Are we planning to keep playing 352?

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Mojo

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Knilly kept on and he probably invented it.
Our whole squad and club is set up for it, including the youth teams.
We have had tremendous success using it.
It gave us something novel and unique as a club as well as a playing identity which was something we lacked for years.


If we go back to 3412 with RND, Bogle and a class creative attacking midfielder, I could see it working well.

People say the formation was found out this season but I don't think it was, we just didn't have the overlapping play or the confidence or form to make it work again.

Would a new manager be willing to come in and adopt that formation and maybe even try and refine it further?

If we did keep the formation maybe that would appease some of our fans as it would kind of be Wilders legacy to the club
 

Mate, stop kidding yourself it has ever been '3-5-2'

This seasons formation has been largely '5-3-2'. We can't play 3-5-2 because of the weaknesses at the back and the fact that 3-5-2 was devised to facilitate overlapping wingbacks, and get up the flanks a-la Wilderball. Since the back three have been effectively one man down and now three men down, no advances up either flank have taken place and if we do, because oppositions are wise to it, they stick four out there to block it and force us back, or more often into giving possession up from which they just run on and score. We are playing a system we don't have the players for any more. Consequently we find ourselves utilising the wingbacks deeper to supplement the weak back line, that leaves a pretty pisspoor midfield outnumbered and easy to get past so the midfield park themselves in front of the centrebacks leaving which ever poor fucker picked to go up front sat thumbing their scone-cutters up on the halfway line. No one gets the ball to them (the midfield is too far away and unable to support if they get the ball) and no one gets round the centre backs to get a cross in. And don't even think about having a crack on goa from outside the box. Only Didsy is allowed to do thayt.

They system is fucked. Wilder said it was okay though, so everyone just says 3-5-2 like it's some kinda lifesaving mantra. Never mind it has got us roundly tubbed twenty off times this season.

Now, repeat after me: '5-3-2'. '5-3-2'. '5-3-2'.

Good.

pommpey
 
pommpey said:
Mate, stop kidding yourself it has ever been '3-5-2'

This seasons formation has been largely '5-3-2'. We can't play 3-5-2 because of the weaknesses at the back and the fact that 3-5-2 was devised to facilitate overlapping wingbacks, and get up the flanks a-la Wilderball. Since the back three have been effectively one man down and now three men down, no advances up either flank have taken place and if we do, because oppositions are wise to it, they stick four out there to block it and force us back, or more often into giving possession up from which they just run on and score. We are playing a system we don't have the players for any more. Consequently we find ourselves utilising the wingbacks deeper to supplement the weak back line, that leaves a pretty pisspoor midfield outnumbered and easy to get past so the midfield park themselves in front of the centrebacks leaving which ever poor fucker picked to go up front sat thumbing their scone-cutters up on the halfway line. No one gets the ball to them (the midfield is too far away and unable to support if they get the ball) and no one gets round the centre backs to get a cross in. And don't even think about having a crack on goa from outside the box. Only Didsy is allowed to do thayt.

They system is fucked. Wilder said it was okay though, so everyone just says 3-5-2 like it's some kinda lifesaving mantra. Never mind it has got us roundly tubbed twenty off times this season.

Now, repeat after me: '5-3-2'. '5-3-2'. '5-3-2'.

Good.

pommpey
Click to expand...
Lets call it a back 8 with the 2 up front

I think that's what Wilder settled for in the end
 
Mojo said:
Knilly kept on and he probably invented it.
Our whole squad and club is set up for it, including the youth teams.
We have had tremendous success using it.
It gave us something novel and unique as a club as well as a playing identity which was something we lacked for years.


If we go back to 3412 with RND, Bogle and a class creative attacking midfielder, I could see it working well.

People say the formation was found out this season but I don't think it was, we just didn't have the overlapping play or the confidence or form to make it work again.

Would a new manager be willing to come in and adopt that formation and maybe even try and refine it further?

If we did keep the formation maybe that would appease some of our fans as it would kind of be Wilders legacy to the club
Click to expand...

Knill isn’t being kept on, nor any of Wilders ‘inner circle’. I’m not sure what systems Heckingbottom or Tindall have used at their other clubs so a change may happen. Something needs to change so we start playing further up the pitch to give ourselves a chance in games
 
Pretty sure that Heckingbottom will have been playing the Wilder/Knill formation for the past year, Knill is still around (for now), and we don’t really have the players to do anything more exciting than what we’ve been playing or any of your Warnock-style formations... so I think it will carry on for a while yet.
 
Mojo said:
Knilly kept on and he probably invented it.
Our whole squad and club is set up for it, including the youth teams.
We have had tremendous success using it.
It gave us something novel and unique as a club as well as a playing identity which was something we lacked for years.


If we go back to 3412 with RND, Bogle and a class creative attacking midfielder, I could see it working well.

People say the formation was found out this season but I don't think it was, we just didn't have the overlapping play or the confidence or form to make it work again.

Would a new manager be willing to come in and adopt that formation and maybe even try and refine it further?

If we did keep the formation maybe that would appease some of our fans as it would kind of be Wilders legacy to the club
Click to expand...
No reason why it cant work just needs better players in key positions and I think it would work well.
Depends on the new coach's philosophy to the game.Not only is it a hard system to play against itsxdifficult for players to buy into.
 
I don't think anyone would be against us reverting to the formation that got us here. Overlapping centre backs, wing backs that are generally more advanced than the midfield. It's what we've all absolutely loved watching. We haven't done it for ages though.
 
pommpey said:
Mate, stop kidding yourself it has ever been '3-5-2'

This seasons formation has been largely '5-3-2'. We can't play 3-5-2 because of the weaknesses at the back and the fact that 3-5-2 was devised to facilitate overlapping wingbacks, and get up the flanks a-la Wilderball. Since the back three have been effectively one man down and now three men down, no advances up either flank have taken place and if we do, because oppositions are wise to it, they stick four out there to block it and force us back, or more often into giving possession up from which they just run on and score. We are playing a system we don't have the players for any more. Consequently we find ourselves utilising the wingbacks deeper to supplement the weak back line, that leaves a pretty pisspoor midfield outnumbered and easy to get past so the midfield park themselves in front of the centrebacks leaving which ever poor fucker picked to go up front sat thumbing their scone-cutters up on the halfway line. No one gets the ball to them (the midfield is too far away and unable to support if they get the ball) and no one gets round the centre backs to get a cross in. And don't even think about having a crack on goa from outside the box. Only Didsy is allowed to do thayt.

They system is fucked. Wilder said it was okay though, so everyone just says 3-5-2 like it's some kinda lifesaving mantra. Never mind it has got us roundly tubbed twenty off times this season.

Now, repeat after me: '5-3-2'. '5-3-2'. '5-3-2'.

Good.

pommpey
Click to expand...

I'd just go for the old-style 2-3-5; that'll get us on the front foot and up the pitch.

I think there'd be some very high scoring games as well ;)

Not sure we'd win many but I'd rather see an exciting 5-4 defeat than a dull, boring 1-0 defeat
 
IdLiketoRogerMoore said:
Doesn't matter what system we play as we simply don't have the quality at this level.

We can argue all we want but the fact that none of our players would get in any other PL team says it all...
Click to expand...

Depends which PL you are referring to.

If it's the Azerbaijan PL then one or two might have a shout............maybe
 
The Crab said:
Depends which PL you are referring to.

If it's the Azerbaijan PL then one or two might have a shout............maybe
Click to expand...

Dare I say it but we're having the season Steve Nicol, Adrian Durham predicted...

We have shown disrespect for the PL with the players we've bought/played every week and we have got murdered every week with our system...

Maybe I'm in the 'anger' stage in the grief cycle but I'm pretty cheesed off with our current plight and the fact that the Messiah has been a naughty boy and fucked off leaving us up shit creek...
 
IdLiketoRogerMoore said:
Dare I say it but we're having the season Steve Nicol, Adrian Durham predicted...

We have shown disrespect for the PL with the players we've bought/played every week and we have got murdered every week with our system...

Maybe I'm in the 'anger' stage in the grief cycle but I'm pretty cheesed off with our current plight and the fact that the Messiah has been a naughty boy and fucked off leaving us up shit creek...
Click to expand...

I'd agree, but proving that pair of unmitigated twats right somehow urks me more than Wilder leaving.

Coming next, Piers Morgan telling me I'm bald.

Fuck these people and their correctness................
 
The Crab said:
I'd agree, but proving that pair of unmitigated twats right somehow urks me more than Wilder leaving.

Coming next, Piers Morgan telling me I'm bald.

Fuck these people and their correctness................
Click to expand...
Absolutely! Add to that list no mark 'pundits' telling us we're wrong to lose Wilder blah blah Fucking blah...

Chris Sutton, Jason Cundy, Paul Merson et al.

Fuck off. And when you've finished Fucking off. Fuck off some more!
 

The Crab said:
So many twats, so little cat shit to send
Click to expand...

In the hedonism of last season I totally disregarded Colin Murray and Liam Rosenior...

One of the pluses of being back in the Championship is not having to listen to Danny Murphy spending 2 minutes talk about us on a Saturday night...
 
Foody said:
I don't think anyone would be against us reverting to the formation that got us here. Overlapping centre backs, wing backs that are generally more advanced than the midfield. It's what we've all absolutely loved watching. We haven't done it for ages though.
Click to expand...

Because ...

1. 'we don't have the players for that any more' We don't have a Jack O'Connell replacement (and even if he came back tomorrow, it would take some time to get his head back into the game and be sure his surgery was effective) and our wingbacks are therefore too retracted, reinforcing the understrength backline.

2. Oppositions know how to counter it and turn our attacks down the flanks into goals for them. This has happened so many times this season, even if we haven't exploited the attacking centrebacks so much, we get dispossessed far up the pitch and weak midfield either chasing back or unable to be effective to stop their advance.

pommpey
 
pommpey said:
Because ...

1. 'we don't have the players for that any more' We don't have a Jack O'Connell replacement (and even if he came back tomorrow, it would take some time to get his head back into the game and be sure his surgery was effective) and our wingbacks are therefore too retracted, reinforcing the understrength backline.

2. Oppositions know how to counter it and turn our attacks down the flanks into goals for them. This has happened so many times this season, even if we haven't exploited the attacking centrebacks so much, we get dispossessed far up the pitch and weak midfield either chasing back or unable to be effective to stop their advance.

pommpey
Click to expand...

100% agree with you on point 1. I'm not sure about point 2. When we've had the players to play our style very few teams have been able to completely counter our play.

I don't believe this has to be the death of how we used to play. For me it's not that that style no longer works, it's that we haven't been able to play 'wilder ball', due to personnel, confidence and drop off in form.
 
i honestly think the 352 with overlapping centre backs has had its day even in the championship teams will set up the same as prem teams have to nulify it im hoping we go to 433
 
BornOnShorehamStreet said:
I'd just go for the old-style 2-3-5; that'll get us on the front foot and up the pitch.

I think there'd be some very high scoring games as well ;)

Not sure we'd win many but I'd rather see an exciting 5-4 defeat than a dull, boring 1-0 defeat
Click to expand...

------------------------------------------------Hope---------------------------------------------

------------Badger-------------------------------------------------------------Hemsley---------

-----------------------Flynn----------------Colquhoun---------------Hockey-------------------

--Woodward--------------Currie------------Dearden----------Salmons--------------Reece---

Fucking joy of joys!

pommpey
 
ancientblade said:
i honestly think the 352 with overlapping centre backs has had its day even in the championship teams will set up the same as prem teams have to nulify it im hoping we go to 433
Click to expand...

We haven't the speed, talent, aggression or direction to play three in the middle. Look at the key moments this season where we have looked a lot better - down to ten with 4-4-1 against Brighton away for example.

It would have to be a variant of 4-4-2 - 4-3-1-2, 4-1-3-2, 4-1-2-1-2 or 4-5-1 if we are defending a lead,

pommpey
 
The Crab said:
I'd agree, but proving that pair of unmitigated twats right somehow urks me more than Wilder leaving.

Coming next, Piers Morgan telling me I'm bald.

Fuck these people and their correctness................
Click to expand...
......... even more so if they were to be correct !
 
pommpey said:
Mate, stop kidding yourself it has ever been '3-5-2'

This seasons formation has been largely '5-3-2'. We can't play 3-5-2 because of the weaknesses at the back and the fact that 3-5-2 was devised to facilitate overlapping wingbacks, and get up the flanks a-la Wilderball. Since the back three have been effectively one man down and now three men down, no advances up either flank have taken place and if we do, because oppositions are wise to it, they stick four out there to block it and force us back, or more often into giving possession up from which they just run on and score. We are playing a system we don't have the players for any more. Consequently we find ourselves utilising the wingbacks deeper to supplement the weak back line, that leaves a pretty pisspoor midfield outnumbered and easy to get past so the midfield park themselves in front of the centrebacks leaving which ever poor fucker picked to go up front sat thumbing their scone-cutters up on the halfway line. No one gets the ball to them (the midfield is too far away and unable to support if they get the ball) and no one gets round the centre backs to get a cross in. And don't even think about having a crack on goa from outside the box. Only Didsy is allowed to do thayt.

They system is fucked. Wilder said it was okay though, so everyone just says 3-5-2 like it's some kinda lifesaving mantra. Never mind it has got us roundly tubbed twenty off times this season.

Now, repeat after me: '5-3-2'. '5-3-2'. '5-3-2'.

Good.

pommpey
Click to expand...
There‘s no reason why we couldn’t play either 3-5-2 or 3-4-1-2 next season, it’s subject to who we retain and the injury situation. I totally agree we’ve played nothing like this season hence the isolated strikers and the continual lack of forward options when we have the ball. Wilder used to shout “forward, forward” all the time but hadn’t done so for a long time. A lots of if’s though:

1. for me the hardest position to fill is the wide centre half (Bash / JOC) - unless these have the fitness and capability the system doesn’t work

2. the stay at home centre half (Egan) - hopefully retained but along with Berge probably most likely to be saleable for a good price. Although Egan has been largely excellent this is not the most difficult to replace

3. wingbacks - we’ve seen this year how poor Enda has been without JOC. The key here is a good engine and an end product. I think we’ll be ok here, especially if RND adds to the mix - Baldock/Bogle and Edna/Osborn/RND/Lowe. If Osborn is also cover in midfield then we can sell at least one

4. midfield - for me our weakest area this season. I’d love to think Fleck and Norwood can form the base but I’m not confident, may need an addition here. Assuming we play a ‘creator’ or ‘link man’ then we have Freeman to come back, Didsy or McBurnie. They give us some variety.

5, forwards - hopefully Brewster is the main man. Unless Burke develops any footballing skill or awareness to go with his blistering pace then it’s a no from me. Mouse - 2019 version, yes please, otherwise bye bye. Sharp - a role to play and probably very important off the field, maybe transition to a coaching team role if thats of interest to him.

Sales / main fund raisers - Berge (unrealistic for him to stay), Egan (may need to balance funds)

Release / loan ends/ give away if possible - Lunny, one LB (probably Lowe or Edna), Mouse, Burke, Ampadu, Rodwell, Robinson and at least one of Moore, Verrips, Fotheringham. I’d probably retain Bryan who has improved and has age on his side.

Need - replacement for Egan and cover (assuming Jags retires). At least one for the midfield base, competition or replacement for Norwood / Fleck. A striker or two to replace Mouse / Burke, assuming further reduced role for Sharp. We have flexibility here as Didsy and McBurnie can also play here as well as the creator role. Hopefully some of the U23’s that we’ve seen around the squad this season may step up too.

I‘d hope we could get £40m+ for Egan and Berge. These and the released players would take a large chunk out of the wage bill. Probably 5 important recruits needed plus some more backup depending on the released list - feasible? If we revert to picking up the best from lower leagues a la Brentford this should be possible.

A long way of saying that subject to having Bash and JOC fit and firing (a big question at the moment) then I’d like to see us continue with the same style and formation that has served us well before this season. We know when it’s played properly that it’s very hard to defend against.
 
pommpey said:
------------------------------------------------Hope---------------------------------------------

------------Badger-------------------------------------------------------------Hemsley---------

-----------------------Flynn----------------Colquhoun---------------Hockey-------------------

--Woodward--------------Currie------------Dearden----------Salmons--------------Reece---

Fucking joy of joys!

pommpey
Click to expand...
Can we swap Dave Powell in for Flynn?
 
pommpey said:
Mate, stop kidding yourself it has ever been '3-5-2'

This seasons formation has been largely '5-3-2'. We can't play 3-5-2 because of the weaknesses at the back and the fact that 3-5-2 was devised to facilitate overlapping wingbacks, and get up the flanks a-la Wilderball. Since the back three have been effectively one man down and now three men down, no advances up either flank have taken place and if we do, because oppositions are wise to it, they stick four out there to block it and force us back, or more often into giving possession up from which they just run on and score. We are playing a system we don't have the players for any more. Consequently we find ourselves utilising the wingbacks deeper to supplement the weak back line, that leaves a pretty pisspoor midfield outnumbered and easy to get past so the midfield park themselves in front of the centrebacks leaving which ever poor fucker picked to go up front sat thumbing their scone-cutters up on the halfway line. No one gets the ball to them (the midfield is too far away and unable to support if they get the ball) and no one gets round the centre backs to get a cross in. And don't even think about having a crack on goa from outside the box. Only Didsy is allowed to do thayt.

They system is fucked. Wilder said it was okay though, so everyone just says 3-5-2 like it's some kinda lifesaving mantra. Never mind it has got us roundly tubbed twenty off times this season.

Now, repeat after me: '5-3-2'. '5-3-2'. '5-3-2'.

Good.

pommpey
Click to expand...
It's clearly not worked this season but that's down to personel and confidence. If the centre backs and full backs don't push up and just sit back, the formation does not work at all and we get stuck sat in and can't get out. The formation needs all players to be confident and willing to press and push up on the opponent, especially the centre backs and wing backs.

However, the formation worked wonders last season. Clearly a squad of very limited players were able to achieve a top ten finish using it giving pretty much every team in the league a good game.

I agree with Wilder, the system is ok, it hasn't been found out. But the players we had this season and the lack of confidence led to it being woeful this season.

I think it could work again, however I would revert back to 3412 in the championship bringing back in the Duffy role. I feel a flat midfield 3 is far too limited in the centre of the pitch attacking wise.

The reason I am suggesting this is the whole club is geared up to play this system, it would mean a transition to a new manager should not cause great upheaval. The question is would a new manager be willing to adopt these tactics or would they want to use their own.
 
IdLiketoRogerMoore said:
Doesn't matter what system we play as we simply don't have the quality at this level.

We can argue all we want but the fact that none of our players would get in any other PL team says it all...
Click to expand...
Yet when we played this formation well with a fully fit team and everyone confident, we gave everyone a good game including playing Spurs off the park home and away amongst other unreal performances.

With a squad with "no" quality
 
Mojo said:
Yet when we played this formation well with a fully fit team and everyone confident, we gave everyone a good game including playing Spurs off the park home and away amongst other unreal performances.

With a squad with "no" quality
Click to expand...
History has been rewritten mate. Its was never 3-5-2. It was always 8-1-1 and it was always shit and boring to watch. And Wilder was shit
 
Mojo said:
Yet when we played this formation well with a fully fit team and everyone confident, we gave everyone a good game including playing Spurs off the park home and away amongst other unreal performances.

With a squad with "no" quality
Click to expand...

Quality isn't a constant. It's quite a transient thing. Just because you showed flickers of quality one year, it doesn't directly correlate that it'll be the same the next year.

Whether that's down to injury, board interference, bad transfers, lunar cycles - the fact remains we are woefully short on anything close to PL level quality this season...

That's top level sport. Dave Brailsford didn't have multiple Tour De France winners by resting on his laurels... We haven't moved forwards this season (whatever the reasons) and that's what's killed us...
 

IdLiketoRogerMoore said:
Quality isn't a constant. It's quite a transient thing. Just because you showed flickers of quality one year, it doesn't directly correlate that it'll be the same the next year.

Whether that's down to injury, board interference, bad transfers, lunar cycles - the fact remains we are woefully short on anything close to PL level quality this season...

That's top level sport. Dave Brailsford didn't have multiple Tour De France winners by resting on his laurels... We haven't moved forwards this season (whatever the reasons) and that's what's killed us...
Click to expand...

I think the warning signs were there at the back end of last season, and we were hoping that things would be addressed by our Summer business. JOC getting injured was a blow, but it shouldn't have been terminal.
 
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