Tactically outdone

[Millhousesblade1889]

that will come

its all new to us, we are very much learning we are capable

we can be negative about it or say we've only lost one more than man city have
some of the football at times we have played has been astounding
I had no idea we'd be as good as we have been
but all teams are looking to be all things within each 90 minutes
we don't have 750m pounds worth of talent like some
we have to factor in our strength is our togetherness way above our talent
we just don't have or ever could match the quality some teams have built up over the years

Agree prospective suggests we need to ground out survival with gritty draws and smash n grab wins.

However it’s not what we’ve been about for years so it’s hard to get used to.

 

[blade too long]

Agree prospective suggests we need to ground out survival with gritty draws and smash n grab wins.

However it’s not what we’ve been about for years so it’s hard to get used to.

To be honest reading away and bolton away just dont scare any player as much as going to chelsea and Everton
its all a matter of scale

the task we face is combatting teams most of whom think they have a divine right to be in the prem
to be fair 7 or 8 do, they are the mountains we have to climb
we have romped over the pennines , but now we tackle the Himalayas

 

[FMBlade1]

I'm more interested in discussing tactics on this thread rather than making negative predictions, but the concerns about the former leads me to the latter.

Everton were/are hopeless and they are surely going to change their manager soon. That doesn't take anything away from what our result, but we can't rely on other teams nonperforming.

I'd be interested in what people make of our tactics... or maybe we are just fine the way we are and can continue in the same vein? (genuine questions)

Well Everton have got rid of their manager, no surprise there.

As for the tactics... more food for thought unfortunately on the same themes. Wilder himself said he was disappointed we didn't go more direct in the last few minutes but then we don't have a Carroll or Crouch in our team so it's tricky. Really we have too many similar strikers.

 

[Houston_Blade]

Well Everton have got rid of their manager, no surprise there.

As for the tactics... more food for thought unfortunately on the same themes. Wilder himself said he was disappointed we didn't go more direct in the last few minutes but then we don't have a Carroll or Crouch in our team so it's tricky. Really we have too many similar strikers.

How were Wilder's tactics for the previous 7 games, you know the ones we didn't lose? Is every loss down to bad tactics or could it just be that we came unstuck against 2 banks of 5? Unfortunately Bruce has worked out a style of play against us that gets points, Wilder tried changing things and as they retreated it just made the midfield and forward line more congested.

Bad day at the office, move on. We don't need to overhaul our system because of it.

 

[FMBlade1]

How were Wilder's tactics for the previous 7 games, you know the ones we didn't lose? Is every loss down to bad tactics or could it just be that we came unstuck against 2 banks of 5? Unfortunately Bruce has worked out a style of play against us that gets points, Wilder tried changing things and as they retreated it just made the midfield and forward line more congested.

Bad day at the office, move on. We don't need to overhaul our system because of it.

I'm not suggesting overhauling the system, I'm saying we need to execute a better plan B. Wilder said the same himself in his post match interview.

More teams will start to set up like Bruce and Rodgers have and we need to think about how to counter it.

 

[Houston_Blade]

I'm not suggesting overhauling the system, I'm saying we need to execute a better plan B. Wilder said the same himself in his post match interview.

More teams will start to set up like Bruce and Rodgers have and we need to think about how to counter it.

Not many teams will try to stifle us this year, what people seem to forget is that 'plan a' was only a thing when Mousset & McGoldrick started a few games together and we decided they were shit hot. That now seems to be regarded as what we've done all season. We've had success with various combinations, we don't need to learn how to bang a ball long just for the 2 or 3 games a season we might need to.

 

[GRUMPY BLADE]

I'm not suggesting overhauling the system, I'm saying we need to execute a better plan B. Wilder said the same himself in his post match interview.

More teams will start to set up like Bruce and Rodgers have and we need to think about how to counter it.

Plan B should have been to move the ball quicker.

Our triangles were'nt in place last night because we were too slow.

 

[CarlMcBlade]

Part poor finishing and part “superstar” goalkeeping, Prevented us from totally overrunning a very limited Newcastle team.

 

[cc1]

Bruce has found a way to get points against us? Didn't we put 4 past his expensively assembled villa side last season?

 

[CornwallBlade]

Well Everton have got rid of their manager, no surprise there.

As for the tactics... more food for thought unfortunately on the same themes. Wilder himself said he was disappointed we didn't go more direct in the last few minutes but then we don't have a Carroll or Crouch in our team so it's tricky. Really we have too many similar strikers.

I thought that was why we bought Mcburnie? Unfortunately he couldn’t win a challenge against the Under 16’s. We’d have been better off hanging on to Madine, at least he could bully defenders.

 

[Houston_Blade]

Bruce has found a way to get points against us? Didn't we put 4 past his expensively assembled villa side last season?

That’s when the penny dropped. He tried attacking and got battered so went ultra defensive.

 

[cc1]

That’s when the penny dropped. He tried attacking and got battered so went ultra defensive.

Genius !

 

[nopigfansintown]

Utter bollocks. They rode their luck big time.

 

[Barry Butlin]

9 times out of 10 we would have beaten Newcastle, fair play Newcastle are shite, good luck to them but they were a total disgraced!!!

 

[bypassblade]

Newcastle probably worst team we've played but they rode their luck big time, and did a number on us him who scored (looks like doing apre ski) god he's shite.

 

[FMBlade1]

What it does mean however is that Fleck has more of a chance of running at the defence from deep which he is good at but needs further work on.

Wilder has some serious thinking to do.

Much improvement on this front, delightful to see

 

[FMBlade1]

History repeated itself here

 

[Houston_Blade]

History repeated itself here

Wasn’t it the balmy temperature that caused us to lose?!

 

[FMBlade1]

How do we stop teams from pinning our wing-backs back? If they do it we need to go long, and if we do we need a better target man.

 

[ShockingBadBuy]

How do we stop teams from pinning our wing-backs back? If they do it we need to go long, and if we do we need a better target man.

It‘s surprising it doesn’t happen more often. Everyone knows how we play. Pin them back, sit on Norwood, and we struggle. Bielsa did it to us a season and a half ago.

 

[Balham]

How do we stop teams from pinning our wing-backs back? If they do it we need to go long, and if we do we need a better target man.

Teams pinning the wingbacks must, by definition, be committing men wide to do it. We need to be smarter through the middle or be brave enough to push the wingbacks even higher, perhaps by dropping Norwood deeper and the two wide centre halves outwards.

Easier said than done but for all the woe-is-me United-were-dreadful you have to accept that Leicester absolutely did a number on us last night. Pin the wingbacks, cut the small triangles off, shut down Norwood, use pace on the break. Job done.

 

[FMBlade1]

It‘s surprising it doesn’t happen more often. Everyone knows how we play. Pin them back, sit on Norwood, and we struggle. Bielsa did it to us a season and a half ago.

Bristol City did it as well I recall. And Newcastle. And Leicester. (Man City and Liverpool just outclassed us so don't count)

I'm not part of the 'found out brigade', that said Wilder will be looking at this and the future.

 

[Balham]

Bristol City did it as well I recall. And Newcastle. And Leicester. (Man City and Liverpool just outclassed us so don't count)

I'm not part of the 'found out brigade', that said Wilder will be looking at this and the future.

It requires real discipline from the other team, they have to match us for that. Very few sides are full of players with that attribute: Newcastle and Leicester are exceptions to the rule. Everton certainly aren't. Southampton might be.

Wilder does need to develop an effective Plan B though but it'll be difficult. The 4-1-2-1-2 diamond is probably the right alternative but we don't really have the players for the middle 2 and only McGoldrick in the current squad can play as the trequartista.

 

[Houston_Blade]

How do we stop teams from pinning our wing-backs back? If they do it we need to go long, and if we do we need a better target man.

It's the easiest way to nullify us, however not all teams seem to have the energy to do it. The other explanation is that some teams just think they can beat us playing their own game so don't try and stop us.

Bruce gets it, Klopp gets it, Rodgers gets it, Bielsa gets it.

The 15 mins that we played ok last night was when we were allowed to pass out from the back, the problem was that we'd changed formation and we didn't have a clue what we were doing in the new formation.

 

[FMBlade1]

Just seen the stats courtesy of Deadbat that we were 20th in the league for goals outside the box with just one (Mousset vs. Manchester United)

Something definitely to try to improve upon, which shouldn't jeopardize the way we play.

 

[bromtom]

Just seen the stats courtesy of Deadbat that we were 20th in the league for goals outside the box with just one (Mousset vs. Manchester United)

Something definitely to try to improve upon, which shouldn't jeopardize the way we play.

Depends, my theory on why we don't shoot from distance is that we commit so many men forward, the risk of a deflected shot leading to a counter is too high.

Say Fleck shoots from 30 odd yards, there's a good chance that a good percentage of Stevens, JOC, Baldock, Bash, and Berge will be about level with him or in front of him, plus whoever is up front.

Egan and Norwood are normally around the centre circle, but Norwood goes forwards and wide if he thinks he's going to be able to get the ball in, so there's no guarantee he'll be there either.

With the pace of breaks in the PL I think we just eliminate the risk by not really doing it, same as passing it out from the back.

Would be nice though to get some shots out around the edge of the box, I think that's less risky than pot shots. We often find ourselves on the corner of the box, take a shot instead of playing it down the wing. Mix it up.

 

[robbiez666]

Just seen the stats courtesy of Deadbat that we were 20th in the league for goals outside the box with just one (Mousset vs. Manchester United)

Something definitely to try to improve upon, which shouldn't jeopardize the way we play.

We're just too slow getting the ball forward. We rarely counter and if we do it's normally down the flanks. If we do work the ball into a shooting position the opposition has normally had time to get me behind the ball.

 

[HeySethUTB]

Need a very adept ball carrying midfielder who is capable of breaking through defensive lines, fleck is the closest thing we have to this and when he has demonstrated this ability its put teams of the back foot Villa, Burnley and Man Utd home games spring to mind. This would also partly solve the pinning in our fullbacks tactic because some players would have to run towards their own goal creating additional space in central areas to exploit releasing pressure and/or defenders would have to commit to stopping such a player. I know fleck and Lundstram are box to box ball winners but neither are top class ball carriers, unfortunately players who are cost money unless you can find a diamond in the rough.

 

[nopigfansintown]

United aim to create high quality chances within the perimeter of the eighteen yard box, rather than low percentage pot shots. Any shot from open play from further than 30 yards is almost always a result of bad decision making.
United have a number of players that break lines regularly. From defense: Basham, O'Connell, Baldock, Stevens. In midfield, Fleck and Lundstram(third man runs). Didzy who floats between the midfield and attacking lines. An interesting development was Berge who will carry the ball from deep in the midfield/defensive third and launch a counter. It got us in a couple of times on Sunday. What's obvious from that is how few we have based in the attacking half of the pitch, capable of launching counter attacks. The line breakers take a part in the slow build up play.

 

[OrderOfStGeorge]

Hardly surprising we are 20th with shots from outside the box we insist on trying to walk the ball in the net at every occasion it is incredibly frustrating.