Are we planning to keep playing 352?

[Mojo]

Quality isn't a constant. It's quite a transient thing. Just because you showed flickers of quality one year, it doesn't directly correlate that it'll be the same the next year.

Whether that's down to injury, board interference, bad transfers, lunar cycles - the fact remains we are woefully short on anything close to PL level quality this season...

That's top level sport. Dave Brailsford didn't have multiple Tour De France winners by resting on his laurels... We haven't moved forwards this season (whatever the reasons) and that's what's killed us...

I'm not suggesting we keep playing Robinson at LCB and Lundstram in a flat 3. I'm talking about putting players and quality in to make the system shine again, hopefully with our original back 3.

 

[Upton_Blade]

We haven't the speed, talent, aggression or direction to play three in the middle. Look at the key moments this season where we have looked a lot better - down to ten with 4-4-1 against Brighton away for example.

It would have to be a variant of 4-4-2 - 4-3-1-2, 4-1-3-2, 4-1-2-1-2 or 4-5-1 if we are defending a lead,

pommpey

If we're talking formations I really like way the way Bielsa sets Leeds up and the flexibility "in game" it offers. Now I'm not saying we'll get anyone near his level (£8m pa wage), and the players have to be supremely fit and athletic (another issue), but it's not a bad blueprint to look at.

It essentially starts as a 4141 with Phillips as the destroyer in front of the back 4 and Bamford up top but, having watched them a fair bit this season, it switches to 21421 when they're attacking and either 4321 or 4411 when they're on the back foot.

 

[IdLiketoRogerMoore]

I think the warning signs were there at the back end of last season, and we were hoping that things would be addressed by our Summer business. JOC getting injured was a blow, but it shouldn't have been terminal.

Absolutely. We had synopsis of where it was going but did very little to stop it.

Losing JOC was a big blow but didn't stop Norwood ageing 10 years and his legs going, Lundstram mailing it in, Stevens falling off a cliff physically and Tufty not knowing his best front 2 for almost 30 games... But I feel I'm in an ever decreasing circle and I want to get off...

 

[IdLiketoRogerMoore]

I'm not suggesting we keep playing Robinson at LCB and Lundstram in a flat 3. I'm talking about putting players and quality in to make the system shine again, hopefully with our original back 3.

My original point isn't about specific players. Hell we've tried every conceivable combination of CBs, midfield and CFs and the over-riding conclusion is that none of them are good enough. Maybe one day they will be. Maybe last year they were. However, this year the evidence is simply, they're not good enough.

 

[The Crab]

Absolutely. We had synopsis of where it was going but did very little to stop it.

Losing JOC was a big blow but didn't stop Norwood ageing 10 years and his legs going, Lundstram mailing it in, Stevens falling off a cliff physically and Tufty not knowing his best front 2 for almost 30 games... But I feel I'm in an ever decreasing circle and I want to get off...

I think with hindsight, did any of us know the best front two? I don't think I saw too many performances that made me think "yeah he deserves a run". There were one or two things that couldn't be foreseen, but quite a lot that should have been.

Fail to prepare.............

 

[Swannyblade]

Knilly kept on and he probably invented it.
Our whole squad and club is set up for it, including the youth teams.
We have had tremendous success using it.
It gave us something novel and unique as a club as well as a playing identity which was something we lacked for years.


If we go back to 3412 with RND, Bogle and a class creative attacking midfielder, I could see it working well.

People say the formation was found out this season but I don't think it was, we just didn't have the overlapping play or the confidence or form to make it work again.

Would a new manager be willing to come in and adopt that formation and maybe even try and refine it further?

If we did keep the formation maybe that would appease some of our fans as it would kind of be Wilders legacy to the club

We'll be seeing this formation until the end of the season.
I've no objection to sticking with it longer term as long as we have a viable Plan and the players available to enact it. At the the moment our Plan B is take Bash off, switch to a back four and end up with a load of square pegs in round holes. I know we've suffered badly with injuries but Wilder has to shoulder some of the responsibility for this - the recruitment and neglect of the midfield in the Summer was piss poor.

 

[metalblade]

Knilly kept on and he probably invented it.
Our whole squad and club is set up for it, including the youth teams.
We have had tremendous success using it.
It gave us something novel and unique as a club as well as a playing identity which was something we lacked for years.


If we go back to 3412 with RND, Bogle and a class creative attacking midfielder, I could see it working well.

People say the formation was found out this season but I don't think it was, we just didn't have the overlapping play or the confidence or form to make it work again.

Would a new manager be willing to come in and adopt that formation and maybe even try and refine it further?

If we did keep the formation maybe that would appease some of our fans as it would kind of be Wilders legacy to the club

What we have been playing is intended to be 3-5-2 but I'm with pommpey on this, teams know how to combat it now with their own overloads out wide to win the ball and they knock the ball down the channels behind our wing backs. Our 3-5-2 quickly become 5-3-2 the midfield gets over run and our strikers isolated. We were too dependant on one system and we need to be able to change formations seamlessly to progress.

 

[IdLiketoRogerMoore]

What we have been playing is intended to be 3-5-2 but I'm with pommpey on this, teams know how to combat it now with their own overloads out wide to win the ball and they knock the ball down the channels behind our wing backs. Our 3-5-2 quickly become 5-3-2 the midfield gets over run and our strikers isolated. We were too dependant on one system and we need to be able to change formations seamlessly to progress.

Exactly it becomes 5-3-2 because we see so little of the ball and when we do, we invariably lose it after 2 passes...

It's the quality of players that's rendering the system redundant...

 

[Mojo]

What we have been playing is intended to be 3-5-2 but I'm with pommpey on this, teams know how to combat it now with their own overloads out wide to win the ball and they knock the ball down the channels behind our wing backs. Our 3-5-2 quickly become 5-3-2 the midfield gets over run and our strikers isolated. We were too dependant on one system and we need to be able to change formations seamlessly to progress.

I don't think teams did work out how to combat it, we just have just not been able to play it right this season.

 

[ancientblade]

We haven't the speed, talent, aggression or direction to play three in the middle. Look at the key moments this season where we have looked a lot better - down to ten with 4-4-1 against Brighton away for example.

It would have to be a variant of 4-4-2 - 4-3-1-2, 4-1-3-2, 4-1-2-1-2 or 4-5-1 if we are defending a lead,

pommpey

see what your saying pommp but when your playing 433 the 2 wide forwards drop deeper when we havent got the ball giving us 5 in midfield sort of 433 attack wise 451 when were defending but you are right about pace we havent got it just now so will need a pretty big clearout and new additions if we decide to change shape but still think eddie howe is the perfect man for the job

 

[The Crab]

Exactly it becomes 5-3-2 because we see so little of the ball and when we do, we invariably lose it after 2 passes...

It's the quality of players that's rendering the system redundant...

Exactly.

It's like Lewis Hamilton swapping his Mercedes for a Citroen C3 and expecting the same result

 

[Addison]

If we're talking formations I really like way the way Bielsa sets Leeds up and the flexibility "in game" it offers. Now I'm not saying we'll get anyone near his level (£8m pa wage), and the players have to be supremely fit and athletic (another issue), but it's not a bad blueprint to look at.

It essentially starts as a 4141 with Phillips as the destroyer in front of the back 4 and Bamford up top but, having watched them a fair bit this season, it switches to 21421 when they're attacking and either 4321 or 4411 when they're on the back foot.

This approach for me too. I'd just like us to develop a front foot style of play that encourages players to be capable of adapting to more than1 system depending on the opposition. It keeps the other side guessing and enables the recruitment net to be cast wider.

The levels of fitness displayed by Bielsa's team are what I want to see from SUFC players requiring an overhaul of our conditioning. It feels wrong to praise Weeds but unfortunately they are on a different level at the moment

 

[Mojo]

Hypothetical question I know, but if we did keep Knill and tuftyball aka 352/3412 and managed to tweak it further and make it even more successful, would Wilder be pissed off??

Another hypothetical question, will Wilder ever play this system again at a different club?

 

[Upton_Blade]

This approach for me too. I'd just like us to develop a front foot style of play that encourages players to be capable of adapting to more than1 system depending on the opposition. It keeps the other side guessing and enables the recruitment net to be cast wider.

The levels of fitness displayed by Bielsa's team are what I want to see from SUFC players requiring an overhaul of our conditioning. It feels wrong to praise Weeds but unfortunately they are on a different level at the moment

Yeah I really don't like praising them. Almost feels dirty but he's got it spot on as far as how he sets them up and the amount of flexibility it allows them is superb.

The absolute crux of the formation though is that the middle 4, the whole team do TBF, have to be extremely fit to be able to get up and down. If not the gap between them and Bamford would be too big and be reminiscent of the gap between our flat 3 and strikers when Didzy doesn't play to link them up.

Just as an example if we were to adopt the above formation then it shows just how short we are in certain areas.

..............................................Rammers.................................................
.................................Bogle Egan JOC RND......................................
...........................................New Signing..............................................
.............Burke (?) New Signing Fleck (?) New Signing.............
....................................Brewster/McBurnie.........................................

That's at the very least 3 signings straight into the 1st 11 with serious question marks over the entire MF.

I truly get the thought behind taking our time with the new appointment as no point rushing into it especially if they are dead set on a DOF as probably best to get them in 1st to help pick the manager but I can't help but think it would be beneficial for the new man to have some games this season to use his preferred formation to see where the recruitment needs to be in the summer.

 

[Addison]

Yeah I really don't like praising them. Almost feels dirty but he's got it spot on as far as how he sets them up and the amount of flexibility it allows them is superb.

The absolute crux of the formation though is that the middle 4, the whole team do TBF, have to be extremely fit to be able to get up and down. If not the gap between them and Bamford would be too big and be reminiscent of the gap between our flat 3 and strikers when Didzy doesn't play to link them up.

Just as an example if we were to adopt the above formation then it shows just how short we are in certain areas.

..............................................Rammers.................................................
.................................Bogle Egan JOC RND......................................
...........................................New Signing..............................................
.............Burke (?) New Signing Fleck (?) New Signing.............
....................................Brewster/McBurnie.........................................

That's at the very least 3 signings straight into the 1st 11 with serious question marks over the entire MF.

I truly get the thought behind taking our time with the new appointment as no point rushing into it especially if they are dead set on a DOF as probably best to get them in 1st to help pick the manager but I can't help but think it would be beneficial for the new man to have some games this season to use his preferred formation to see where the recruitment needs to be in the summer.

Agree entirely on this its a point I made in another post.

 

[alcoblade]

The problem with the overlapping centre backs is that you need a quality, left footed centre half who can carry the ball and cross. They are “one in a million”, and are really hard to find, and even more difficult to hold on to.

We might get chance again with JOC until he proves his fitness (or not), but I’m not sure it’s a sustainable philosophy, more something we could utilise because we stumbled across the players who could.

 

[Bergen Blade]

I worry that teams will play us off the park if we set up like at Leicester. We had too many players unable to make an impact on the game. I think two strikers is a luxury, as is three centre halves. It leaves us with a midfield that is simply not able to get close to opponents.

I suggest we try 4-5-1 and do our best to compete in midfield and hopefully hit them on the break a couple of times.

Ramsdale
Baldock Ampadu Jagielka Stevens (or Bryan?)
Bogle Basham Fleck Osborn Lowe
Burke

I wouldn't expect much possession whoever we put out. If the game becomes similar to Brighton away and we look difficult to break down, I think that's pretty much the best we can hope for.

 

[BushBlade]

Yeah I really don't like praising them. Almost feels dirty but he's got it spot on as far as how he sets them up and the amount of flexibility it allows them is superb.

The absolute crux of the formation though is that the middle 4, the whole team do TBF, have to be extremely fit to be able to get up and down. If not the gap between them and Bamford would be too big and be reminiscent of the gap between our flat 3 and strikers when Didzy doesn't play to link them up.

Just as an example if we were to adopt the above formation then it shows just how short we are in certain areas.

..............................................Rammers.................................................
.................................Bogle Egan JOC RND......................................
...........................................New Signing..............................................
.............Burke (?) New Signing Fleck (?) New Signing.............
....................................Brewster/McBurnie.........................................

That's at the very least 3 signings straight into the 1st 11 with serious question marks over the entire MF.

I truly get the thought behind taking our time with the new appointment as no point rushing into it especially if they are dead set on a DOF as probably best to get them in 1st to help pick the manager but I can't help but think it would be beneficial for the new man to have some games this season to use his preferred formation to see where the recruitment needs to be in the summer.

Yeah, I’d expect the DoF to be appointed first and be part of the recruitment process. I can’t see too many decent managers being prepared to join a club knowing he’ll be answering to a DoF but not knowing who it will be. Imagine taking the job and then the DoF turns out to be the bloke Villa sacked last season for his poor recruitment.

 

[bakeblade]

Knilly kept on and he probably invented it.
Our whole squad and club is set up for it, including the youth teams.
We have had tremendous success using it.
It gave us something novel and unique as a club as well as a playing identity which was something we lacked for years.


If we go back to 3412 with RND, Bogle and a class creative attacking midfielder, I could see it working well.

People say the formation was found out this season but I don't think it was, we just didn't have the overlapping play or the confidence or form to make it work again.

Would a new manager be willing to come in and adopt that formation and maybe even try and refine it further?

If we did keep the formation maybe that would appease some of our fans as it would kind of be Wilders legacy to the club

Moving forward I'd like to see us with a more flexible system, based on the opposition and which players we have available at the time. To base the entire club on 1 system seems incredibly shortsighted to me.

 

[Badger Blade]

I feel like 4 at the back has to be a starting point for us in the Championship, it's not an alien concept to any professional footballer. We aren't there to contain and attempt to nick a goal by fluke like we are at the moment. I'd sooner we had the bodies forward to begin with than be relying on Basham and O'Connell for our creative spark simply because the midfield doesn't have any. We only ever did the overlapping centre backs because in League One, teams would park the bus and we had players capable at the time of implementing the system, it worked so we carried on. Difference now is that its stopped working but we've persisted with it anyway.
We need another option than relying on crosses (which take an age to come in) to score a goal. When's the last time we saw a defence splitting pass to send someone in behind to score, Mousset vs Man United, McBurnie vs Brighton? Both over a year ago.

If it was me in charge I'd go with a 4-2-3-1 with a distributor and a ball winner in midfield (Norwood/Berge and Osborn to do the Nick Montgomery job) which can become a 4-5-1 in defence if you drop your 3 in alongside or a 4-4-2/4-4-1-1 in attack with the middle of the 3 pushing forward.

 

[pommpey]

This is why we shouldn't stick to 5-3-2

So, What Has Gone Wrong?

pommpey

 

[bakeblade]

I worry that teams will play us off the park if we set up like at Leicester. We had too many players unable to make an impact on the game. I think two strikers is a luxury, as is three centre halves. It leaves us with a midfield that is simply not able to get close to opponents.

I suggest we try 4-5-1 and do our best to compete in midfield and hopefully hit them on the break a couple of times.

Ramsdale
Baldock Ampadu Jagielka Stevens (or Bryan?)
Bogle Basham Fleck Osborn Lowe
Burke

I wouldn't expect much possession whoever we put out. If the game becomes similar to Brighton away and we look difficult to break down, I think that's pretty much the best we can hope for.

That's the formation I've been hoping to see over the last few months, with a deeper back line. It should make us much harder to score against and therefore harder to beat.

 

[Mojo]

I disagree that it has been found out. However I do agree that if we don't have the personell for it, it becomes a very negative formation.

We absolutely dominated teams in the championship playing it

I totally agree on the point that it can not be the only system and formation we can play. Hence my thoughts on whether a new manager could tweak and adapt it further. But I guess if knilly is not going to be here it's all a moot point anyway.

 

[Swannyblade]

I worry that teams will play us off the park if we set up like at Leicester. We had too many players unable to make an impact on the game. I think two strikers is a luxury, as is three centre halves. It leaves us with a midfield that is simply not able to get close to opponents.

I suggest we try 4-5-1 and do our best to compete in midfield and hopefully hit them on the break a couple of times.

Ramsdale
Baldock Ampadu Jagielka Stevens (or Bryan?)
Bogle Basham Fleck Osborn Lowe
Burke

I wouldn't expect much possession whoever we put out. If the game becomes similar to Brighton away and we look difficult to break down, I think that's pretty much the best we can hope for.

The neglect shown towards our midfield this year has been mind boggling, as has the commitment to a front two. We've essentially had a back five, a gaping chasm and two isolated strikers. If you pin our wingbacks back, you negate any attacking threat and beat us. This issue has been exacerbated by the absence of JOC as there have been no overloads down the left hand side without him (despite trying many square pegs in the round hole, all of whom have proved incapable of fulfilling the role). I think our midfielders have been poor this season, but it's no surprise they have been overrun when you consider the circumstances. The only time we have looked anywhere near decent, is when Didzy has played and dropped deeper to bridge the gap between midfield and attack.

 

[IdLiketoRogerMoore]

The neglect shown towards our midfield this year has been mind boggling, as has the commitment to a front two. We've essentially had a back five, a gaping chasm and two isolated strikers. If you pin our wingbacks back, you negate any attacking threat and beat us. This issue has been exacerbated by the absence of JOC as there have been no overloads down the left hand side without him (despite trying many square pegs in the round hole, all of whom have proved incapable of fulfilling the role). I think our midfielders have been poor this season, but it's no surprise they have been overrun when you consider the circumstances. The only time we have looked anywhere near decent, is when Didzy has played and dropped deeper to bridge the gap between midfield and attack.

Our midfield is currently so poor, it doesn't matter what formation we play. We've been outworked, outmuscled, out run in pretty much every game this season. Playing 3 at the back, 4 at the back won't make any difference.

As the PL has gotten more athletic in midfield, we've got less athletic.

 

[Bennyand the Blades]

I think what happened was we lost the driving force behind our system when we lost our on field leader, it started to get worse when JOC got injured and fell to pieces when he finally had his operation.
He was the man that made the whole thing tick and when he went that's when the whole system collapsed.....

 

[Swannyblade]

Our midfield is currently so poor, it doesn't matter what formation we play. We've been outworked, outmuscled, out run in pretty much every game this season. Playing 3 at the back, 4 at the back won't make any difference.

As the PL has gotten more athletic in midfield, we've got less athletic.

When i say neglect towards the midfield I mean in terms of recruitment as well. There's no excuse for not signing a RCM last summer. Lundstram made it clear he didn't want to sign the offered contract, yet still he finds himself in the starting 11 because there is simply no other available option.
We have been out muscled, out run and out worked, but we've also been outnumbered. There's been no outlet for the defence apart from a hopeful punt up to the forwards. Even if they win the ball, there's no midfield support for them.
If the back 3 becomes a flat back 5, all you're doing is losing a player from further up the pitch. You've then got two options, swap one of the defenders for an additional midfielder or sacrifice a striker. If you don't do either, you sacrifice possession and keep inviting the opposition onto your defence (and the state of our makeshift defence, it's only a matter of time until it crumbles.

 

[Swannyblade]

I think what happened was we lost the driving force behind our system when we lost our on field leader, it started to get worse when JOC got injured and fell to pieces when he finally had his operation.
He was the man that made the whole thing tick and when he went that's when the whole system collapsed.....

And that's poor management by Wilder because the warning signs were there post lockdown last season and it was clear J Robinson wasn't the answer.

 

[IdLiketoRogerMoore]

When i say neglect towards the midfield I mean in terms of recruitment as well. There's no excuse for not signing a RCM last summer. Lundstram made it clear he didn't want to sign the offered contract, yet still he finds himself in the starting 11 because there is simply no other available option.
We have been out muscled, out run and out worked, but we've also been outnumbered. There's been no outlet for the defence apart from a hopeful punt up to the forwards. Even if they win the ball, there's no midfield support for them.
If the back 3 becomes a flat back 5, all you're doing is losing a player from further up the pitch. You've then got two options, swap one of the defenders for an additional midfielder or sacrifice a striker. If you don't do either, you sacrifice possession and keep inviting the opposition onto your defence (and the state of our makeshift defence, it's only a matter of time until it crumbles.

Yep. The lack of movement and athleticism has hurt too. If you look back at the start of last season our midfield 3 covered every blade of grass. This season it looks like we've shifted to defending gaps and staying in position rather than pressing all over and being dragged out of position.

 

[Balham]

Yep. The lack of movement and athleticism has hurt too. If you look back at the start of last season our midfield 3 covered every blade of grass. This season it looks like we've shifted to defending gaps and staying in position rather than pressing all over and being dragged out of position.

It's not just that. Last season, Stevens and Baldock played high enough up to effectively make a midfield 5 which in turn reduced the amount of ground the central three had to cover. Leicester were the first to exploit the gaps in the channels behind the wingbacks last season, we reacted by tweaking Baldock and Stevens' responsibilities slightly to make them more defensive but the knock-on of that is that the midfield three suddenly had an extra 40% of the pitch to cover.

My main criticism of Wilder is that has been obvious to me as a lay person for months but we've done absolutely nothing to counter it. Either switch from a back five to a back four or drop one of the strikers back into midfield. Don't tie up nearly half your outfield players in positions which have been outmaneuvered (three centre halves typically marking one central forward; two centre forwards isolated), do something to counter it.