artillery at the Somme and survived the war
Grandfather dads side fought in the Royal Engineers, landed in Operation Torch, fought across Africa and was at Salerno and Cassino. Sent to Greece to train anti Communist fighters in the civil war. Survived the war
Great uncle dads side was in the navy on the Arctic convoys to the Soviet Union. Survied the war
Great uncle dads side went to northern France in 1940, Crete in 1941 and north Africa where he lost his right arm at Alamein. Survived the war
Great uncle mums side was captured by the Japanese in Burma and spent three years in a POW camp. Survived the war
Great uncle on mums side was in the Transport Corps. Drove bulldozers in Belsen piling bodies into lime pits. Survived the war
---------- Post added at 10:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:40 PM ----------
When the military starts to tell civilian authority to get stuffed youve got trouble.
P
pommpey
Guest
Exactly. Ask people standing at the Cenotaph today and they'll remember all people involved in conflict. When I visited Ushuiaia in 2007, we invited a load of Belgrano survivors on board Endurance. There was much collective unity on the subject of war and many friendships were forged. I'm sure people think servicement are programmed to kill, and keep on killing. The truth is the opposite. We'are trained to do it when required and anything outside is training to do so. Someone has to do it. All of us serving and ex- recognise that it isn't everyones cup of tea and is indeed a dirty job. But it is like calling your binman a cunt for emptying your bins. If they didn't do the job,or volunteer to do the job, then the bins would overflow.
pommpey
BladeFisher
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Well the Japanese aren't far behind!! Evil f****ers. What right minded country to this day still tries to pretend that their obscene vile culture in WWII was acceptable? When they go on about Nagasaki and Hiroshima they seem to forget how these bastards beheaded innocent civilians like nurses and their murderous treatment of Malays and Chinese. And as for the treatment of our Burma veterans. The Emprorer should have been shot.
---------- Post added 14-11-2011 at 12:10 AM ---------- Previous post was 13-11-2011 at 11:48 PM ----------
Why should the Germans have refused to fight? One of the things that irritate me is using today's values to judge people from a different era. There is no doubt that had the "victorious allies" conducted a more sensible armistace with Germany much of the indignation felt by the Germans would not be there. Sure no one likes losing, but the conditions in Germany after WWI were awful leading to heavy polarisation of views - communists, fascists. At that time in that era and in part the German culture it was ones duty to fight if in the armed forces. There is enough material now to know that many of Hitlers military commanders realised his tactics were insane but once the state had reached such power it became ineffectual to resist.
Having been fascinated with Germany and how a civilised society in Europe could have fallen for and then carried out much of what it did I can understand it totally. It was an environment of total obedience and fear rolled into one. Even amongst the Nazi elite the factions, duplication of effort and general war management it never ceases to amaze me how they survived so long before defeat. Such a shame the July 20 bomb plot didn't succeed. It might have spared Eastern Europe the Communist yoke and saved America and Britain a shed load of money in fighting the cold war.
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