Referee Inconsistency

[KeyffSmyff]

Not sure what this is but my thoughts are that a referee should have to stand up after the game and explain the decisions he's made rather than be hidden away.
As you say, everyone makes mistakes, BUT if you have to justify them afterwards you might just improve over time and stop making the same ones over and over.

Ex Ref Gallager goes on Sky Sports News and discusses the rights and wrongs of the weekends decisions on a Monday morning. Obvs heavily focused on Citeh, Liverpool etc. The wider aspect of why one tackle would be red and another yellow he goes over and will say if he thinks a ref. got something wrong, he is as close as we get to an official spokesman. Ref getting something wrong on the pitch is one thing (bad angle, diving etc), but the ref in the VAR unit should be correcting them.

 

[BushBlade]

Why the hell does the PL get to decide this? Surely FIFA who govern this and have implemented it should be telling them that if you are going to have it, it's going to be used correctly as per the World Cup. Otherwise, what's the point?

I half heard something on the radio earlier that either FIFA or UEFA are unhappy about the way the PL is implementing it.

No one wants to see VAR being used like it was in the women’s World Cup but the PL seem to be going too far the other way. I suspect the English refs didn’t want VAR, that in some way it undermines their authority on the pitch. So they’re paying lip service to it, just having the set up but using it as little as they possibly can.

 

[Rufus Smalls]

Watching MOTD2 last night I thought that Fabian Delph did a knee high studs showing foul much worse than Billy's but only worth a yellow card. Guess it is a case of who the refs know.

And then there’s the disgraceful follow through on Mason Mount tonight in the Champions League and guess what .......... just a yellow.

 

[Punk Blade]

VAR can overrule a goal and a penalty award but not a non penalty award.

What’s your source for this? I haven’t heard this mentioned anywhere.

This is what the PL website says about VAR and penalties:

All penalties awarded in the Premier League will automatically be checked by the Video Assistant Referee (VAR), who will also check for possible penalties not given by the on-field referee.

VAR: Penalty decisions

www.premierleague.com

 

[Silent Blade]

What’s your source for this? I haven’t heard this mentioned anywhere.

From MOTD on Sat night and there were a lot of discussion about this in here on Sunday.

 

[stringer]

What’s your source for this? I haven’t heard this mentioned anywhere.

This is what the PL website says about VAR and penalties:

VAR: Penalty decisions

www.premierleague.com

You won’t have. VAR can give penalties, it’s one of the points of its very existence

 

[Silent Blade]

Ref at Chelsea match tonight didnt award a penalty for a handball similar to Ward-Prowse's last Saturday but VAR made the ref review it and then he awarded Chelsea a penalty. It is a pity the PL doesnt allow the same thing.

 

[Punk Blade]

From MOTD on Sat night and there were a lot of discussion about this in here on Sunday.

I have no recollection of there being any suggestion on MOTD that potential missed penalties can’t be given with VAR assistance.

Why would you trust MOTD and discussion on here over the PL website? Why did VAR review the Ward-Prowse handball if there was no possibility of changing the on-field decision?

 

[Silent Blade]

I have no recollection of there being any suggestion on MOTD that potential missed penalties can’t be given with VAR assistance.

Why would you trust MOTD and discussion on here over the PL website? Why did VAR review the Ward-Prowse handball if there was no possibility of changing the on-field decision?

Dont you agree the handball in Chelsea's match tonight is very similar to Ward-Prowse's last Saturday? The ref didnt award a penalty until VAR told him to review it and then he changed his decision. It is a pity that the PL doesnt allow the same thing.

 

[Silent Blade]

I have no recollection of there being any suggestion on MOTD that potential missed penalties can’t be given with VAR assistance.

Why would you trust MOTD and discussion on here over the PL website? Why did VAR review the Ward-Prowse handball if there was no possibility of changing the on-field decision?

Give me an example when a referee missed a handball in a PL match and VAR made him change his mind?

 

[Punk Blade]

Dont you agree the handball in Chelsea's match tonight is very similar to Ward-Prowse's last Saturday? The ref didnt award a penalty until VAR told him to review it and then he changed his decision. It is a pity that the PL doesnt allow the same thing.

I haven’t seen the handball in the Chelsea match. However the PL does allow a missed handball for a penalty to be awarded. Unfortunately for us the standard for ‘clear and obvious error’ appears to be incredibly high, and the review for a possible missed penalty on Saturday did not meet the standard. But they did a VAR check for it.

Did you read the PL article on penalties or watch the little Alan Shearer video? It’s pretty clear that potential missed penalties are something that VAR is checking; you’re making up the notion that they aren’t and stating it as fact. Also of the four mistakes they have admitted regarding VAR, two were penalties that should have been given - they said they reviewed these two incidents and should have awarded a penalty.

Give me an example when a referee missed a handball in a PL match and VAR made him change his mind?

I don’t think VAR has awarded a handball penalty yet, but it will. It did give handball against Laporte to rule out Man City’s third against Spurs.

 

[Silent Blade]

I haven’t seen the handball in the Chelsea match. However the PL does allow a missed handball for a penalty to be awarded. Unfortunately for us the standard for ‘clear and obvious error’ appears to be incredibly high, and the review for a possible missed penalty on Saturday did not meet the standard. But they did a VAR check for it.

Did you read the PL article on penalties or watch the little Alan Shearer video? It’s pretty clear that potential missed penalties are something that VAR is checking; you’re making up the notion that they aren’t and stating it as fact. Also of the four mistakes they have admitted regarding VAR, two were penalties that should have been given - they said they reviewed these two incidents and should have awarded a penalty.

I don’t think VAR has awarded a handball penalty yet, but it will. It did give handball against Laporte to rule out Man City’s third against Spurs.

Man City's disallowed goal is not an answer to the question I am asking. I believethere hasn't been a match in the PL when VAR made the ref change his mind and revert the decision to a penalty. Wait and see if it will happen in the rest of the season. Am sure there are a few differences in VAR reviews in the CL and PL matches

 

[stringer]

Man City's disallowed goal is not an answer to the question I am asking. I believethere hasn't been a match in the PL when VAR made the ref change his mind and revert the decision to a penalty. Wait and see if it will happen in the rest of the season. Am sure there are a few differences in VAR reviews in the CL and PL matches

So are you saying VAR can’t give penalties, or hasn’t yet this season?

 

[Houston_Blade]

Man City's disallowed goal is not an answer to the question I am asking. I believethere hasn't been a match in the PL when VAR made the ref change his mind and revert the decision to a penalty. Wait and see if it will happen in the rest of the season. Am sure there are a few differences in VAR reviews in the CL and PL matches

VAR can give penalties, however it all goes back to the 'old boys club' of referees protecting their mates and not making their original decision look stupid.

The fact it hasn't happened just underlines a flaw in the subjective approach of VAR. At least in cricket some of the decisions follow a fact based approach (i.e. was it a no ball? did the ball hit in-line with the stumps? was it going on to hit the stumps? etc...) however there are still some situations in cricket where they refer to on-field calls if certain boxes aren't ticked.

 

[MobileBlade]

VAR can give penalties, however it all goes back to the 'old boys club' of referees protecting their mates and not making their original decision look stupid.

The fact it hasn't happened just underlines a flaw in the subjective approach of VAR. At least in cricket some of the decisions follow a fact based approach (i.e. was it a no ball? did the ball hit in-line with the stumps? was it going on to hit the stumps? etc...) however there are still some situations in cricket where they refer to on-field calls if certain boxes aren't ticked.

As I said in another thread, the difficult is that Premier League do not use pitch side monitors. Therefore, it is relying on a referee sat 200 miles away to overrule the referee. By having pitch side monitors, the VAR official advises the referee to have another look at it. In our case on Saturday, Lee Mason would have gone to review and then he himself would have decided whether he had missed it or got it wrong and then decide it was a penalty or not. As it stands, the reliance is on another officials saying that the on field official as made a mistake that is unlikely to happen.

 

[Punk Blade]

Man City's disallowed goal is not an answer to the question I am asking. I believethere hasn't been a match in the PL when VAR made the ref change his mind and revert the decision to a penalty. Wait and see if it will happen in the rest of the season. Am sure there are a few differences in VAR reviews in the CL and PL matches

You’re right there are differences to how it is implemented, but PL not allowing missed penalties is not one of them. ‘It hasn’t happened yet’ is quite different to ‘it isn’t allowed’.

VAR did, technically, award a penalty for Man City against West Ham, but that was a retake for encroachment.

And I did answer the question you asked...

Give me an example when a referee missed a handball in a PL match and VAR made him change his mind?

 

[Silent Blade]

So are you saying VAR can’t give penalties, or hasn’t yet this season?

As far as I know that in PL matches, VAR hasn't given any penalties apart from Punk Blade 's cheeky answer

 

[blade too long]

VAR gave a ridiculous penalty against Liverpool last night
to me its a terrible thing just adds more opinions to every argument
we had a goal rubbed out v southampton player in an offside position distracting the keeper
germany scored here goal given with Werner stood in line of a shot at goal





it was supposed to give consistancy of decisions but its doing the opposite
they keep changing the meaning of clear and obvious mistakes to suit
I refereed for 9 years , got on the league line, but footballs no clearer now than when we reffed alone in graves park

 

[Beans]

As I said in another thread, the difficult is that Premier League do not use pitch side monitors. Therefore, it is relying on a referee sat 200 miles away to overrule the referee. By having pitch side monitors, the VAR official advises the referee to have another look at it. In our case on Saturday, Lee Mason would have gone to review and then he himself would have decided whether he had missed it or got it wrong and then decide it was a penalty or not. As it stands, the reliance is on another officials saying that the on field official as made a mistake that is unlikely to happen.

I thought there were pitch-side monitors? As per this: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/0/var-premier-league-explained-does-work-decisions-can-changed/

How does this work in practice?

• The VAR speaks to the on-field referee through an earpiece, or vica versa, and the referee will put his hand up to pause play and inform the players a decision is being reviewed.
• VAR reviews the video footage of the incident and advises whether or not action should be taken. If there has been an error, the referee will draw a rectangle with his arms to replicate a TV a screen to change his original decision.
• In the case of more subjective incidents, the VAR will instruct the referee to watch a replay on a pitchside screen. This is known as an on-pitch review.

From the same article however:

However, the Premier League have enforced some of their own criteria with a view to minimising disruption to the flow of the game.

Firstly, referees have been told to avoid on-pitch reviews at the pitch-side screen whenever possible. These types of review are known to cause the longest delays. Instead, on-pitch referees have been told to trust the advice they are given by VAR.

There has also been a pledge from former referee Neil Swarbrick, the man leading VAR's implementation in the Premier League, to stick to a 'higher threshold' for reviewing decisions and only intervene in the case of 'clear and obvious' errors (does not apply to offsides, remember).

So it sounds like there ARE monitors, just that they've been largely redundant as they're trying to stick to that high threshold.

 

[Houston_Blade]

As I said in another thread, the difficult is that Premier League do not use pitch side monitors. Therefore, it is relying on a referee sat 200 miles away to overrule the referee. By having pitch side monitors, the VAR official advises the referee to have another look at it. In our case on Saturday, Lee Mason would have gone to review and then he himself would have decided whether he had missed it or got it wrong and then decide it was a penalty or not. As it stands, the reliance is on another officials saying that the on field official as made a mistake that is unlikely to happen.

With the arrogance of referees it's unlikely that they'll admit to being wrong in either case!

 

[BushBlade]

VAR gave a ridiculous penalty against Liverpool last night
to me its a terrible thing just adds more opinions to every argument
we had a goal rubbed out v southampton player in an offside position distracting the keeper
germany scored here goal given with Werner stood in line of a shot at goal

View attachment 61441



it was supposed to give consistancy of decisions but its doing the opposite
they keep changing the meaning of clear and obvious mistakes to suit
I refereed for 9 years , got on the league line, but footballs no clearer now than when we reffed alone in graves park

It didn’t give a penalty. The ref did. VAR didn’t overrule it. Presumably because whilst it was soft, there was some contact from a poorly executed tackle. So, not enough of an error to overrule. They’re trying to prevent one referee’s subjective view being overruled by another referee’s subjective view.

Because no one wants to see a repeat of the women’s World Cup where the refs referred almost every decision to VAR and spent ages looking at the monitors trying to make their minds up.

The problem is that they keep making it up as they go along and not explaining things properly, and you get biased pundits like McManaman saying ‘it’s not a penalty’ when it’s a ‘seen them given’ and older pundits who don’t keep up with the rules and often don’t know what a foul is in the modern game. They always go back to ‘in my day that wasn’t even a foul, never mind a yellow’. We don’t care, you’re here to analyse the game, not give us a history lesson.

 

[MobileBlade]

I thought there were pitch-side monitors? As per this: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/0/var-premier-league-explained-does-work-decisions-can-changed/

How does this work in practice?

• The VAR speaks to the on-field referee through an earpiece, or vica versa, and the referee will put his hand up to pause play and inform the players a decision is being reviewed.
• VAR reviews the video footage of the incident and advises whether or not action should be taken. If there has been an error, the referee will draw a rectangle with his arms to replicate a TV a screen to change his original decision.
• In the case of more subjective incidents, the VAR will instruct the referee to watch a replay on a pitchside screen. This is known as an on-pitch review.

From the same article however:

However, the Premier League have enforced some of their own criteria with a view to minimising disruption to the flow of the game.

Firstly, referees have been told to avoid on-pitch reviews at the pitch-side screen whenever possible. These types of review are known to cause the longest delays. Instead, on-pitch referees have been told to trust the advice they are given by VAR.

There has also been a pledge from former referee Neil Swarbrick, the man leading VAR's implementation in the Premier League, to stick to a 'higher threshold' for reviewing decisions and only intervene in the case of 'clear and obvious' errors (does not apply to offsides, remember).

So it sounds like there ARE monitors, just that they've been largely redundant as they're trying to stick to that high threshold.

It is one of the reasons why they had a meeting last week in London about VAR. Premier League referees have been told not to refer to pitch side monitors reasoning they are trying to keep delays in play to a minimum (due to supporter criticism from the FA Cup trials last season).

 

[stringer]

As far as I know that in PL matches, VAR hasn't given any penalties apart from Punk Blade 's cheeky answer

He's quite right in his earlier post, 'it hasn’t happened yet’ is quite different to ‘it isn’t allowed’

 

[Wooden House]

According to the Premier League VAR wording;

Penalties
"The most subjective and potentially problematic area. Penalties can be awarded or rescinded using VAR if there has been a 'clear and obvious error' in the original decision".

So according to that the VAR official could have given us a penalty on Saturday? Which is why it was referred to VAR.

 

[Willie Carlin]

Referees have my sympathy. The players are taught to cheat. Chris Wilder said as much in his Southampton post match interview. Why isn’t VAR pulling players up for grabbing hold of opposition players in the area. Still happens in all games.

 

[Silent Blade]

He's quite right in his earlier post, 'it hasn’t happened yet’ is quite different to ‘it isn’t allowed’

Ok, lets see what's happens for the rest of the season. Think it is best that we follow the CL VAR review system

 

[Silent Blade]

According to the Premier League VAR wording;

Penalties
"The most subjective and potentially problematic area. Penalties can be awarded or rescinded using VAR if there has been a 'clear and obvious error' in the original decision".

So according to that the VAR official could have given us a penalty on Saturday? Which is why it was referred to VAR.

The handball last Saturday was clear and obvious. Ward-Prowse stuck his hand out more than the Valencia player did last night

 

[FallowfieldBlade]

The handball last Saturday was clear and obvious. Ward-Prowse stuck his hand out more than the Valencia player did last night

There using this bull shit excuse of this imaginary "threshold" to overturn a decision , they should use it like in the world cup last year it worked perfectly.

 

[Silent Blade]

You won’t have. VAR can give penalties, it’s one of the points of its very existence

I have no recollection of there being any suggestion on MOTD that potential missed penalties can’t be given with VAR assistance.

Why would you trust MOTD and discussion on here over the PL website? Why did VAR review the Ward-Prowse handball if there was no possibility of changing the on-field decision?

Burnley should have had a penalty against Norwich on Saturday also Villa should have had a penalty v Arsenal. In the PL this season so far, VAR still have not made the ref revert his decision to a penalty. VAR reviews are different in the CL as VAR made the ref change his mind and awarded a penalty against Valencia for handball

 

[nicksufc]

Different people have completely different perceptions as to what a 'clear and obvious error' actually is, though. Which is why VAR will never, ever work no matter how much you try and shoehorn it into the game. It is ruining the Premier League and the powers that be are far too stubborn to admit it is a complete disaster, just as it has been in every single league it has been introduced into.