Where did it all go wrong?

[grafikhaus]

I see that David Moyes is defending Everton's lack of spending ahead of tonight's game, by using United as an example.

'United were a Premier League team four years ago. We have to make sure we (Everton) are not one of the big sides who can quite quickly slip away.'

Now apart from the fact that it must be hard knowing Everton will never again compete with Liverpool (just look at the respective signings), is this a fair comparison/remark?

It's not as if we 'lived the dream' in our season in the PL. Beattie apart, we hardly pushed the boat out, had crowds not far below Everton's and didn't waste money on serial under-performers like Jimmy Bullard.

I think Moyes is just using us as a rather poor analogy of Everton's mis-management.

 

[Micalijo]

I see that David Moyes is defending Everton's lack of spending ahead of tonight's game, by using United as an example.

'United were a Premier League team four years ago. We have to make sure we (Everton) are not one of the big sides who can quite quickly slip away.'

Now apart from the fact that it must be hard knowing Everton will never again compete with Liverpool (just look at the respective signings), is this a fair comparison/remark?

It's not as if we 'lived the dream' in our season in the PL. Beattie apart, we hardly pushed the boat out, had crowds not far below Everton's and didn't waste money on serial under-performers like Jimmy Bullard.

I think Moyes is just using us as a rather poor analogy of Everton's mis-management.

Agree, poor analogy in many ways but I think he is making a reasonable point that Everton could slip into a situation where relegation is a real possibility (although they have been in that position before a few times as we know). You do realise Beattie was signed after we got relegated?

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

I see that David Moyes is defending Everton's lack of spending ahead of tonight's game, by using United as an example.

'United were a Premier League team four years ago. We have to make sure we (Everton) are not one of the big sides who can quite quickly slip away.'

Now apart from the fact that it must be hard knowing Everton will never again compete with Liverpool (just look at the respective signings), is this a fair comparison/remark?

It's not as if we 'lived the dream' in our season in the PL. Beattie apart, we hardly pushed the boat out, had crowds not far below Everton's and didn't waste money on serial under-performers like Jimmy Bullard.

I think Moyes is just using us as a rather poor analogy of Everton's mis-management.

I don't think he's particularly comparing our financial situation to theirs, he did say that he didn't know what our situation was, I just thinking he's using us as a comparison to show how quickly clubs can fall from grace. It does go to show though that even clubs like them, who you probably would put down as a well run sensible club, are struggling financially.

Having said that, they have the likes of Saha and Yakubu not making the team on mega money and are having to rely on kids coming through.................maybe not too different after all.

 

[Patrick Suffaux]

Have to agree with you, the two clubs share very little in common in terms of their recent hisory and management.

Everton have a legacy of Premier League football, where as we have merely flirted with it.

Their ingoings and outgoings (in terms of finance) over the last 20 years will be huge in comparison to ours.

The problem for Everton unlike most Prem clubs, is that they haven't had a wealthy backer financing transfers.

Most clubs in that league are in huge debt but have additional funding to be able to carry it.

 

[grafikhaus]

The problem for Everton unlike most Prem clubs, is that they haven't had a wealthy backer financing transfers.

No but Kenwright can't be too short. Anyway, what is wealthy? The day of t'local mill baron have long gone and Man. City and Chelsea make everybody else comparative paupers.

What does seem to give teams a massive leg-up is having a brand new ground built for them. Bolton, Stoke, Southampton, Brighton (how did they pull that off?) etc. Certainly frees up the cash for transfers & youth development. We, on the other hand have paid for every bit of our ground. In fact, some attempts to improve it have been firmly scuppered by SCC.

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

It will take the fall of a big club before the Premier League put a stop to the obscene amount of money being played to players. I have my doubts that it'll be Everton, I don't think Kenwright would let it happen but I don't think it'll be long before we see one of the big boys crash.

 

[Patrick Suffaux]

This is true and I think it will be someone massive (not the piggies ), a club no one currently expects.

 

[axel smeets]

Yes, but for years we've all said 'it'll be a big boy that falls out'. Let's not forget the implosion at Leeds was a big club that almost went to the wall. They went from European Cup Semi Finalists in May 2001 to Championship football in August 2004.

Also, the comparison with Everton I agree is ridiculous. We've only playes them twice in Moyes' time as manager at Goodison. Everton have always been one of the top 7-8 clubs traditionally, with a legacy of the most seasons ever for top flight football. We have spent 5 years out of the last 35 in the top flight and 7 of those 35 years in the bottom two divisions.

If Everton dropped out of the PL, it would be, IMO, the biggest club relegated since Man Utd in 1974. It would be massive news.

 

[Darren]

If Everton dropped out of the PL, it would be, IMO, the biggest club relegated since Man Utd in 1974. It would be massive news.

Spurs 1977? Newcastle 2009?

 

[Oreyt]

This is true and I think it will be someone massive (not the piggies ), a club no one currently expects.

Say it does happen (and haven't people been saying it'll happen for years now) why do you think it will change anything? I think too many people have a vested interest in keeping things as they are. Any clubs folding will be put down to indivdual mismanagement, not a fault with the system overall.

 

[davidpinder]

We all know the year which they should have gone down but thats another story.

 

[axel smeets]

Spurs 1977? Newcastle 2009?

Spurs 1977 I'll give ya, but not Newcastle 2009. They're big, but haven't won dot since 1969. Everton carry a bigger reputation IMO.

 

[grafikhaus]

I can't see a truly 'massive' team failing (and by that, I mean going bust, not just relegated). The reason is football, like the banks is one big, corrupt, rotten monster and the powers-that-be would ensure no cracks appear in the stinking edifice. ('Too big to fail' bollox.)

How many clubs have cried wolf over the years? Been 'hours from extinction'? Leicester? Middlesbrough? Portsmouth? To name but a few (and I'm not counting teams like Barrow etc.) Like some teams get punished for indiscretions more than others (Luton, Rotherham compared to the insolvently-trading Wednesday), there will always be little fish to make an example of.

Tell you who could be on the brink of trouble though. Not admin. Not going to the wall. But a massive fall from grace. Arsenal.

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

Say it does happen (and haven't people been saying it'll happen for years now) why do you think it will change anything? I think too many people have a vested interest in keeping things as they are. Any clubs folding will be put down to indivdual mismanagement, not a fault with the system overall.

You may be right and as it's flavour of the month, there'll be another mega rich buyer waiting to step in and have his own club to play with.

That's one of the good things about this season, the away games have been like a flashback to the 80s when football was a fans game !

 

[bladeinspaceandtime]

Yes, but for years we've all said 'it'll be a big boy that falls out'. Let's not forget the implosion at Leeds was a big club that almost went to the wall. They went from European Cup Semi Finalists in May 2001 to Championship football in August 2004.

Also, the comparison with Everton I agree is ridiculous. We've only playes them twice in Moyes' time as manager at Goodison. Everton have always been one of the top 7-8 clubs traditionally, with a legacy of the most seasons ever for top flight football. We have spent 5 years out of the last 35 in the top flight and 7 of those 35 years in the bottom two divisions.

If Everton dropped out of the PL, it would be, IMO, the biggest club relegated since Man Utd in 1974. It would be massive news.

I'm not sure anyone would be that bothered if Everton got relegated (apart from Everton fans, obviously)

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

I'm not sure anyone would be that bothered if Everton got relegated (apart from Everton fans, obviously)

Do you reckon Jags has a relegation clause

 

[boo radley]

We didnt have Beattie in the prem did we?

 

[Micalijo]

It will take the fall of a big club before the Premier League put a stop to the obscene amount of money being played to players. I have my doubts that it'll be Everton, I don't think Kenwright would let it happen but I don't think it'll be long before we see one of the big boys crash.

Christ - you sound like Bob the Builder. 'Heh Seth, mark my words some football clubs will go out of business.' Yes, that's right Kev.

Also, I think the parachutes now mean that even if the unthinkable happens to a club like Everton, if they handle the shock correctly promotion at first attempt is virtually guaranteed.

 

[grafikhaus]

We didnt have Beattie in the prem did we?

No, my mistake but Beattie was our one serious attempt at getting straight back and his leaving was, for me, the catalyst for all that followed.

 

[Oreyt]

You may be right and as it's flavour of the month, there'll be another mega rich buyer waiting to step in and have his own club to play with.

It's all to easy for the powers that be to claim that everything's rosey: ''Football on it's arse? Look at the gates! Look at Sky subscriptions! Look at the shirt sales overseas! Tickets too much? You obviously don't appreciate the quality of product !'' etc etc.

The ONLY thing IMHO that would change things would be a collective decision by fans to boycott games. But that won't happen, because people love watching football and they more importantly they love their teams. 'They' (whoever you define that as) have got us over a barrel.

 

[Rustyblade]

I see that David Moyes is defending Everton's lack of spending ahead of tonight's game, by using United as an example.

'United were a Premier League team four years ago. We have to make sure we (Everton) are not one of the big sides who can quite quickly slip away.'

Now apart from the fact that it must be hard knowing Everton will never again compete with Liverpool (just look at the respective signings), is this a fair comparison/remark?

It's not as if we 'lived the dream' in our season in the PL. Beattie apart, we hardly pushed the boat out, had crowds not far below Everton's and didn't waste money on serial under-performers like Jimmy Bullard.

I think Moyes is just using us as a rather poor analogy of Everton's mis-management.

I think it's fair comment regarding the ease with which some clubs can slip into relegation trouble.

Maybe ours is not exactly analogous to their position but given the fact they're playing us tonight, it's hardly surprising he used us as a comparison.

 

[Darren]

Spurs 1977 I'll give ya, but not Newcastle 2009. They're big, but haven't won dot since 1969. Everton carry a bigger reputation IMO.

How about Leeds 1982 and 2004? 7 years after being in a European Cup final and 3 years after being in a European semi respectively (Man Utd were relegated in 74 six years after winning the European cup but had won nowt since then).

---------- Post added at 10:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:08 AM ----------

It's all to easy for the powers that be to claim that everything's rosey: ''Football on it's arse? Look at the gates! Look at Sky subscriptions! Look at the shirt sales overseas! Tickets too much? You obviously don't appreciate the quality of product !'' etc etc.

The ONLY thing IMHO that would change things would be a collective decision by fans to boycott games. But that won't happen, because people love watching football and they more importantly they love their teams. 'They' (whoever you define that as) have got us over a barrel.

It's the wonder of the free market. If you have an irrational emotional attachment to something, those with control of that something will use that control to squeeze as much money out of you as possible by playing on that attachment.

 

[Oreyt]

It's the wonder of the free market. If you have an irrational emotional attachment to something, those with control of that something will use that control to squeeze as much money out of you as possible by playing on that attachment.

I fear you may have seized control of the bus there and driven it straight down the Darren-Walthamstow Memorial Cul-De-Sac.

 

[boo radley]

No, my mistake but Beattie was our one serious attempt at getting straight back and his leaving was, for me, the catalyst for all that followed.

The sacking or mutual agreement of Warnock to leave was where it went wrong. The very vocal fans calling for him to leave are as much to blame as the chaiman who at that time thought he should listen to that quite sizeable group.

 

[grafikhaus]

The sacking or mutual agreement of Warnock to leave was where it went wrong. The very vocal fans calling for him to leave are as much to blame as the chaiman who at that time thought he should listen to that quite sizeable group.

Yeah, I'll go with that.

Another obvious example of 'them' protecting those perceived as 'massive' or 'big' (or, in the case of West Ham, everybody's favourite 'other club'...) is, should misfortune strike, here's £44m to help you back into the club, old boy.

 

[Revolution]

The sacking or mutual agreement of Warnock to leave was where it went wrong. The very vocal fans calling for him to leave are as much to blame as the chaiman who at that time thought he should listen to that quite sizeable group.

1 point earned by 4-5-1 away from home
8 goals in 19 away games
no more than one goal in any away match
Leggy and Monty in central midfield
Ahmed Fathi
Luton Shelton
an injured Matthew Kilgallon
Calamity Claude
Geoff Horsfield
Jags at Right Back
Asking for a new contract before the Wigan game

 

[Darren]

The sacking or mutual agreement of Warnock to leave was where it went wrong. The very vocal fans calling for him to leave are as much to blame as the chaiman who at that time thought he should listen to that quite sizeable group.

1 point earned by 4-5-1 away from home
8 goals in 19 away games
no more than one goal in any away match
Leggy and Monty in central midfield
Ahmed Fathi
Luton Shelton
an injured Matthew Kilgallon
Calamity Claude
Geoff Horsfield
Jags at Right Back
Asking for a new contract before the Wigan game

But to be fair we were only relegated by the narrowest of margins and with enough points to have kept us up most years. That in a season when most commentators thought we were certs for relegation.

Yes NW did make lots of mistakes but United did better than most people were predicting at the start of that seasons.

 

[dutchblade]

For me it went wrong when Hulse broke his leg at Chelsea away. After that we could not score.

 

[Darren]

For me it went wrong when Hulse broke his leg at Chelsea away. After that we could not score.

Not actually correct. After the Chelsea game we scored 7 goals in 8 games as opposed to 25 in 30 up to and including the Chelsea game. So our scoring record was actually better after Hulse broke his leg.

 

[Revolution]

But to be fair we were only relegated by the narrowest of margins and with enough points to have kept us up most years. That in a season when most commentators thought we were certs for relegation.

Yes NW did make lots of mistakes but United did better than most people were predicting at the start of that seasons.

These things are true, but the "lots of mistakes" gave McCabe every reason to can Warnock, particularly given his behaviour in the run up to the Wigan game. Even ignoring all the crap Warnock signed, there was ample talent in the squad for a half decent manager to take us back up, as Blackwell proved when he took over. Unfortunately, before that happened, McCabe appointed a terrible manager for reasons that I still do not understand.