FAO Those who want Wilder out

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FMBlade1

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Having thought through this carefully and sombrely, this is how I see it:

1. He will not resign. Doing so will be taking responsibility for this mess making it harder to take a new job , whilst losing the rest of his contract which he will need for his family in these tough economic times and make him look like a pathetic coward quitter. Completely understandable that he doesn't resign, even though if he had done an Ian Holloway (resigned at Crystal Palace) earlier we might have had a better chance.

2. He will not get sacked. The Prince has said so and there is no reason not to believe him. He will understandably believe that there is no one else out there who could get us out of the Championship. The only one I can think of as an alternative would be Slavan Bilic and there are no guarantees of success there.

It is difficult, believe me, to come to terms with relegation and international sporting humiliation which we may have to put up with for a hundred years (Lucky Loughborough!), though points 1 and 2 will not change even if we go down with less than 10 points.

This reminds me of the film 'The Day After Tomorrow' where the storm is about to hit. Had something been done before then the disaster might have been mitigated or even averted, but it's too late now for us to reach 12 points let alone battle to survive regardless of who is in charge. So all we can do is bunker down and ride out these torturous few months and hope come the summer we can move on and recover.

This is because the team that Wilder has assembled is actually so atrocious nothing can be done now. He's managed us so badly since lockdown that he's made us unsalvageable for the PL. (If he had done his job a bit better to make us salvageable for someone else I'd want him gone asap)

He has failed, in summary:

Recruitment: Signing Forest rejects and relying on them. Huge wastes on unproven PL talent and refusing to look beyond Dover for players.
Formation: Reluctance to change an out of date system
Coaching: Keeping it stale with no coaches who have Premier League experience.

It is absolutely fair enough that he has criticism (though abuse is not acceptable) and to those who want Wilder to stay it is perfectly reasonable to think, even if you don't agree, that Wilder's time is up at SUFC.

It's very sad to come to terms with :(
 
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A hundred years of international sporting humiliation is... perhaps laying it on a little bit thick??

Who's the lowest points scorer in Serie A? Bundesliga? I've got no idea. It's a bad season sure, but no need for quite so much hyperbole (imo anyway...)

Yes you might think so, but statistically we are way down there. With that said Schalke are currently on 4 points with no wins so that's a team to compete with!

List of winless seasons - Wikipedia

^^^

Looking at the above there has been no major footballing nation's first division team that has finished so poorly as we are projected to do.

This is the only ones which come close in my opinion

'In the 1998–99 Alpha Ethniki, the football championship in Greece, Ethnikos Piraeus drew 8 games and lost 26 out of 34.'
 
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You're right, of course. It's not great - I do accept that!

I just think that next season I'll be much more concerned as to whether we'll get 3 points from Preston/Millwall or whoever rather than being bothered about what happened this season. Relegation is relegation - it doesn't massively bother me whether it's by 1 point, 10 points or 30 points. The main thing is how the club responds to it.
 
I said it when we were promoted to the Championship (and was proved wrong - I'll admit) but at the time I thought we needed to be more athletic to compete.

Actually if you look who we had in our promotion year with Madine and Hogan (despite your thoughts on footballing ability) they were better athletes than what we have now. Imagine Madine V McBurnie.... Whether it was jumping for a ball, wrestling, fighting - Madine wins every time.

Never was this more noticeable than Eze's goal yesterday. Massive athletic difference every week between our Over 35 looking veteran team and the peak of physical excellence we're up against every week.

This Jan we need to buy 2 or 3 6ft 4in centre mids who are athletic, energetic and can stamp their physicality on a match. We'll need them next season and the season after...
 
My main concern is if we come back up, then what? He’s not (yet) showing he has the tactical ability, flexibility and recruitment skills needed in the top league. Will he learn? How? Why? He’s barely acknowledging any responsibility at the moment, I just don’t see how he’s going to metamorphosis into a manager with an elite skill set. I always worry too that he lets stubbornness, pride and ego get in the way ( or at least appears to do so).

There’s a romantic notion that old-school graft, fitness, and hard work will bring you success. The reality is this league will chew you up if that’s all you have.
 
My main concern is if we come back up, then what? He’s not (yet) showing he has the tactical ability, flexibility and recruitment skills needed in the top league. Will he learn? How? Why? He’s barely acknowledging any responsibility at the moment, I just don’t see how he’s going to metamorphosis into a manager with an elite skill set. I always worry too that he lets stubbornness, pride and ego get in the way ( or at least appears to do so).

There’s a romantic notion that old-school graft, fitness, and hard work will bring you success. The reality is this league will chew you up if that’s all you have.

Like any sport at the highest level - it evolves.

One minute you have it, the next you don't! One minute your the apex of the food chain, the next the sport has passed you by!

Based on last season alone, you can argue Wilder can survive at this level, but he needs to apply the lessons learnt from this season as at the mo we certainly haven't evolved.
 
I said it when we were promoted to the Championship (and was proved wrong - I'll admit) but at the time I thought we needed to be more athletic to compete.

Actually if you look who we had in our promotion year with Madine and Hogan (despite your thoughts on footballing ability) they were better athletes than what we have now. Imagine Madine V McBurnie.... Whether it was jumping for a ball, wrestling, fighting - Madine wins every time.

Never was this more noticeable than Eze's goal yesterday. Massive athletic difference every week between our Over 35 looking veteran team and the peak of physical excellence we're up against every week.

This Jan we need to buy 2 or 3 6ft 4in centre mids who are athletic, energetic and can stamp their physicality on a match. We'll need them next season and the season after...
Totally agree with this - we don’t look athletic in the slightest. It’s very much felt like an under 15 side. Teams just bully the ball off us and we have to exert so much effort to get it back.
 
Totally agree with this - we don’t look athletic in the slightest. It’s very much felt like an under 15 side. Teams just bully the ball off us and we have to exert so much effort to get it back.

Under 15's - Over 35's - the point is that every other team has a 6ft 4in decathlete in centre mid. We don't. Our 6ft 4in decathlete is more likely to represent Norway at darts...
 
Under 15's - Over 35's - the point is that every other team has a 6ft 4in decathlete in centre mid. We don't. Our 6ft 4in decathlete is more likely to represent Norway at darts...
Yeah - under-15s in terms of strength and physicality - over-35s in terms of fitness and pace. The worst of both worlds!
 
My main concern is if we come back up, then what? He’s not (yet) showing he has the tactical ability, flexibility and recruitment skills needed in the top league. Will he learn? How? Why? He’s barely acknowledging any responsibility at the moment, I just don’t see how he’s going to metamorphosis into a manager with an elite skill set. I always worry too that he lets stubbornness, pride and ego get in the way ( or at least appears to do so).

There’s a romantic notion that old-school graft, fitness, and hard work will bring you success. The reality is this league will chew you up if that’s all you have.
I honestly don't think it is worth your while worrying too much about how we will cope if we get back up in the Premiership.....it won't happen again for a number of years
 
I honestly don't think it is worth your while worrying too much about how we will cope if we get back up in the Premiership.....it won't happen again for a number of years
Yeah - that’s my worry. I’ve talked previously about the need to be ruthless in order to succeed in elite-class sport. There’s still an awful lot of sentimentality being prioritised at the moment.
 
Worrying about how we'd fair back in the prem is a luxury! Entire rebuild and dealing with the unprecedented club losing mentality will take some time.
 
Having thought through this carefully and sombrely, this is how I see it:

1. He will not resign. Doing so will be taking responsibility for this mess making it harder to take a new job , whilst losing the rest of his contract which he will need for his family in these tough economic times and make him look like a pathetic coward quitter. Completely understandable that he doesn't resign, even though if he had done an Ian Holloway (resigned at Crystal Palace) earlier we might have had a better chance.

2. He will not get sacked. The Prince has said so and there is no reason not to believe him. He will understandably believe that there is no one else out there who could get us out of the Championship. The only one I can think of as an alternative would be Slavan Bilic and there are no guarantees of success there.

It is difficult, believe me, to come to terms with relegation and international sporting humiliation which we may have to put up with for a hundred years (Lucky Loughborough!), though points 1 and 2 will not change even if we go down with less than 10 points.

This reminds me of the film 'The Day After Tomorrow' where the storm is about to hit. Had something been done before then the disaster might have been mitigated or even averted, but it's too late now for us to reach 12 points let alone battle to survive regardless of who is in charge. So all we can do is bunker down and ride out these torturous few months and hope come the summer we can move on and recover.

This is because the team that Wilder has assembled is actually so atrocious nothing can be done now. He's managed us so badly since lockdown that he's made us unsalvageable for the PL. (If he had done his job a bit better to make us salvageable for someone else I'd want him gone asap)

He has failed, in summary:

Recruitment: Signing Forest rejects and relying on them. Huge wastes on unproven PL talent and refusing to look beyond Dover for players.
Formation: Reluctance to change an out of date system
Coaching: Keeping it stale with no coaches who have Premier League experience.

It is absolutely fair enough that he has criticism (though abuse is not acceptable) and to those who want Wilder to stay it is perfectly reasonable to think, even if you don't agree, that Wilder's time is up at SUFC.

It's very sad to come to terms with :(

You thought carefully and sombrely, and you’ve got your crayons out and assembled a piece of work that is inaccurate, doesn’t look at the bigger picture of Wilder has achieved during his 4 and a half years at the club, doesn’t take in to account any other circumstances that has had a bearing on this season and is tantamount to a character assassination of the best manager this club has had in 25 years.
 
You thought carefully and sombrely, and you’ve got your crayons out and assembled a piece of work that is inaccurate, doesn’t look at the bigger picture of Wilder has achieved during his 4 and a half years at the club, doesn’t take in to account any other circumstances that has had a bearing on this season and is tantamount to a character assassination of the best manager this club has had in 25 years.
Actually think FMBlade1 piece is one of the best pieces I've read in a while. And to be fair we're talking about if he is an elite level manager for the top league and whether he can learn from his mistakes 'if' we come back up. Not what he did in the lower leagues.
 



My main concern is if we come back up, then what? He’s not (yet) showing he has the tactical ability, flexibility and recruitment skills needed in the top league. Will he learn? How? Why? He’s barely acknowledging any responsibility at the moment, I just don’t see how he’s going to metamorphosis into a manager with an elite skill set. I always worry too that he lets stubbornness, pride and ego get in the way ( or at least appears to do so).

There’s a romantic notion that old-school graft, fitness, and hard work will bring you success. The reality is this league will chew you up if that’s all you have.
This is where I am, albeit I just can't see this team and manager suddenly going from losing every week to winning every week next season. It doesn't seem realistic. We spent years and years trying to get out of the Championship and just because we managed it quickly once with Wilder doesn't mean we'll do so again. Every team we'll come up against will have a lot of examples of how to nullify our system, players will be fragile in terms of confidence and team spirit much less.

And, if by some miracle, we did go up, what would be different? He's shown little or no sign of being able to adapt or recruit. Our scouting and youth failings aren't going to be rectified in a year. We're not suddenly going to be able to throw large wages at Championship players.

Football managers can evolve and develop though, but my concern is that stubborn ones don't.
 
At what point does the performance of the last 12 months (6 wins and 23 goals scored in 35 league games) start to take precedence over what went before? The new players are getting grief over much shorter periods of poor performance.

To a neutral he's had 2 hugely over achieving seasons above L1. He's not proven that he's always going to have a top level Championship team.

Ideally, Wilder stays in charge and attempts to rebuild again (if only because he should be made to clear up his own mess). But forget the 2 points, this team has looked competitive in about 7 of 17 games this season. Their are 21 games left, I'm not sure the club and players can take another 5 months.
 
Actually think FMBlade1 piece is one of the best pieces I've read in a while. And to be fair we're talking about if he is an elite level manager for the top league and whether he can learn from his mistakes 'if' we come back up. Not what he did in the lower leagues.
Do 'his' mistakes that he needs to learn from include the disruption of Corona, injuries/loss of form to key players, no BDTBL fan influence, inability through finances to sign who he really wants rather than who he's allowed to get?
As he's often said, when you're limited in ability against those who aren't, you either keep it tight and hope for a break, or open up and get mullered.
Both are obvious to see in the 2 worst teams in the division. Us and WBA.
 
Just one signing could turn this around.

Someone on the lines of a Vinnie Jones, for those old enough to remember, he made it work on the field, by keeping everyones attention and keeping it on the pace. No heads dropped or daydreamed when he was around.

I can't think of such a character, but there must be someone out there who can kick arse on the pitch.

Of course ref's did show bias against him and enjoyed sending him at any given opportunity.
 
I'd stick with Wilder, I believe he will come good again. However if we parted company, whoever we got in couldn't possibly do worse that what CW has this season.


This is the where the issues lay, where the Bladey Bladery or ‘pork’ occurs

We are all aware that this isn’t a pub team where the only implication of a disastrous run is relegation into pub league 5 and piss take, this is big business , multi million pound business

We are fans, and as such, as Cahill says, we want to believe CW will come good

However the price of him not is how many millions? If the championship playoff final is known as the most valuable game in the world, I presume relegation is the opposite?

If you were to run the sequence of events through a professional business man, he would tell you ‘your man is a spent force, you can’t allow a manager to be missing targets so wildly, making bad judgement and recruitment calls and “hope” he comes good. Thank him, pay him off and find new blood to refresh and rebuild your business’

As a fan I want the chest thumping lifelong Blade that is CW at the helm till he retires
Accepting football is business, I want the ruthless decision to be made

I was at the Lane for Forest last game under Clough, he applauded us for chanting his name, but he had stayed too long
Mourinho was sacked by Chelsea despite winning them the league
Raneri was sacked months after lifting the PL trophy for Leicester
Wenger was driven out despite revolutionising not just Arsenal, but the entire UK game

Apart from Fergie, I can’t think of any examples where it hasn’t ended badly for a manager, no shame on them, it’s just the lifecycle of the football Manager now I guess
 
I remember back in the 90s when a work colleague of mine went to see Bolton in a Premier League for the first time - his first time that is. On the Monday he said that he was shocked at how the opposition were "Big, strong, athletes." They still are but with sublime skills in many cases and they make it look easy.
 
It won't matter if we go down on a record low number of points if we come back up stronger within a couple of seasons and stay here.

This season will then be nothing more than a freak blip in an otherwise highly successful era. A blip that we could look back at from our consolidated place in the Premier League and almost laugh about.

That is the only way we come out of this well and avoid long term humiliation. I absolutely can't see it happening, but it's something to hope for.
 
This is the where the issues lay, where the Bladey Bladery or ‘pork’ occurs

We are all aware that this isn’t a pub team where the only implication of a disastrous run is relegation into pub league 5 and piss take, this is big business , multi million pound business

We are fans, and as such, as Cahill says, we want to believe CW will come good

However the price of him not is how many millions? If the championship playoff final is known as the most valuable game in the world, I presume relegation is the opposite?

If you were to run the sequence of events through a professional business man, he would tell you ‘your man is a spent force, you can’t allow a manager to be missing targets so wildly, making bad judgement and recruitment calls and “hope” he comes good. Thank him, pay him off and find new blood to refresh and rebuild your business’

As a fan I want the chest thumping lifelong Blade that is CW at the helm till he retires
Accepting football is business, I want the ruthless decision to be made

I was at the Lane for Forest last game under Clough, he applauded us for chanting his name, but he had stayed too long
Mourinho was sacked by Chelsea despite winning them the league
Raneri was sacked months after lifting the PL trophy for Leicester
Wenger was driven out despite revolutionising not just Arsenal, but the entire UK game

Apart from Fergie, I can’t think of any examples where it hasn’t ended badly for a manager, no shame on them, it’s just the lifecycle of the football Manager now I guess

The most sensible post I've read round these parts for a good while.

I guess it would depend on what Wilder is saying behind closed doors. If he's telling Bettis/Prince that he knows he fucked up and what he needs to do to put it right, and the 5/10 year plan is still live.
 
My main concern is if we come back up, then what? He’s not (yet) showing he has the tactical ability, flexibility and recruitment skills needed in the top league. Will he learn? How? Why? He’s barely acknowledging any responsibility at the moment, I just don’t see how he’s going to metamorphosis into a manager with an elite skill set. I always worry too that he lets stubbornness, pride and ego get in the way ( or at least appears to do so).

There’s a romantic notion that old-school graft, fitness, and hard work will bring you success. The reality is this league will chew you up if that’s all you have.
Those qualities are essential to survive in the Premiership and all the top sides have them BUT you also need structure (which we had last year) and ability which we are very short of.
 
He has failed, in summary:
Recruitment: Signing Forest rejects and relying on them. Huge wastes on unproven PL talent and refusing to look beyond Dover for players.
Formation: Reluctance to change an out of date system
Coaching: Keeping it stale with no coaches who have Premier League experience.
Of course you were saying all these things last season (signing Osborn and other English players, sticking with 3-5-2 and having the same coaches) when United were on the brink of Europe? Weren’t you?
 
Of course you were saying all these things last season (signing Osborn and other English players, sticking with 3-5-2 and having the same coaches) when United were on the brink of Europe? Weren’t you?

3-5-2 was working then. Why change it then?

By the way, have you or your colleagues asked him why he’s still persisting with it?
 
The most sensible post I've read round these parts for a good while.

I guess it would depend on what Wilder is saying behind closed doors. If he's telling Bettis/Prince that he knows he fucked up and what he needs to do to put it right, and the 5/10 year plan is still live.

Why would that plan not be live the issue is we got where we aimed to be in a third of the time. This is probably our single biggest issue, we need to take a step back. The plan was always to have wilder leading us we shouldn’t move away from that.
 
Maybe we should change our signing policy to a similar style to an Athletic Bilbao style and just sign Yorkshire players.
 



Why would that plan not be live the issue is we got where we aimed to be in a third of the time. This is probably our single biggest issue, we need to take a step back. The plan was always to have wilder leading us we shouldn’t move away from that.

The plan ceases to be live when landmarks are missed and targets not hit.

I'm sure getting relegated was planned for and there are contingency plans in place. However, they cease to be relevant if our £100m investments have bombed, our current assets have aged beyond being fit for purpose and there is a disenfranchised customer base...

Like I say, a lot will depend on the behind the scenes conversations but I can't see us being in a position where we want to be paying for x2 managers and starting the project all over again.
 

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