Prem clubs paying Living Wage

[Tom Bott]

The living wage, as you describe it, isn't bollocks to those who have to exist on very little.

Try living on carers allowance/attendance allowance.

Living wage>minimum wage>Carers income ?

 

[itsinyerblood]

Try living on carers allowance/attendance allowance.

Living wage>minimum wage>Carers income ?

Excellent point Tom. Carers are one the unsung sections that rarely get noticed in the media. Of course they should be considered as 'angels', but it seems that once you've attained the status of 'invisible' it's difficult to shift unless Journalists and MPS are fighting your corner. there's also a sbtext to this, the children of single parents who have physical injuries that prevent them from leading normal lives. the kids, who are at school, are then expected to not simply do their homework but also act as cooks, cleaners, even taking care of their parents toilet needs. Now if that's not sad and tragic I don't know what is?

 

[snootyfenooty]

The catering staff on matchday certainly won't be on the living wage or anywhere near it but then conveniently United will tell you they're not employed by the club, much in the same way the cleaners at the multi-zillion finance companies in London aren't employed directly by them either.

But then again I wouldn't pay that rabble serving food at the Lane anything at all until they learned how to master the art of serving a sausage roll.

 

[Linz]

The catering staff on matchday certainly won't be on the living wage or anywhere near it but then conveniently United will tell you they're not employed by the club...

If it’s still the same, they’re employed by these:

Compass Group UK&I | Market Leading Catering & Support Services

We’re the experts delivering catering, facilities management, cleaning & support services that put a spring in your step every day.

www.compass-group.co.uk

 

[LoughboroBlade]

Yeah, my point is that just because an organisation hasn’t sought the accreditation, it doesn’t mean they aren’t actually paying the living wage.

Though it would be a bit unusual for them not to shout about it in a very easy way if they were doing so. I think it’s likely silence on it equals not paying it to all its workforce.

A friend of mine that worked for Spurs said to me today that Spurs will never go for it because they don’t have an attitude of treating their staff particularly well. I think it’s ridiculous that Luton can do this and yet the vast majority of Premier League clubs don’t. It’s particularly embarrassing for a club like ourselves that will stress the working class routes of the club. We might have had an excuse (albeit a poor one) while being a loss-making EFL club. There’s no excuse for a PL club with the money around.

 

[Linz]

Though it would be a bit unusual for them not to shout about it in a very easy way if they were doing so. I think it’s likely silence on it equals not paying it to all its workforce.

Having worked for organisations that have gone for Investors in People and Athena Swan accreditation, I can see why perhaps they can’t be faffed if there’s loads of hoops to jump through and the office staff are busy enough already.

Not saying that the clubs not listed will be paying the NLW... just it seemed a cheap shot to demonise all non-accredited clubs taken at face value, without actually looking into the wages they pay.

 

[Worksop II]

There was a time under McCabe when Bettis was below the minimum Wage .........

 

[MobileBlade]

If it’s still the same, they’re employed by these:

Compass Group UK&I | Market Leading Catering & Support Services

We’re the experts delivering catering, facilities management, cleaning & support services that put a spring in your step every day.

www.compass-group.co.uk

Under the foundation guidelines not only do the company have to pay the wage but also suppliers where work is outsourced. It may be why the two you mention are not on the accredited list.

United were actually asked about this shortly after we were promoted. The response was it was something they would look at but at that time they had too many pressing matters ahead of the season to deal with.

 

[Tom Bott]

There’s no excuse for a PL club with the money around.

Though if we were to be relegated, would the supporters be happy for our players to be sold in order to maintain living wage payments.

 

[LoughboroBlade]

Having worked for organisations that have gone for Investors in People and Athena Swan accreditation, I can see why perhaps they can’t be faffed if there’s loads of hoops to jump through and the office staff are busy enough already.

I can’t speak for your experience but having worked for similar, my experience with the latter is that it’s not particularly taxing. Or more, not an issue if people care enough about it ensure adequate resource. If big clubs like Liverpool can do it, and small clubs like Luton can do it, it should be fairly reasonable to expect us to be able to do it easily enough.

 

[Eskimo]

Though if we were to be relegated, would the supporters be happy for our players to be sold in order to maintain living wage payments.

Yes

 

[LoughboroBlade]

Though if we were to be relegated, would the supporters be happy for our players to be sold in order to maintain living wage payments.

I thought we should have done this before now, and before the Premier League cash made it even more inexcusable. We’re talking about what probably isn’t a considerable amount relatively speaking for the club on its overall budget, but does make a difference to the individual. It’s also the right thing to do.

 

[originaltrueblade]

Once a premier club agreed to pay the Foundation Living Wage they would have to maintain this in the future even if relegated. Then if relegation happened this could leave some clubs struggling and they would cut the workforce as this is how things are. So the workforce would be cutting off their nose to spite their face.

There is a way round this and could be written into any contact that while any club is in the premier league they agree to match the Foundation Living Wage but not sign up for it. By agreeing this whilst in the Premier League the FLW would be matched or could even be bettered if agreed. Then if relegated the wages would revert back to where they were before the matching of the FLW had been implemented.
This way while in the Premier League all staff are rewarded and if relegation did happen job loses would be kept to an absolute minimum.

I recently negotiated a similar with a National Company and at present if the company out performed as it is doing all staff have had their hourly rate increased by 18.5% should the company performance dip below the required agreed level the 18.5% would be removed but without any job losses. I also had the clause inserted that should performance of the company rise to a certain level the 18.5% increase on basic (which is pensionable) would be reinstated. In the future the 18.5% could even be higher if performance of the company went even higher.
So yes the clubs could do the FLW but they could do it by matching the FLW as stated.

 

[originaltrueblade]

There is a difference between the living wage which I think is around £10 per hour and the minimum wage which is around £7 plus an hour less if you are under 25. The point is the four clubs mentioned at the top are paying the living wage while the rest of the league are paying the lesser statutory minimum wage so the four clubs mentioned are more progressive. It's a question for society rather than football. Some might prefer to work at their local football club than in a bar or hotel say for a slightly lower wage. But all clubs especially in the PL should be paying the living wage.

FLW is £9

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

I thought United had already done the trick of binning off outsourcing the lowest wage members of staff - stewards, catering staff - so it might just be that they haven’t thought so seek the accreditation.

They should ensure any vendor or sub-contractors meet the same standards for anyone working on our account. Again if so, it’s an unnecessarily poor move from the club although I suspect it predates our promotion so that puts it in a different light.
Now however they should be insisting on it.

 

[Tom Bott]

It’s also the right thing to do

As is rebuilding the stadium and not languishing in the 3rd division for 6 years.

 

[MobileBlade]

FLW is £9

FLW is £9 outside of London, £10.55 inside the M25.
National Living Wage (for over 25) is currently £8.21.

National Living Wage is rapidly catching the FLW up.

The issue for United is they have a lot of Under 25s working on the NLW for that age group. 21 to 25 is £7.70, 18 to 20 is £6.15.

The FLW does not differentiate between ages so it is not a simple 10% increase. £8.21 is circa £16K a year for a full time employee, £9 is a tadge over £17.5K.

 

[originaltrueblade]

FLW is £9 outside of London, £10.55 inside the M25.
National Living Wage (for over 25) is currently £8.21.

National Living Wage is rapidly catching the FLW up.

The issue for United is they have a lot of Under 25s working on the NLW for that age group. 21 to 25 is £7.70, 18 to 20 is £6.15.

The FLW does not differentiate between ages so it is not a simple 10% increase. £8.21 is circa £16K a year for a full time employee, £9 is a tadge over £17.5K.

It is not simple but it’s down to negotiations and making sure all the small print covers ever eventuality. You can cover all members of staff it’s what you agree is in the contact

 

[LoughboroBlade]

As is rebuilding the stadium and not languishing in the 3rd division for 6 years.

I’ve been banging on about needing a new Kop for years – and not the basic bolt-on, but the more expensive full rebuild. But I actually think paying people a basic living wage is more important a priority to sort first, particularly at this current point in time. It’s also something that could be done very quickly.

 

[MobileBlade]

It is not simple but it’s down to negotiations and making sure all the small print covers ever eventuality. You can cover all members of staff it’s what you agree is in the contact

Whilst salary forms part of your contract of employment, unless you are in a collective bargaining position, it is individual to the employee. I doubt any company will write into their contracts of employment that they will agree to pay the foundation living wage - it will cover the issue of relegation as mentioned earlier. They will issue individual letters to all employees on an annual basis stating a new wage (they have to as they are changing the terms of the T&Cs).

 

[originaltrueblade]

Whilst salary forms part of your contract of employment, unless you are in a collective bargaining position, it is individual to the employee. I doubt any company will write into their contracts of employment that they will agree to pay the foundation living wage - it will cover the issue of relegation as mentioned earlier. They will issue individual letters to all employees on an annual basis stating a new wage (they have to as they are changing the terms of the T&Cs).

It doesn’t have to collective bargaining I’ve negotiated for individuals as I have stated before anything can be agreed depends how committed you are. Oh and contracts cannot be changed with agreement

 

[MobileBlade]

It doesn’t have to collective bargaining I’ve negotiated for individuals as I have stated before anything can be agreed depends how committed you are. Oh and contracts cannot be changed with agreement

Presume the company had some employee representative system in place - has no legal standing though although if you ever go to tribunal it does stand the company in better light that they can say they have employee representatives.

Will add though, contracts of employment are individual and they are given individually including pay changes unless you have a collective bargaining agreement in place.

 

[MobileBlade]

It doesn’t have to collective bargaining I’ve negotiated for individuals as I have stated before anything can be agreed depends how committed you are. Oh and contracts cannot be changed with agreement

Just separately on the second points, contracts can be changed by the employer, what they cannot do is change your contract to put you in a detrimentally worse position without your agreement. Invariably, COE's will state about annual wage rises being looked at but not guaranteed etc. What you cannot do is lower an employees wage without the agreement of the employee. This would be a fundamental breach. However, you can change to make the terms better, for example, giving an extra days holiday, without the employee consent. The employee could still object to this change but is unlikely to, and if they did they would still need to show how the change has fundamentally been detrimental to them.

 

[originaltrueblade]

Just separately on the second points, contracts can be changed by the employer, what they cannot do is change your contract to put you in a detrimentally worse position without your agreement. Invariably, COE's will state about annual wage rises being looked at but not guaranteed etc. What you cannot do is lower an employees wage without the agreement of the employee. This would be a fundamental breach. However, you can change to make the terms better, for example, giving an extra days holiday, without the employee consent. The employee could still object to this change but is unlikely to, and if they did they would still need to show how the change has fundamentally been detrimental to them.

No contract can be changed without agreement. If the employer changes a contract without agreement this is indeed a breach of contract if detrimental or not detrimental and it could end up that the employer goes ahead and changes it without agreement therefore the employee then has the choice of accepting the breach or taking action through his or her trade union or representative. If agreement cannot be reached the employee can call on ACAS to mediate through his her own representation or via a trade union If this is still unresolved there is the route of the Employment Tribunal but all avenues have to be exhausted and he or she would need the signed certificate from ACAS.
The employer can only change a contract without agreement if there is a flexibility clause in the existing contract as per the ACAS guidelines.
Employee initial first cause of action if not happy is to start all the above process off by raising a Grievance

 

[MobileBlade]

No contract can be changed without agreement. If the employer changes a contract without agreement this is indeed a breach of contract if detrimental or not detrimental and it could end up that the employer goes ahead and changes it without agreement therefore the employee then has the choice of accepting the breach or taking action through his or her trade union or representative. If agreement cannot be reached the employee can call on ACAS to mediate through his her own representation or via a trade union If this is still unresolved there is the route of the Employment Tribunal but all avenues have to be exhausted and he or she would need the signed certificate from ACAS.
The emoter can only change a contract without agreement if there is a flexibility clause in the existing contract as per the ACAS guidelines

Think you are talking to the wrong person about this. You are correct that they cannot unilaterally change the contract but read back what I said. If the terms are being improved, and they inform you of the changes you can still object to the changes but in reality you are not going to. Although having said that I have seen actually where payrises have been objected to (because it would affect benefit claims).

If the terms are detrimental then they should consult. Failure to consult may be regarded as unfair depending on the circumstances. I think you are getting law mixed up with process.

 

[originaltrueblade]

Think you are talking to the wrong person about this. You are correct that they cannot unilaterally change the contract but read back what I said. If the terms are being improved, and they inform you of the changes you can still object to the changes but in reality you are not going to. Although having said that I have seen actually where payrises have been objected to (because it would affect benefit claims).

If the terms are detrimental then they should consult. Failure to consult may be regarded as unfair depending on the circumstances. I think you are getting law mixed up with process.

Don’t think so

 

[MobileBlade]

Don’t think so

Let me give you an example. Flowers v East of England Ambulance Trust. Court of Appeal rules that for holiday payments both voluntary and involuntary overtime calculations but be included when paying holiday pay. A person could have a term in their contract of employment explaining how holiday pay is calculated. This CoA decision may render that clause an unfair term. Therefore, the employer is obliged to change the term without consultation. The employer should write to the employee advising of this change of term. No consultation is required.

 

[bypassblade]

I doubt there’s a single member of staff at United earning below this “living wage” bollocks

Irrespective of what league United are in they and all clubs should pay the "living wage" this is the 21st century not 1897, all employers should be but are flouting it, no wonder so many rely on "food banks". In the case of PL clubs it is uber disgusting they can pay some ponce with a man bun 300k a week, but poor old Doris that cleans the shitters is on 3/6d an hour.

 

[8lade]

It gives me faith in humanity that we can discuss and get angry about this being an issue (on a forum not even devoted to such things, is the icing).

 

[originaltrueblade]

Let me give you an example. Flowers v East of England Ambulance Trust. Court of Appeal rules that for holiday payments both voluntary and involuntary overtime calculations but be included when paying holiday pay. A person could have a term in their contract of employment explaining how holiday pay is calculated. This CoA decision may render that clause an unfair term. Therefore, the employer is obliged to change the term without consultation. The employer should write to the employee advising of this change of term. No consultation is required.

I could give loads of examples but seeing as we are singing from the same song sheet I think we have done this to death mobileBlade