Team Vs City

[wizadry]

He literally said 'I don't mean to quell debate'

He was saying there’s no point anyone suggesting anything other than our usual formation, how is that not quelling it?

 

[AWetFlannel]

He was saying there’s no point anyone suggesting anything other than our usual formation, how is that not quelling it?

He didn't. He said he thinks it would be more interesting if people made suggestions that have a chance of being implemented.

I happen to agree with both BB that it would be more interesting, and Wilder that changing the formation would be the wrong way to go. But nobody is saying you can't say otherwise Wiz regardless.

 

[wizadry]

He didn't. He said he thinks it would be more interesting if people made suggestions that have a chance of being implemented.

I happen to agree with both BB that it would be more interesting, and Wilder that changing the formation would be the wrong way to go. But nobody is saying you can't say otherwise Wiz regardless.

He’s basically saying that until Wilder goes then we’ll play that formation all the time, surely you can see the flaws in this mate? We must be easy to scout at the minute!

 

[Stretch]

Would love to see Berge as the CAM, he is looking better and better when he drives forward.

Going with Didzy up front because he looks the most likely to score at the moment.

Brewster gets another start, because we have to back this lad and give him a chance to get match sharp. It's another free anyway, so may as well see give him a run at them.


.....................Rammers....................
.........Bash.......Egan....Stevens.......
Baldock...............................Osborn
...........Norwood......Ampadu...........
.........................Berge......................
..................Didz........Brewster.........


Bench:

Verrips
Jags
Bogle
Lowe
Lunny
Burke
McBurnie

 

[AWetFlannel]

He’s basically saying that until Wilder goes then we’ll play that formation all the time, surely you can see the flaws in this mate? We must be easy to scout at the minute!

I think most teams are easy to scout tbh, Klopp (4-3-3), Dyche (4-4-2), Bielsa (4-1-4-1) etc have all played the same formation for years.

I think it's fair to make the argument that we are in a very bad run of results so we should change it up, but I disagree. We have been massively over-achieving for years, part of that is due to the system and how perfectly our players have adapted to it. I worry that if we try something new, we lose the main advantage we have had over teams under Wilder.

 

[wizadry]

I think most teams are easy to scout tbh, Klopp (4-3-3), Dyche (4-4-2), Bielsa (4-1-4-1) etc have all played the same formation for years.

I think it's fair to make the argument that we are in a very bad run of results so we should change it up, but I disagree. We have been massively over-achieving for years, part of that is due to the system and how perfectly our players have adapted to it. I worry that if we try something new, we lose the main advantage we have had over teams under Wilder.

I just think the next game against City is a chance for us to try something different where we can stop the rot.

City barely have anyone up top, they try to attack from deep and find spaces in the midfield, I think we should have the extra body in there for this specific game never mind the fact we need to stop the rot and it’s a free hit so to speak. City can be beaten but I fear we won’t if we keep our usual shape, Pep ain’t daft but we could Chuck a right curve ball in.

 

[BladesNo9]

Verrips
Baldock Bash Egan Robinson Stevens
Berge Ampadu Osborn
McGoldrick Burke

Subs - Ramsdale Jagielka Bogle Norwood Brewster Sharp McBurnie

Brewster on for Robbo, with Ampadu dropping to CB on 60/65mins.
Bogle on for McGoldrick on 75mins, with Burke dropping in to MacG's No.10 role.
on 85mins (last 15mins, inc injury time!? ) McBurnie on for Burke.

Sub's dependent for how the game is panning out!.

The above gives us a chance to have a look at squad/new players, in a game we're not expected to take anything from.

 

[CoatesyBlade]

Fairly confident it’ll be the same starting eleven barring injury.
Personally I’d like to see Osborn in the LCM role. If Lowe is still out then that would require a recall for Robinson.
I’d also like to see Didzy starting. We play better and create more when he plays.
I like Burke too but we’ve got 4/5 strikers competing for 2 spots so think it’s unlikely. Especially as Wilder was raving about McB post match.
If we go with Berge at RCM and Ampadu at DCM then I’ll be happy enough with whoever else we go with.

 

[nopigfansintown]

Consistency and cohesion need to be the watch words - particularly in regards to the front two and LCB/LWB issues. You cannot create this when you change these positions every week. Players need time to learn the role and to build partnerships; particularly new players. We may not benefit against the top sides in the next few games, but in the long run it will hopefully pay off. On that basis Stevens and Osborn should keep the shirts alongside the front two. There is an argument for Didzy in for Mcburnie to pack the midfield areas, or Brewster and Burke as two out and out road runners, but I feel that we need familiarity of selection more at the moment. The midfield is trickier, but I'm not sure we have the solutions in the squad (who are fit) so it's a case of what the hell can we do? The only possibility of change is playing Osborn for his energy and bringing Lowe in at LWB, or else bringing Norwood back and shoving Berge on the right. I'd leave it the same - Man City will squeeze the life out of Norwood, and Osborn deserves another start (he's been excellent every time he's played LWB). The pace in transition the likes of Osborn, Berge and Brewster bring to the side are also invaluable.
It seems that Bogle was very close to starting last week, but Baldock was exceptional against Liverpool so that's probably put that on ice. I'd like to see him as a bench option, even if he's just there to bring energy from the bench in one of the right sided positions.

 

[Ron_Justice]

Personally think we'll see this as the de facto formation this season. With the attempt to introduce Lowe v's Fulham, Ampadu's emergence as a Norwood upgrade, and Brewsters inclusion vs LFC, coupled with that overall performance, I recon CWAK have found their preferred group.

FWIW, it goes without saying JOC at LCB would improve this team immeasurably. I think Robinson is a better option than Steven at LCB IF we have Lowe and Osborn there to provide an attacking threat down the left.

 

[Vikkster]

Bollocks, missed one. Post ruined.

 

[MJM]

Until Fleck is back, we should be sticking with the team that went out at Anfield.

The performance was decent and I think a little bit of stability within the starting XI will do the world of good.

 

[Bergen Blade]

Just out of interest...Do you agree with Wilder’s apparent lack of flexibility on those five points?

Yes. I think there's less of a necessity to have left footers to the left etc in other formations and styles, but for us it's really important. I thought Wilder had decided to scrap that "rule" by playing Ampadu at LCB vs Liverpool, but I was happy when I saw he was in midfield.

Regarding the players, obviously we can't rule out players drastically improving. If say Norwood's been carrying some sort of unknown injury that's prevented him for training hard and running at 100% speed, and he recovers from that, maybe we'll have to reassess. But based on recent performances we can only just about get by - against some teams - if he plays in a three man midfield.

 

[Swinton Blade]

Verrips
Baldock Bash Egan Robinson Stevens
Berge Ampadu Osborn
McGoldrick Burke

Subs - Ramsdale Jagielka Bogle Norwood Brewster Sharp McBurnie

Brewster on for Robbo, with Ampadu dropping to CB on 60/65mins.
Bogle on for McGoldrick on 75mins, with Burke dropping in to MacG's No.10 role.
on 85mins (last 15mins, inc injury time!? ) McBurnie on for Burke.

Sub's dependent for how the game is panning out!.

The above gives us a chance to have a look at squad/new players, in a game we're not expected to take anything from.

Why would you drop ramsdale?

 

[Bergen Blade]

He’s basically saying that until Wilder goes then we’ll play that formation all the time, surely you can see the flaws in this mate? We must be easy to scout at the minute!

Was it only on Norwegian TV pre match the team vs Liverpool was set up completely different to what we actually played? I was very disappointed when I saw that team, but delighted as the game started and realised they'd got it wrong.

I think Klopp may have thought they'd be facing the team that played Fulham, or similar, so I think we showed we can surprise teams despite not changing the formation. We do have Plan B formations that we can turn to during games as well, although that may be an area to improve. We were a bit more proactive with the formation in the Championship.

 

[FallowfieldBlade]

Rambo

Baldock —Bash —Egan —- Enda—Ozzy


Berge——-Amapadu———Lunny


Mcburnie ———Burke



Whatever team we play just don’t play jack robinson

Keep enda at LCB and Osborne deserves a run at LWB after his performance against Liverpool

 

[bongleblade]

He didn't. He said he thinks it would be more interesting if people made suggestions that have a chance of being implemented.

i mean, however enjoyable it is to
make suggestions, whether they are implementable or not, they make no difference either way, i could suggest us playing a revolutionary 2-4-2–1-1 formation which would beat the world and change football forever, and it still wouldnt matter one bit, its just something fun to do on a footie forum in this extremely dull period of no crowds football

 

[Bergen Blade]

I just think the next game against City is a chance for us to try something different where we can stop the rot.

City barely have anyone up top, they try to attack from deep and find spaces in the midfield, I think we should have the extra body in there for this specific game never mind the fact we need to stop the rot and it’s a free hit so to speak. City can be beaten but I fear we won’t if we keep our usual shape, Pep ain’t daft but we could Chuck a right curve ball in.

Leicester (5-2) and West Ham (1-1) were really/quite successful playing 5-4-1 against City. Leeds (1-1) played 4-5-1. Man City have won all other games this season.

I don't think Bash and Egan would be good enough to cope with the skill, pace and movement of their side, even if they do struggle with injuries up front.

Moving Basham into midfield was a tactical move we used in spells of games in the Championship and sometimes it helped made us able to compete better in midfield. Maybe Wilder is reluctant to play Bash in midfield in the Premier League, but that versatility could be something we'll look for in his eventual replacement. So I agree adding another body in midfield could be something that we'd turn to, but realistically not from the start.

 

[Balham]

Was it only on Norwegian TV pre match the team vs Liverpool was set up completely different to what we actually played? I was very disappointed when I saw that team, but delighted as the game started and realised they'd got it wrong.

I think Klopp may have thought they'd be facing the team that played Fulham, or similar, so I think we showed we can surprise teams despite not changing the formation. We do have Plan B formations that we can turn to during games as well, although that may be an area to improve. We were a bit more proactive with the formation in the Championship.

Our own Twitter account probably added to the confusion:

 

[sufcboy95]

We haven’t started with 3 forwards for about 2 years, we certainly aren’t starting against City

 

[Bergen Blade]

So every manager knows how we’re going to set up every week and we should change nothing to address our absolutely woeful form Bergen?

A game against Man City, where we are out of form, where no one expects us to get anything other than some of our own fans, is the perfect game to try something a little different and out of the stubborn box, stubborn being something I never had Wilder down for by the way.

This isn’t a knee jerk post, the results and performances have not been good enough and our midfield needs another body in there as they are clearly tiring after less than an hour, surely everyone including your tactically nous self can see this BB?

I think it’s not only disrespectful to posters to suggest they can’t suggest anything else but it shuts down all the topic of how we can and must improve. It’s not a case of changing one or two of the personnel, we need to adapt our tactics, formations and personnel combined to clubs that are adapting to us and this is the place to discuss it.

Over the years I've desperately suggested alternative formations myself. It's annoying when you see the team struggling and strongly feel a change could improve things.

But Wilder has stated he thinks the formation is ok and said the players just need to perform better within it. Previously he's said he sacrificed the number 10 for a so called flat midfield. McGoldrick said playing a number 10 behind two strikers would be "suicidal" at this level. We're searching for the right balance and haven't been far off in any of our games. Let's not lose hope yet.

This doesn't mean Wilder won't be looking to make tweaks; changes in personnel and roles, and for me he found a good midfield solution against Liverpool. For now I think Ampadu at DCM and Berge at RCM is worth persevering with. At LCM Lundstram's got the shirt, Osborn is an option and Fleck will return in a while. I see huge benefits, defensively and offensively, if we can keep that midfield.

 

[McDonagh Blade]

I don't understand the general dislike of Jack Robinson, ok he is not a JOC, however he has been nowhere near as culpable as Enda Stevens on goals conceded this season.

Wilder however said lcb is the best position for Enda atm but why try to get him in the starting eleven at all?

 

[kevreedy]

I would go with no change from the starting line against Liverpool.unless they are injuries.
The Blades would have beaten them with better refereeing.we played the way we are used too.
I think we can beat man city at the Lane next Saturday. if we play the way we did against Liverpool.

 

[wizadry]

Was it only on Norwegian TV pre match the team vs Liverpool was set up completely different to what we actually played? I was very disappointed when I saw that team, but delighted as the game started and realised they'd got it wrong.

I think Klopp may have thought they'd be facing the team that played Fulham, or similar, so I think we showed we can surprise teams despite not changing the formation. We do have Plan B formations that we can turn to during games as well, although that may be an area to improve. We were a bit more proactive with the formation in the Championship.

Good post and good points well made Bergen although I do think we were forced into one or two changes as Wilder clearly sees one or two incapable of playing at the minute.

Your point was made that well that the lineup even had me confused when I saw us set up

Like you say it does need to improve though as we have players there and he’s spent quite a lot of money so he should have a plan C and plan D in theory.

 

[wizadry]

Leicester (5-2) and West Ham (1-1) were really/quite successful playing 5-4-1 against City. Leeds (1-1) played 4-5-1. Man City have won all other games this season.

I don't think Bash and Egan would be good enough to cope with the skill, pace and movement of their side, even if they do struggle with injuries up front.

Moving Basham into midfield was a tactical move we used in spells of games in the Championship and sometimes it helped made us able to compete better in midfield. Maybe Wilder is reluctant to play Bash in midfield in the Premier League, but that versatility could be something we'll look for in his eventual replacement. So I agree adding another body in midfield could be something that we'd turn to, but realistically not from the start.

The spaces they find are in between the midfield and defence, probably the best in the business at doing so and that’s why I’d play with an extra body in midfield, even if it means we play with one less up top but I don’t think we’d need to do that.

What they do as I’m sure you’re very well aware Bergs is they try to find the space in the middle of the park and play very quick one-twos to create the chances, we must at least try to stop this because if we do we have a great chance of coming out with a good result.

 

[wizadry]

Over the years I've desperately suggested alternative formations myself. It's annoying when you see the team struggling and strongly feel a change could improve things.

But Wilder has stated he thinks the formation is ok and said the players just need to perform better within it. Previously he's said he sacrificed the number 10 for a so called flat midfield. McGoldrick said playing a number 10 behind two strikers would be "suicidal" at this level. We're searching for the right balance and haven't been far off in any of our games. Let's not lose hope yet.

This doesn't mean Wilder won't be looking to make tweaks; changes in personnel and roles, and for me he found a good midfield solution against Liverpool. For now I think Ampadu at DCM and Berge at RCM is worth persevering with. At LCM Lundstram's got the shirt, Osborn is an option and Fleck will return in a while. I see huge benefits, defensively and offensively, if we can keep that midfield.

As you allude to, it’s pure frustration that makes us want changes and to better our chances, some do it straight away, some wait, this has been etching away for quite some time. We haven’t only just started to struggle, we’ve been struggling overall for some time barring the odd very good half of football in the last 10 months or so, if we want to stay in this league then we must do better than a few decent first halfs against the odd team and also not start games trying to hold on for a draw as long as possible in less games.

 

[Bergen Blade]

The spaces they find are in between the midfield and defence, probably the best in the business at doing so and that’s why I’d play with an extra body in midfield, even if it means we play with one less up top but I don’t think we’d need to do that.

What they do as I’m sure you’re very well aware Bergs is they try to find the space in the middle of the park and play very quick one-twos to create the chances, we must at least try to stop this because if we do we have a great chance of coming out with a good result.

In terms of athleticism a midfield of Berge, Ampadu and Lundstram is a match for any teams in the division, and they are also decent in possession, if not amazingly creative. If we can keep them fit and make use of Osborn and Fleck too I think we have a real chance of improving. Ampadu will read the game, win a lot of challenges in midfield and give us more chances to break.

 

[Swannyblade]

Yes. I think there's less of a necessity to have left footers to the left etc in other formations and styles, but for us it's really important. I thought Wilder had decided to scrap that "rule" by playing Ampadu at LCB vs Liverpool, but I was happy when I saw he was in midfield.

Regarding the players, obviously we can't rule out players drastically improving. If say Norwood's been carrying some sort of unknown injury that's prevented him for training hard and running at 100% speed, and he recovers from that, maybe we'll have to reassess. But based on recent performances we can only just about get by - against some teams - if he plays in a three man midfield.

Not saying we won’t pick up any points from the upcoming games, but I do wonder how bad the situation would have to get before Wilder considers a change of system or formation. Previously he’s been quite bold and proactive in making adjustments when it’s not working for us (in terms of formation, system and personnel) eg. Switch to back five in Lge 1, changing to a flat midfield three in the Premier, no sentiment shown to players when we need to upgrade, quick to move players on who proved to be the wrong signings.
I do wonder why we are now apparently reluctant to change the formation or tweak the system when it’s not working for us. It may be true that player performance levels have dropped, but with some key figures missing through injury and confidence at a low there’s no guarantee that we’ll recapture the same levels as last season.

 

[CW7]

We played well agains liverpool, were unlucky not to get one point. I hope we reward the players who played well with gametime against City!

 

[Bergen Blade]

Not saying we won’t pick up any points from the upcoming games, but I do wonder how bad the situation would have to get before Wilder considers a change of system or formation. Previously he’s been quite bold and proactive in making adjustments when it’s not working for us (in terms of formation, system and personnel) eg. Switch to back five in Lge 1, changing to a flat midfield three in the Premier, no sentiment shown to players when we need to upgrade, quick to move players on who proved to be the wrong signings.
I do wonder why we are now apparently reluctant to change the formation or tweak the system when it’s not working for us. It may be true that player performance levels have dropped, but with some key figures missing through injury and confidence at a low there’s no guarantee that we’ll recapture the same levels as last season.

I'm hoping the success of Ampadu in the holding role vs Liverpool will prove a turning point for us, similar to the ones you mention.