SCC accused of bias in WC bidding

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My professional take on this is that it is likely to fall at the first hurdle.

Judicial review cases are incredibly hard to succeed with. To succeed you have to show, if you are doing it on the basis of irrationality (as United appear to be) that the public authority in question reached a decision that no reasonable public authority could have reached. Initially a judge looks at the papers and if he concludes that is not even arguable he refuses permission to apply for judicial review. That refusal can be challenged at a hearing but if the refusal is maintained thats the end of the line.

If permission is granted, there is a full hearing where both sides argues their case. The decision does not depend on who a judge thinks should have got the nod. He can quite validly conclude that he would have given the nod to United but that the Council's decision was still within the bounds of reasonability and thus refuse to overturn it. If the decision is overturned it doesn't mean BL gets the WC place. The Council would then have to go away and make the decision again and they could once again choose Hillsborough as long as they chose it on proper grounds.

Nothing in the above article makes me think a High Court judge will even think it arguable the decision was unreasonable. As such, I expect the challenge to fall at the first hurdle. But then I was wrong about Tevez...

hehe, i was going to point that out until I got to the last sentence and you did it for me. Cheers for the input though I genuinely am interested to read opinions that have foundation and coming from someone in the profession it's good to be able to get a clearer idea of what is happening. Incidentally I always thought we would win the Tevez case but I must admit I was clueless with the processes we had to follow.

My take like many is that we should just forget this one, it's nothing like the Tevez case for me which to be honest at the end I was disappointed that we settled even if it was a good deal financially. The morality of it all was the sickener for me and I was saddened that in the end as always it came down to hard money.
 

There's a few good points made here which I would like to touch on/respond to but I'm on the mobile at the minute and couldn't type that much on here.

Will answer in due course :D
 
A few years later Sheffield bid for the 1991 World Student Games and had to spend millions on building the Don Valley Stadium, and all the rest of the supporting venues. Sheffielders are still paying for the mess. If they'd approved the Bramall Lane development in the first place, they could have had a stadium in place.

The World Student Games, i was a helper for this at 13 years old and used to go up to Hyde Park flats (student flats) and help give the competitors directions although in reality it was two weeks of fucking about and not doing what i should have been.
 
Judicial review cases are incredibly hard to succeed with. To succeed you have to show, if you are doing it on the basis of irrationality (as United appear to be) that the public authority in question reached a decision that no reasonable public authority could have reached.

If the article is correct, the argument isn't irrationality at all. They are using another avenue JR can be pursued down, namely procedural irregularity. United's complaint is that the correct procedures were not followed in approving planning permission for the Sty. Bias is thrown in as an additional/sub ground.

I am 100% against this because the way the team is being run and resourced at present we don't need this additional circus.

Given that we are pleading poverty I fail to see why we should incur further non related football debts in expanding the ground as this will merely lengthen the period within which the team is underfunded and our good players are sold.

Team first, ground later.
 
Who's going on the "Campaign for Fairness in Planning" march??
 
I was thinking more Team America:

"Great work team lets all meet back at HQ for debreifing and cocktails" :D

Let me explain to you the kind of man Swiss is. He's a man who knows that when you put another man's cock in your mouth, you make a pact. A bond that cannot be broken. He's a man so dedicated that he will get down on his knees and put that cock right in his mouth.
 
Birch does as he is told [or his remit is laid down] McC is where the buck stops.
 
Its not whether its a battle we should fight, but whether the prize is worth winning...
Don't necessarily agree with you here Dunc, it is all about whether or not its a battle we should fight, and it will be very much a matter of principle on McCabe's behalf. Why the bloody hell shouldn't he fight this injustice in the same way he fought and won the Tevez affair? If I thought it distracted from sorting the massive problems we have at the moment regarding Blackwell and the running of the football club in general then I would argue differently, but I don't see any reason why it should do.
 
Don't necessarily agree with you here Dunc, it is all about whether or not its a battle we should fight, and it will be very much a matter of principle on McCabe's behalf. Why the bloody hell shouldn't he fight this injustice in the same way he fought and won the Tevez affair? If I thought it distracted from sorting the massive problems we have at the moment regarding Blackwell and the running of the football club in general then I would argue differently, but I don't see any reason why it should do.

Because legal cases cost money and there would seem to be a fairly strong argument that this money could be put to better use.
 

You seem to know your stuff fella, but I question this bit....

To gain the potential for 2 - 3 matches in 8 years time, we have to promise to undertake very significant ground upgrades. I'd bet there's a further £20M of debt headed our way to complete the work.

After we were rejected,, the whole building thing was put on the back burner - so it doesn't fly by itself.

Do you have any thoughts as to how 15% revenue from 3 matches (probably not sold out) could possibly give a payback on the "£20M"

As far as the first point is concerned, the upgrades that have been disclosed are nothing new to the fans (With the exceptions of the visuals provided by the architects WCEC of Nottingham) as its long been the plan to upgrade the stadium in phases. Now maybe this isnt specifically to increase the capacity, but with the WC bid underway, it made sense to tie all this together. As for the revenues generated, the amount of this would be dependant on the number of matches played at the lane coupled with the teams which would compete based on the groups produced at the draw. Working on the basis of "Cost effective Football" and at least 1 seeded (read highly rated) within the group, i think that the income could generate ~£1m in ticket sales alone, then you add any corperate availability, additional sponsorship etc this would be additional income into the club which we would normally not see during the off season.

Also the benefits of this happening could be benefitial in the long term. Granted, unless we reach the premiership our own matches are unlikely to fill the ground however after the WC the ground would likely be seen as an international venue and as such with the increase of friendly matches between european countries and especially south american and african countires being played within europe for ease of travel, its not beyond the realm of possability that we could then easily handle such matches and generate even more income into the club.

As for the Build cost of the development, There has never been a better time to carry out the works than right now. The industry is seeing build costs reduced to ~ 75% of there actual value at least compared to those during the contruction boom that has been the previous 5+ years.

Now the figure of £20m is a difficult one to answer. Firstly The club will have a budget to work to anyway, based on available funding (Wether that be monies already available or monies raised is unknown) and works will be designed to suit. Its difficult for me to place an exact value on the works based on what is available, as the drawings are only planning drawings and there are many variables that are unknown for exaple the ground conditions etc. But i would expect that the proposed works to the Kop for example would cost £5-6m ish. The south stand is different simply because of the corporate facilities, and amount of internal space, however i still believe that this could be acheived for ~£10m maybe less. What needs to be made clear is that both propositions seem to be based on extensions rather than complete new stands (Like John Street) and as such, as long as the existing structures can be used as partial footprints we would only be tagging onto them.

Following discussion that have taken place, i know that the development of the Kop is something that will be going ahead regardless of the WC bid. The original proposal was to start the intial background works in January of this year, subject to the clubs position at christmas. The clubs aspirations havent materialised and such the work has been put back, how long for? who knows. It could start in the summer it maybe next year but it will go.

Re: the Planning...Depends if it was Outline or Full permission, then again you'd expect the 12 week statutory period to be adhered to as its technically a Major Application - over a certain additional floorspace. I would assume that a full TP/TA would have been submitted with the proposal but this would be limited by whether the proposal was Outline? The submission of detailed information for Highways could have been conditioned and be dealt with at Reserved Matters but that would be unusual as Highways is a fundamental for any large scale development.

It all depends on whether the proposal was in Outline form or was a Full Application for Planning Permission. Does anyone know?

SCC would have to follow due process like anyone else, as long as they advertised the application correctly there is scope for an early decision - usually if it has economic imperative, if there's been substantial pre-application negotiations or if there's been a PPA.

What was the arrangement for the bid? Was it like a normal tender process?

I believe that the individual bids would have needed to be based on full planning approvals. Simply because outline planning approvals are basically the council just saying yes, and the information o submit for outline is extremely basic. A simple drawing of the site area with a coloured line showing where the "Site" would be is pretty much all thats needed for submission along with the relevant paperwork being completed. Our Planning application was full, as was the piggies. Interestingly enough, the last time i searched the SCC website for the applications ours has been there a while. Theres on the other hand wasnt, and the only one of theres that is is for a "Portakabin" style kiosk. hmmmm interesting.

My understanding of the situation was that the bid process was very much like a standard tendering procedure, with the exception of submitting a "Price" along with it. All clubs had to provide the details and approvals to demonstrate that all could be acheived in the time frame given. and all had to meet the criteria set out by the bid committee.


Where's pigs gonna get £22M from?

£22m is Strap-ons tagline. Im pretty confident that the build cost of what they are proposing is substantially more. Simply becasue they are planning on development of 3 sides of the ground, leaving the south stand in place and simply renevating it. Its pretty certain that they would expect that the majority of the funding would be expected through grants etc.

Now wether it would be them or us, i believe that there would be a certain value of funds (or a grant) provided by SCC, simply due to the cities bid being in conjunction with SCC, but how much this would be for is anyones guess.

Because legal cases cost money and there would seem to be a fairly strong argument that this money could be put to better use.

I agree with you completely on this, which is why i think its a bad time for this to be released. Maybe it should have been done behind closed doors if they are adamant its something to persue. However on the subject of funding the legal fees, it would be interesting if this would be the club, or McCabe himself, if its the latter then for me he can fill his boots with this :D
 
I agree with you completely on this, which is why i think its a bad time for this to be released. Maybe it should have been done behind closed doors if they are adamant its something to persue. However on the subject of funding the legal fees, it would be interesting if this would be the club, or McCabe himself, if its the latter then for me he can fill his boots with this :D

But even in Mccabe is using his own money, if he has money to spare that he is willing to spend on SUFC, I would rather it be in the pockets of decent players rather than lawyers (unless that lawyer is me :-))
 
But even in Mccabe is using his own money, if he has money to spare that he is willing to spend on SUFC, I would rather it be in the pockets of decent players rather than lawyers (unless that lawyer is me :-))

I take your point completely on this and dont dissagree, but consider the fact that speculating say £1m could infact generate £5m would this not be a calculated risk worth taking?

(Disclaimer: Before anyone makes any comments regarding the figures, these are purely hypothetical and in no way are any figures to quote in the future ;) :p)
 
Is it just from Munchies to the Chippy and back then?
 
As far as the first point is concerned, the upgrades that have been disclosed are nothing new to the fans (With the exceptions of the visuals provided by the architects WCEC of Nottingham) as its long been the plan to upgrade the stadium in phases. Now maybe this isnt specifically to increase the capacity, but with the WC bid underway, it made sense to tie all this together. As for the revenues generated, the amount of this would be dependant on the number of matches played at the lane coupled with the teams which would compete based on the groups produced at the draw. Working on the basis of "Cost effective Football" and at least 1 seeded (read highly rated) within the group, i think that the income could generate ~£1m in ticket sales alone, then you add any corperate availability, additional sponsorship etc this would be additional income into the club which we would normally not see during the off season.

Also the benefits of this happening could be benefitial in the long term. Granted, unless we reach the premiership our own matches are unlikely to fill the ground however after the WC the ground would likely be seen as an international venue and as such with the increase of friendly matches between european countries and especially south american and african countires being played within europe for ease of travel, its not beyond the realm of possability that we could then easily handle such matches and generate even more income into the club.

As for the Build cost of the development, There has never been a better time to carry out the works than right now. The industry is seeing build costs reduced to ~ 75% of there actual value at least compared to those during the contruction boom that has been the previous 5+ years.

Now the figure of £20m is a difficult one to answer. Firstly The club will have a budget to work to anyway, based on available funding (Wether that be monies already available or monies raised is unknown) and works will be designed to suit. Its difficult for me to place an exact value on the works based on what is available, as the drawings are only planning drawings and there are many variables that are unknown for exaple the ground conditions etc. But i would expect that the proposed works to the Kop for example would cost £5-6m ish. The south stand is different simply because of the corporate facilities, and amount of internal space, however i still believe that this could be acheived for ~£10m maybe less. What needs to be made clear is that both propositions seem to be based on extensions rather than complete new stands (Like John Street) and as such, as long as the existing structures can be used as partial footprints we would only be tagging onto them.

Following discussion that have taken place, i know that the development of the Kop is something that will be going ahead regardless of the WC bid. The original proposal was to start the intial background works in January of this year, subject to the clubs position at christmas. The clubs aspirations havent materialised and such the work has been put back, how long for? who knows. It could start in the summer it maybe next year but it will go.



I believe that the individual bids would have needed to be based on full planning approvals. Simply because outline planning approvals are basically the council just saying yes, and the information o submit for outline is extremely basic. A simple drawing of the site area with a coloured line showing where the "Site" would be is pretty much all thats needed for submission along with the relevant paperwork being completed. Our Planning application was full, as was the piggies. Interestingly enough, the last time i searched the SCC website for the applications ours has been there a while. Theres on the other hand wasnt, and the only one of theres that is is for a "Portakabin" style kiosk. hmmmm interesting.

My understanding of the situation was that the bid process was very much like a standard tendering procedure, with the exception of submitting a "Price" along with it. All clubs had to provide the details and approvals to demonstrate that all could be acheived in the time frame given. and all had to meet the criteria set out by the bid committee.




£22m is Strap-ons tagline. Im pretty confident that the build cost of what they are proposing is substantially more. Simply becasue they are planning on development of 3 sides of the ground, leaving the south stand in place and simply renevating it. Its pretty certain that they would expect that the majority of the funding would be expected through grants etc.

Now wether it would be them or us, i believe that there would be a certain value of funds (or a grant) provided by SCC, simply due to the cities bid being in conjunction with SCC, but how much this would be for is anyones guess.



I agree with you completely on this, which is why i think its a bad time for this to be released. Maybe it should have been done behind closed doors if they are adamant its something to persue. However on the subject of funding the legal fees, it would be interesting if this would be the club, or McCabe himself, if its the latter then for me he can fill his boots with this :D

MAQ the extent of information required in the Outline submission depends on which matters are reserved. If its a big scheme in Outline I would be surprised if the SCC would approve a simple red line delineating the extent of the site and nothing more. Agreeing something in principle of such a scale without having any understanding or consideration of Highways impact or other matters would surprise me.

I think the days of a simple Outline proposal with a red line and nothing more are behind us :( I've had Council's trying to get contributions and an S106 signed up on an Outline recently!
 
Also the benefits of this happening could be benefitial in the long term. Granted, unless we reach the premiership our own matches are unlikely to fill the ground however after the WC the ground would likely be seen as an international venue and as such with the increase of friendly matches between european countries and especially south american and african countires being played within europe for ease of travel, its not beyond the realm of possability that we could then easily handle such matches and generate even more income into the club

This is just nuts.

The ground is never going to be a regular international venue for 3 simple reasons:

1. It isn't in London.

2. It's nowhere near an airport.

3. It will be smaller than loads of other stadia even when finished.

It will only be used to greater capacity than it currently has if we ger promoted, and we have given up on investing in that.
 
Rev, have you never seen "Field Of Dreams"??
 
>The SCC have form here. Remember the superstadium development that Reg Brearley put forward
yes mate.. that is the one i was on about

i got diverted past the sty yesterday.. lets just say this. .they have a LOT of work to do to get that place even up to the standard of our place never mind WC standard.. good luck lads .. heh..
 
>are you insinuating that any bias that was allegedly prevalent over 20 years ago is still being practiced within the Council by those that you mentioned
sorry mate .. i didn't realise that you were being sarcastic
 
Rev, have you never seen "Field Of Dreams"??

Yes. The protagonist neglects his primary business in favour of screwing around with his property, which almost bankrupts him...until ghosts start coming through his corn.

If someone sees Jock Dodds wandering down Shoreham Street, we're in business.

Another parallel - Paddy Kenny = Shoeless Joe Jackson.
 
I take your point completely on this and dont dissagree, but consider the fact that speculating say £1m could infact generate £5m would this not be a calculated risk worth taking?

(Disclaimer: Before anyone makes any comments regarding the figures, these are purely hypothetical and in no way are any figures to quote in the future ;) :p)

There are lots of ways of speculating and the worst decision McCabe has made is getting rid of Walker.
Even with the rest of the upheaval, keeping him would have given us a potential chance of the lottery of the play-offs which in turn would have sold more season tickets.
Failure to do both is likely to cost as much as his transfer fee in lost attendance and associated commercial revenue in the short to medium term.
At the very least, sale should have been accompanied with a cast iron guarantee on the year loan.
 
As far as the first point is concerned, the upgrades that have been disclosed are nothing new to the fans (With the exceptions of the visuals provided by the architects WCEC of Nottingham) as its long been the plan to upgrade the stadium in phases. Now maybe this isnt specifically to increase the capacity, but with the WC bid underway, it made sense to tie all this together. As for the revenues generated, the amount of this would be dependant on the number of matches played at the lane coupled with the teams which would compete based on the groups produced at the draw. Working on the basis of "Cost effective Football" and at least 1 seeded (read highly rated) within the group, i think that the income could generate ~£1m in ticket sales alone, then you add any corperate availability, additional sponsorship etc this would be additional income into the club which we would normally not see during the off season.

Also the benefits of this happening could be benefitial in the long term. Granted, unless we reach the premiership our own matches are unlikely to fill the ground however after the WC the ground would likely be seen as an international venue and as such with the increase of friendly matches between european countries and especially south american and african countires being played within europe for ease of travel, its not beyond the realm of possability that we could then easily handle such matches and generate even more income into the club.

As for the Build cost of the development, There has never been a better time to carry out the works than right now. The industry is seeing build costs reduced to ~ 75% of there actual value at least compared to those during the contruction boom that has been the previous 5+ years.

Now the figure of £20m is a difficult one to answer. Firstly The club will have a budget to work to anyway, based on available funding (Wether that be monies already available or monies raised is unknown) and works will be designed to suit. Its difficult for me to place an exact value on the works based on what is available, as the drawings are only planning drawings and there are many variables that are unknown for exaple the ground conditions etc. But i would expect that the proposed works to the Kop for example would cost £5-6m ish. The south stand is different simply because of the corporate facilities, and amount of internal space, however i still believe that this could be acheived for ~£10m maybe less. What needs to be made clear is that both propositions seem to be based on extensions rather than complete new stands (Like John Street) and as such, as long as the existing structures can be used as partial footprints we would only be tagging onto them.

Following discussion that have taken place, i know that the development of the Kop is something that will be going ahead regardless of the WC bid. The original proposal was to start the intial background works in January of this year, subject to the clubs position at christmas. The clubs aspirations havent materialised and such the work has been put back, how long for? who knows. It could start in the summer it maybe next year but it will go.



I believe that the individual bids would have needed to be based on full planning approvals. Simply because outline planning approvals are basically the council just saying yes, and the information o submit for outline is extremely basic. A simple drawing of the site area with a coloured line showing where the "Site" would be is pretty much all thats needed for submission along with the relevant paperwork being completed. Our Planning application was full, as was the piggies. Interestingly enough, the last time i searched the SCC website for the applications ours has been there a while. Theres on the other hand wasnt, and the only one of theres that is is for a "Portakabin" style kiosk. hmmmm interesting.

My understanding of the situation was that the bid process was very much like a standard tendering procedure, with the exception of submitting a "Price" along with it. All clubs had to provide the details and approvals to demonstrate that all could be acheived in the time frame given. and all had to meet the criteria set out by the bid committee.




£22m is Strap-ons tagline. Im pretty confident that the build cost of what they are proposing is substantially more. Simply becasue they are planning on development of 3 sides of the ground, leaving the south stand in place and simply renevating it. Its pretty certain that they would expect that the majority of the funding would be expected through grants etc.

Now wether it would be them or us, i believe that there would be a certain value of funds (or a grant) provided by SCC, simply due to the cities bid being in conjunction with SCC, but how much this would be for is anyones guess.



I agree with you completely on this, which is why i think its a bad time for this to be released. Maybe it should have been done behind closed doors if they are adamant its something to persue. However on the subject of funding the legal fees, it would be interesting if this would be the club, or McCabe himself, if its the latter then for me he can fill his boots with this :D


Thanks for your response, and excellent post.

Has there been any promise of money from SCC, because I'm not aware of any?

The part I'm interested in is the payback on the building. I think now the premiership froth has gone, it's clear we're miles away from this, and miles away from needing ground expansion. Even the kop, though basic, will suffice. So I can't see us, and hope we don't, start on any development until as was originally stated, we are "an established premiership club".

Given the above, the winning of the bid would push us to make upgrades that we would not otherwise be doing. Be it £10M (hghly unlikely), £20M or £30M, It's additional debt to our existing £50M - and simply way too high for me.

So I think the upgrades would be for the WC alone. Assuming 3 sold out matches at £50 average ticket (and I don't think we'd sell out, or average £50 a ticket) then you have £6M of ticket revenue, a maximum I believe of 15% of which is available to the club. So we'd generate less than £1M, in my view at a massive push.

You can throw in hospitality, but in reality how much is this? In the most wild calculations., I can't see the whole lot giving us more that £2M. Yet it will cost us probably 10 times that, with an annual interests bill probably swallowing the one off windfall, hampering us for 20 more years thereafter..

If SCC pick up the tab, it's a different story. But I doubt very much they will - all bids were won based on no funding from the FA. I doubt the FA will be happy about speculative grants from the council, which will be vehemently opposed by 2/3Rd's or the city.

So for me losing the bid was a get of of the crap free card, and this action though morally justifiable, is just another route to the poor house and inevitable negative national publicity.

Let the porkers have it. We're well shot.

UTB
 
Suspision - The council would prefer swillsborough because it generates more for the city as a whole.
 

I think the council has said no money is going to SWFC for ground improvements.
 

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