The Death of the fucking ‘Flat 3’

[Chabuddy G]

Based on half a season. Similar statistics to MCB if spread over a full season.

Based on the showings we've seen. Not based on last season.

I think it's hard to say 'he's been League one at best' or 'he looks like a championship player' or whatever.

He looks like a kid who's drained of confidence. Nothing more nothing less.
We know full well he can score goals at Championship level, it's that simple. I saw someone mention him going on loan to a L1 club next season? What the fuck

 

[ComedyClub]

I think it's hard to say 'he's been League one at best' or 'he looks like a championship player' or whatever.

He looks like a kid who's drained of confidence. Nothing more nothing less.
We know full well he can score goals at Championship level, it's that simple. I saw someone mention him going on loan to a L1 club next season? What the fuck

Agree. Take away the price tag, he just looks like he doesn't really want to be here (think confidence would do that to anyone) but he needs to apply himself much more than he currently is.
Yeah... That's stupidity beyond belief. Spending such a large amount to simply cast him off/write him off for six months/full season is stupid.

 

[Chabuddy G]

Agree. Take away the price tag, he just looks like he doesn't really want to be here (think confidence would do that to anyone) but he needs to apply himself much more than he currently is.
Yeah... That's stupidity beyond belief. Spending such a large amount to simply cast him off/write him off for six months/full season is stupid.

He has no confidence, definitely, that much is obvious. I think he wants to be there, he's supposed to be a good lad, but he needs to show more. We have to remember however he is just a kid in a struggling side.

 

[cc1]

Think this has been sidetracked by anything other than conversation about the flat 3

It was another piss poor attention-seeking thread anyway so que sera sera

 

[Chabuddy G]

It was another piss poor attention-seeking thread anyway so que sera sera

Attention seeking because I (and many others) would like to see a change of formation?
Weird post pal

 

[Bashamed]

Attention seeking because I (and many others) would like to see a change of formation?
Weird post pal

I think it's the title of the thread maybe that's the issue. As if the flat 3 has been a disaster. We probably would have got in Europe with it last season if not for Covid.

 

[Coily]

He has no confidence, definitely, that much is obvious. I think he wants to be there, he's supposed to be a good lad, but he needs to show more. We have to remember however he is just a kid in a struggling side.

He reminds me - to an extent - of how Ched Evans was the season we went down to L1. An awful all round season for the team, and he was just bereft of confidence to the point you could visually see him second guess himself on the positions to take up and as a result ended up nowhere. But once he got a few goals in L1 he was outstanding as we know, the confidence flowed back and so did the goals. Until the April at least...

For Brewster, I see the same indecision to a lessor extent and consequently things aren't running his way. But the effort and ability is there and I remain utterly convinced once he gets one he'll be just fine.

 

[Chabuddy G]

I think it's the title of the thread maybe that's the issue. As if the flat 3 has been a disaster. We probably would have got in Europe with it last season if not for Covid.

If people can’t see past a thread title that’s on them

And to be honest, we scored a pathetic amount of goals last season with the same formation. It was all built on our ridiculously good defensive record which we were never going to keep up. It’s very naive to not have any change in shape available to us from our whole 25 man squad.

 

[CarlMcBlade]

Maybe but Berge isn’t a player to dictate a game he’s not a playmaker he’s a superb athlete who drives with the ball extremely well from deep. That midfield is missing a player who is the fulcrum a player to take one touch at most then move the ball to keep the opposition moving side to side back and forth until and opening is created.

Yeah we need a new Paul Coutts or a Kevin McDonald type. Norwood makes one good pass out of every half dozen. He and Berge for that matter are both too ponderous in the middle of the park.

 

[CarlMcBlade]

Norwood spends too much time admiring his “fucking ping.”

 

[Revolution]

Is there any good reason to play semi finals at wembley. Never thought it was a good idea, final only.
Without crowds no reason at all.

The reason is that the FA make a lot more money if they are held there.

 

[I should coco]

Yeah we need a new Paul Coutts or a Kevin McDonald type. Norwood makes one good pass out of every half dozen. He and Berge for that matter are both too ponderous in the middle of the park.

Eh?

Norwood is probably the least mobile player in our current team but covers far more ground than the two examples you mentioned and is arguably faster too.
Think back to the number of bookings Coutts took for professional fouls, as an opponent sailed past him.
Fulham clearly recognise KM's limitations as they only played him 15 times when they were in the Prem 2 years ago and according to Transfermarkt, he hasn't featured at all this year.

Kevin McDonald - Detailed stats (Detailed view)

This is the detailed performance data of Kevin McDonald of Exeter City. It shows the data (goals, bookings, etc.) at {vereinsZuweisung} in the 20/21 season.

www.transfermarkt.co.uk

Peak Coutts and KM, were in dominant teams having the lion's share of play. Norwood is in a struggling team where half of his outlets for the ball, our wingbacks, are being bottled up by clever opponents.

 

[Yogi]

Yeah we need a new Paul Coutts or a Kevin McDonald type. Norwood makes one good pass out of every half dozen. He and Berge for that matter are both too ponderous in the middle of the park.

Yeah Berge’s strengths aren’t as a ball player we’ve built our success on asking players to just do what they’re good at and putting players together to compliment each other strengths. Berge would look a far better player if there was someone alongside him to take that responsibility off him.

 

[CarlMcBlade]

Eh?

Norwood is probably the least mobile player in our current team but covers far more ground than the two examples you mentioned and is arguably faster too.
Think back to the number of bookings Coutts took for professional fouls, as an opponent sailed past him.
Fulham clearly recognise KM's limitations as they only played him 15 times when they were in the Prem 2 years ago and according to Transfermarkt, he hasn't featured at all this year.

Kevin McDonald - Detailed stats (Detailed view)

This is the detailed performance data of Kevin McDonald of Exeter City. It shows the data (goals, bookings, etc.) at {vereinsZuweisung} in the 20/21 season.

www.transfermarkt.co.uk

Peak Coutts and KM, were in dominant teams having the lion's share of play. Norwood is in a struggling team where half of his outlets for the ball, our wingbacks, are being bottled up by clever

Eh?

Norwood is probably the least mobile player in our current team but covers far more ground than the two examples you mentioned and is arguably faster too.
Think back to the number of bookings Coutts took for professional fouls, as an opponent sailed past him.
Fulham clearly recognise KM's limitations as they only played him 15 times when they were in the Prem 2 years ago and according to Transfermarkt, he hasn't featured at all this year.

Kevin McDonald - Detailed stats (Detailed view)

This is the detailed performance data of Kevin McDonald of Exeter City. It shows the data (goals, bookings, etc.) at {vereinsZuweisung} in the 20/21 season.

www.transfermarkt.co.uk

Peak Coutts and KM, were in dominant teams having the lion's share of play. Norwood is in a struggling team where half of his outlets for the ball, our wingbacks, are being bottled up by clever opponents.

Ok If you want other examples, how about Stuart McCall or Gary Speed. They are the epitome of “engine room” players we are so sadly lacking at the moment. Who without being flash, could recycle the ball, distribute it at the right time, dictate the tempo of play and also very rarely got caught in possession. Maybe Berge could develop into such a player, but sadly at the moment he’s miles off it and with regret I don’t thing we will get to share in his development for much longer..

 

[I should coco]

Ok If you want other examples, how about Stuart McCall or Gary Speed. They are the epitome of “engine room” players we are so sadly lacking at the moment. Who without being flash, could recycle the ball, distribute it at the right time, dictate the tempo of play and also very rarely got caught in possession. Maybe Berge could develop into such a player, but sadly at the moment he’s miles off it and with regret I don’t thing we will get to share in his development for much longer..

McCall was great for us in the triple assault season, although that was at a lower level then we are currently at. He took the ball, used years of skill to win himself a couple of seconds (often a wall pass with the Chief) but had options on two wings (Nuddy and Tonge) as well as willing strikers running down the middle (Kabba, Pesch). Again as I said, teams have sussed us out and the wingbacks are often unable to offer the width, hence Norwood's limited options are his two midfielders and maybe a (marked) striker.

McCall, Speed, McDonald, Coutts (and Cowans) were all excellent players in the centre for us, but none of them did it at this level. You are right to suggest Berge and I agree with you he is some way off and in any case, probably out for the season.

I'm not defending Norwood for the sake of it, just to keep an argument going. He does look decidedly poorer than last year, but much of that is down to the players around him also being under par and last season's options being closed off.

 

[CaptainMorgans]

Provided we don't lose anybody, next season I'd be looking at;

........................Ramsdale
............Basham..Egan...O'Connell
Bogle..........................................RND
...............Berge...............Fleck
.......................McGoldrick
...................Sharp.......Burke

Subs: Foderingham, Baldock, Stevens, Osborn, new midfielder, Brewster, McBurnie.

Looking forward to watching McGoldrick pull the strings from 10.
Suspect we might lose a few though - Egan, JOC & Berge in particular.

 

[BornOnShorehamStreet]

He was a waste of space tonight cant wait to see the back of him

The opposition see more of his back than we do - he always has it turned towards their goal.

 

[Working Class Hero]

Provided we don't lose anybody, next season I'd be looking at;

........................Ramsdale
............Basham..Egan...O'Connell
Bogle..........................................RND
...............Berge...............Fleck
.......................McGoldrick
...................Sharp.......Burke

Subs: Foderingham, Baldock, Stevens, Osborn, new midfielder, Brewster, McBurnie.

Looking forward to watching McGoldrick pull the strings from 10.
Suspect we might lose a few though - Egan, JOC & Berge in particular.

Did you forget Lundstram, Norwood and Mousset or are you assuming they'll be gone? They might not have been sparkling this year but I'm pretty sure they'd all be worthy of a place in a Championship 18!

 

[Almosthuman]

It didn't work fine at the start of the season.

Berge/Fleck/Mcgoldrick has to be the future anyway, we can't keep having this lack of goals and creativity.

Norwood made 22 passes, 21 of which were complete.

If you watched the game, the majority of those passes were backwards and about 3 yards. The couple of times he tried to get it forward the passes were crap.

He also did his customary thing of being tackled just outside the box and also giving away cheap fouls.

I don't dislike him and would love for him to get back to his best but he's been the worst performer all season bar none. If Berge is fit and we were able to bring in another as we wanted he'd be nowhere near this squad

 

[Rudders]

We are in dire need of a physical midfielder who can tackle, run, head and pass it. If they can shoot as well then great.
Every team doing well in the PL has one of these. We don't, last seasons Lunny was close.
I really like Rice, Docoure and Ndidi in this role. Fernandinho etc. Even the Yorkshire 'Pillock' Kalvin Phillips .Until we get a physical presence and athlete in there we are just going to get overrun and dominated. Berge is a start as a physical upgrade in height and ball carrying strength but we really need some more strength in there. Like Besic but a foot taller. Hope its on Wilders shopping list as well as a creative midfielder. I still like Cantwell for that role

 

[CarlMcBlade]

McCall was great for us in the triple assault season, although that was at a lower level then we are currently at. He took the ball, used years of skill to win himself a couple of seconds (often a wall pass with the Chief) but had options on two wings (Nuddy and Tonge) as well as willing strikers running down the middle (Kabba, Pesch). Again as I said, teams have sussed us out and the wingbacks are often unable to offer the width, hence Norwood's limited options are his two midfielders and maybe a (marked) striker.

McCall, Speed, McDonald, Coutts (and Cowans) were all excellent players in the centre for us, but none of them did it at this level. You are right to suggest Berge and I agree with you he is some way off and in any case, probably out for the season.

I'm not defending Norwood for the sake of it, just to keep an argument going. He does look decidedly poorer than last year, but much of that is down to the players around him also being under par and last season's options being closed off.

McCall, Speed and Cowans made their names doing it at this level. But yes the game has changed, everyone is much fitter and faster. But the much fabled “midfield general” still exists and I feel we should have made that sort of player our No1 priority last summer.

 

[Geordie Blade]

If you watched the game, the majority of those passes were backwards and about 3 yards. The couple of times he tried to get it forward the passes were crap.

I didn't say anything about whether he played well or not. People said that he gave the ball away a lot. I pointed out that he actually completed 21 out of 22 passes. Then narrative suddenly changed to "his passes were backwards". I like a good debate - just want it to be based on real facts.

The same stats website says that Norwood made 2 'key passes' in his 18 minutes. That's twice as many as Fleck made in 90 minutes. I have to say that I can't recall any of those (which is why I'm not defending Norwood's performance), but I think it's interesting to note the facts to go alongside the debate.

 

[Chabuddy G]

I didn't say anything about whether he played well or not. People said that he gave the ball away a lot. I pointed out that he actually completed 21 out of 22 passes. Then narrative suddenly changed to "his passes were backwards". I like a good debate - just want it to be based on real facts.

The same stats website says that Norwood made 2 'key passes' in his 18 minutes. That's twice as many as Fleck made in 90 minutes. I have to say that I can't recall any of those (which is why I'm not defending Norwood's performance), but I think it's interesting to note the facts to go alongside the debate.

I saw him give the ball away at least twice, so those stats are wrong to be fair.

 

[Tramway Blade]

Norwood , Lunny and fleck gave us our best finish for nearly as long as i can remember last season . Norwood has struggled but no more than all our players this season when Norwood is on his game the rest of the team play well . Playing with a number 10 or a flat 3 both have their merits but to say Norwood is responsible or has nothing more to offer is nonsense , our upturn in form is for a large part down to Norwood Lunny and Fleck regaining a bit of form . Next season when we are in the Championship and Lunny and Sander have moved on Norwood Fleck and a 10 (McG) or Norwood Fleck and another will still serve us well .

 

[Almosthuman]

I didn't say anything about whether he played well or not. People said that he gave the ball away a lot. I pointed out that he actually completed 21 out of 22 passes. Then narrative suddenly changed to "his passes were backwards". I like a good debate - just want it to be based on real facts.

The same stats website says that Norwood made 2 'key passes' in his 18 minutes. That's twice as many as Fleck made in 90 minutes. I have to say that I can't recall any of those (which is why I'm not defending Norwood's performance), but I think it's interesting to note the facts to go alongside the debate.

When I say loses possession, I didn't actually say he misplaced passes.

I mean he lost possession, which also includes being tackled, in stupid places. Which he did, more than once

 

[CarlMcBlade]

McCall was great for us in the triple assault season, although that was at a lower level then we are currently at. He took the ball, used years of skill to win himself a couple of seconds (often a wall pass with the Chief) but had options on two wings (Nuddy and Tonge) as well as willing strikers running down the middle (Kabba, Pesch). Again as I said, teams have sussed us out and the wingbacks are often unable to offer the width, hence Norwood's limited options are his two midfielders and maybe a (marked) striker.

McCall, Speed, McDonald, Coutts (and Cowans) were all excellent players in the centre for us, but none of them did it at this level. You are right to suggest Berge and I agree with you he is some way off and in any case, probably out for the season.

I'm not defending Norwood for the sake of it, just to keep an argument going. He does look decidedly poorer than last year, but much of that is down to the players around him also being under par and last season's options being closed off.

Yes, on your last point. Our team is very much a sum of it’s parts. I initially thought it was a load of baloney that we couldn’t function as a team without our esteemed LCB. But who knew O’Connells absence would affect so many of his teammates, especially down the left side.....But although Norwood is supposedly our midfield anchor man, does fall into the above category.

 

[Bladesman]

Norwood spends too much time admiring his “fucking ping.”

He barely has a ping these days.