Cotterill about Blackwell

[Fiery Blade]

He can indeed do both.

I just find it a bit of a lack of respect for his former club and teammates and towards his new club and teammates to focus on making sure that he repeatedly gets his point across in the press.

Why not just say he's delighted with the opportunity and looking forward to working hard to cement his place in the first team?

Because human nature dictates that you will try to explain why you were not automatic choice for your last club despite playing regular international football.
If he genuinely feels hard done by why shouldn't he say so!

 

[Revolution]

I just find it a bit of a lack of respect for his former club and teammates and towards his new club and teammates to focus on making sure that he repeatedly gets his point across in the press.

If I was treated like Cotterill has been treated this season, I wouldn't have any respect for the manager or the club either.

Why not just say he's delighted with the opportunity and looking forward to working hard to cement his place in the first team?

the last thing we need is more plain vanilla crap like this. I for one welcome a player who speaks his mind on occasion.

And this isn't disrespectful, it's bang on the money:

"I had a good run at the back end of last season when I played 15 or 16 games. I produced some of the best football of my career and we got to the play off final.

"This season was different. I was starting once in a blue moon and it's difficult to find any form when you're in that situation.

"I needed a decent run of games but the manager was judging me on one game. Other players would have two or three bad games yet were still getting picked. I was playing with zero confidence because I felt I was going to be dragged off if I made one mistake.

I don't see anything to disagree with here.

 

[Ollessendro]

Which I assume is exactly why he's filled the position with Jamie Ward.



Good player, will be a big loss (when on form), but it'd be ludicrous to pay him what he's wanting. Despite his composure, he's also one of the biggest culprits for punting the ball aimlessly down field.

Touche about Ward. He has been a revelation and one of Blackwells few good signings. However he is a striker! He is fantastic, particularly when playing 4-5-1 (/4-3-3) like we did on Saturday. However it brings into question balance. With the likes of Quinn, Ward, Creswell etc playing outwide it means we have no width. I see this as being a big problem. These players have a tendecy to come inside and hence we lose that attacking option down the wing.

My point about Kilgallon going is that it is another footballer going. He was one of our best players on the pitch on Saturday and is a real class act. Yes I think he is a bit of a tosser and yes I think we should sell him now. However, if we were pushing for automatic promotion (which we should be) I would pay him waht he wants as I think it would be good investment.

 

[Foxy]

I believe it to be a lack of respect how Blackwell was with him.

and how was Blackwell with him? other than not playing him as much as he would have liked?

Yes he had a go at him from the touchline and it wasn't all deserved, but he has a go at everyone, managers do that.

Where is the lack of respect in signing a player, playing a player then selling a player?

Because human nature dictates that you will try to explain why you were not automatic choice for your last club despite playing regular international football.
If he genuinely feels hard done by why shouldn't he say so!

Fair enough, but why continue to do so across 3/4 articles? why add the level of detail, implying that he's better than whoever else was playing?

If Blackwell thought he wasn't good enough or that we should sell him, why shouldn't he?

Most players just say they are in need of first team football and will do their best to cement their place in their new team.

 

[Ollessendro]

Which I assume is exactly why he's filled the position with Jamie Ward.



Good player, will be a big loss (when on form), but it'd be ludicrous to pay him what he's wanting. Despite his composure, he's also one of the biggest culprits for punting the ball aimlessly down field.

Touche about Ward. He has been a revelation and one of Blackwells few good signings. However he is a striker! He is fantastic, particularly when playing 4-5-1 (/4-3-3) like we did on Saturday. However it brings into question balance. With the likes of Quinn, Ward, Creswell etc playing outwide it means we have no width. I see this as being a big problem. These players have a tendecy to come inside and hence we lose that attacking option down the wing.

My point about Kilgallon going is that it is another footballer going. He was one of our best players on the pitch on Saturday and is a real class act. Yes I think he is a bit of a tosser and yes I think we should sell him now. However, if we were pushing for automatic promotion (which we should be) I would pay him waht he wants as I think it would be good investment.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

Interestingly, the three players you name there are all full internationals and have played at the highest level. Maybe its more a case of he just hasnt got the first idea how to man-manage a player of that calibre? Youre not telling me Hendrie isnt a better footballer than Monty, Carney better than Quinn (who himself has gone backwards since KB took over), Cotterill a better RWer than Ward?
The problem we have at the club is so easy to see, its a shame McCabe cant. Previously successful-on-a-budget manager who played hoofball, Bassett and Warnock, largely relied on a mix of old cloggers they'd known throughout their long, budget-managing careers and bargain buy youngsters. KB doesnt have that managerial background, so apart from filling us up with Watford players, a lot of whom have been hit and miss and a great signing in Ward, I personally dont have the faith in him to get it right here, using that kind of balance, especially given that Naughton who played 2/3 of a season and Walker, who played a handful of games, were flogged off without a second thought.

It was a quote along almost exactly these lines that came via a friend of a very highly thought of player that tipped me over the edge before the game
at Scunthorpe. Normally I'd be looking for positives in the run of results that followed, but that insight made me look more closely at the way the players went about their business at Blackpool and in subsequent games.

No doubt about it in my mind - the players and the rest of the game do not hold him in high enough regard. I've nothing against him personally, and I'm sure that we've had worse tyrants and bullies down the years, but I cannot see him getting the most out of a squad of decent players.

 

[Revolution]

Where is the lack of respect in signing a player, playing a player then selling a player?

It looks like Cotterill's complaint is that we were not playing him, which he found odd given his key role in our resurgence in the second half of last season. I'm not surprised.

 

[Robbie]

and how was Blackwell with him?

Publicly blasting his performances is just one thing that springs to mind.

 

[Foxy]

Touche about Ward. He has been a revelation and one of Blackwells few good signings. However he is a striker! He is fantastic, particularly when playing 4-5-1 (/4-3-3) like we did on Saturday. However it brings into question balance.

He's spent a lot of time playing on the wings though, not just with United. He really is effective and in my opinion gets to the byline/crosses just as much/if not more than Cotts was doing this season. His corners also look more dangerous than the majority have been this year.

If we can keep him doing it, and also mixing things up, then I see no problem with him staying there long term.

With the likes of Quinn, Ward, Creswell etc playing outwide it means we have no width. I see this as being a big problem. These players have a tendecy to come inside and hence we lose that attacking option down the wing.

I think the problem is, we haven't got a regular for the left hand side. If we did, then I think the team would look more balanced. I'd have loved to have seen Treacy make the position his own, but it looks like we'll be without him soon and on the lookout for another left sided midfielder.

I think the best chance we've got right now is possibly Kyel Reid. If he can perform to his potential, then I think we'd be very exciting going forward.

We'd need the defence to be disciplined, but I'd love to see how this midfield would fare at home:

Ward Williamson Monty Reid

With Willo pushing on, Monty protecting the back 4 and picking up the pieces.

Away from home (if we are 4-5-1)

Ward Williamson Monty Harper Reid

However, if we were pushing for automatic promotion (which we should be) I would pay him waht he wants as I think it would be good investment.

Unless he compromises on what he wants, then I wouldn't pay him it if were were currently sat in the top two, never mind where we are right now.
He is a great player when on form, and just the type we need, but sadly he has bigger ideas in terms of what wages and bonuses he feels he should be on which simply don't fit anywhere near what we can afford to pay/risk.

 

[puppet]

I think the best chance we've got right now is possibly Kyel Reid. If he can perform to his potential, then I think we'd be very exciting going forward.

what potential is this, he's never really looked that good whenever i've seen his odd cameo, hardly a promotion-banking signing really is he?

 

[Foxy]

what potential is this, he's never really looked that good whenever i've seen his odd cameo, hardly a promotion-banking signing really is he?

The potential he's looked like he's got previous to his cameo roles in the first team. In the England youth teams and the promising stuff he showed pre-season (yes, I know it was pre-season and against different opposition, but ball control, pace and crossing ability doesn't magically completely deteriorate because you play a championship team).

I just think it would be a more balanced midfield, offering us electric pace on both wings. Not saying it would work, but I'd just like to see it tried.

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

He's spent a lot of time playing on the wings though, not just with United.

I'm sure he mentioned in a recent interview that he started off as a winger / midfielder and only moved up front centrally when he went to Chesterfield.

 

[Ollessendro]

I agree with most of your sentiments Foxy, but what exactly are you trying to say?

- are you apathetic that Coterill has left?
- are you happy with Blackwell's transfer dealings?
- are you just arguing to play devils advocate??

In response to both Puppet and Foxy ..... Personally I think that Reid should start the next game on the left. He looked lively for the 5 minutes he was on and was really up for it. His sheer determination lead to Henderson scoring. That's enough to warrant a start for me. There is one thing for certain and that is that he couldn't possibly be worse than the hapless Stephen Quinn. I'd sooner see Stewart given another chance wide left (played well on Saturday when he came on), Reid or Treacy infront of Quinn. In fact I'd sooner see that guy who fell down the stairs at half time play instead of Quinn!?

 

[Revolution]

I think the best chance we've got right now is possibly Kyel Reid. If he can perform to his potential, then I think we'd be very exciting going forward.

You may be right, but:

1. He plays even less than Cotterill, and there's no reason to believe that will change; and

2. He's an unknown quantity - as you say, he has potential - whereas we have seen Cotterill be very effective. So we have sold a proven player who has done the business for us as recently as last spring (at a loss) and our only hope for width is someone who has no sort of track record at all for us.

My guess is that Reid will not get much of a look in this season.

And I don't understand why you can be so keen to see Reid and yet so defensive about the departure of Cotterill, who by any measure has shown himself to be a better player at present.

 

[Foxy]

- are you apathetic that Coterill has left?

To be honest, I'm apathetic at the moment.

In terms of squad numbers and if the rumoured fee is correct, then I'm slightly disappointed. I'd also like to think, we are preparing for more incoming in January.

I really fail to see the support that Cotts has built up in comparison to other members of the squad. There are players who have consistently performed better than him, put more effort in than him and yet get slagged off constantly.

He's been inconsistent, that much is clear to everyone, the reasoning behind this can be debated all week... but it's there.

People might be of the opinion that any failing Cotterill has, is solely the managers fault, and fair enough, that's their opinion.

I happen to think its a combination of a number of things and it annoys me that people will absolve the player being at fault for anything negative.

I see potential in him and I like the way he plays when on form, sadly, I'm not 100% convinced he'll ever meet his potential.

If we weren't going to play him, I think it's better he was off.

For bullys special prize... can anyone guess who this was? the last time he made a move?

"My time at Wigan was very difficult and pretty frustrating at times – a bit of a learning curve for me.

"I didn't play in many games and I wasn't involved as much as I would have liked.

"It's fair to say that it wasn't a good time in my career. I hoped for big things over there and that wasn't how it worked out.

"Luckily for me, I've managed to move on to a big club".

"I don't think there's any doubt that Sheffield United are a bigger club than Wigan. I know one's in the Premiership and the other is in the Championship, but there's more to it than that.

Seems slightly similar to the current situation wouldn't you say?

Isn't it at this stage that the player should be wondering if there is anything he's failing to do that mean his previous two club managers decided not to select him as much as he thought he should be?

- are you happy with Blackwell's transfer dealings?

Some yes, some no. I don't think it's possible to be firmly on one side or the other on this one.

Of the more recent ones....

I thought the signing of Jamie Ward was a good one and handled in the right way.

Kyel Reid I thought was worth a punt and by the end of pre-season I thought he'd be our best signing of the summer.

Ched Evans depends on the actual fee we end up paying, I actually think (if what has been said about the structure of the deal is correct) that we got a good price on Ched, considering his supposed potential. He'll need more time, might never come good, but I think what we'd bought into is a raw talent that could go either way.

Andy Taylor again is a half decent signing in my opinion. He looks a little slow at times, but I think he's had a lot of unfair criticism this season. He's only a young lad and with the help of people like Gary Naysmith could develop well. He was also fairly important, given the injury problems we've had in his position.

Ryan France I wouldn't have signed, but I don't think he's as bad as some have made out. He's mainly to make up numbers and isn't someone I'd expect to be around for long.

Glen Little - It's a pity we couldn't do something a few years earlier on this one. He's been a good player over the years and has certainly caused us plenty of problems. His legs are going, so its hard to use him as an out and out winger. I think he adds something we lack and will certainly have his uses (if he can stay fit enough). He's also a good character to have in the dressing room and is a talker.

Jordan Stewart - Again, like France, I think he's a bit of a squad filler, but does have some encouraging attributes. I think he needs to play in an advanced position, as defensively he worries me. I think on this one, he was thinking more on the bodies side and offloading the wages of Lee Hendrie.

Mark Bunn - We clearly needed a keeper following Paddys issues and I actually quite like Bunn, I think he's another thats been criticised more than he deserves. I think that nurtured in the right way, he will be a good keeper, but he's a bit young and naive at the moment. Benno apparently echo's my views on him... which leads me to....

Carl Ikeme - A little early, but I was confident in him on Saturday and I thought he had a good game. I'm pleased that Blackwell has identified that its still a problem area and has the balls to drop his previous choice.

Of the others, I was also quite impressed with the signings of Henderson and Williamson.

So in summary, I'd say I'd weigh in as slightly to the "happy with his dealings" side. There are a number of players I wouldn't have signed, but also a few that I'm impressed with. That's also taking into consideration the constraints which have been placed on him.

- are you just arguing to play devils advocate??

Whilst I admit to having done this occasionally in an effort to spark debate, normally I'm just putting across my opinion.

On Cotterill, its entirely my opinion and I'm struggling to understand the groundswell towards him to be honest


Does that help?

 

[Micalijo]

Fantastic post Foxy. Fair play.

If I went into detail about how much I disagree with vast majority of what you have said in this thread I'd be here all day, so to keep things brief:

Bunn will never, ever be good enough for a side hoping to challenge at the top of the CCC. There had to be better options.
Reidy has some attributes but if Cotterill doesn't get in no way will Reid.
France is incredibly bad - horrifically bad and it pains ne to watch him play for us.
Calling Taylor a little slow is a sign that you must be a very kind and humane individual. One of the most pointless signings ever and he has no potential to improve in my opinion. A nothing signing. either spend big for a proper CCC full back or use a loan up for 6 months until Naysmith is back.
Cotterill - yes I am of the opinion that a manager who signs him for £1.5m then treats him like a sack of shite deserves alot of criticism and great to hear Cotterill getting stuck in. He isn't a world beater but that isn't the point - the point is Blackwell seems very adept at stifling most of any talent we have in the squad - and Cotterill was talented. If he was consistent he'd be playing in the Prem imo.

 

[Foxy]

If he was consistent he'd be playing in the Prem imo.

If he was consistent, we'd probably be playing in the Prem and he'd still be with us, starting every week

 

[Fiery Blade]

Overall, Blackwell is slightly better in the transfer market than he is at tactics and man management.
France, Taylor, Howard, - not good enough
Reid will not get his chance if Cotterill didn't
Henderson -OK Im not getting carried away with Sat just yet!
Bunn, Davies, Cresswell -Not Good enough
Harper, Ikeme, Treacey - Jury still Out
Ward - Great Buy
Walker -Shouldn't have sold him in the first place
Little- Signed five years too late!
So the above explains the level of quality Blackwell has in tactics and Man Management -Bugger All!

 

[Ollessendro]

Does that help?

Yes that helps a lot. I don't have time to respond to eveything that you put. I'm siding more along the lines of Fiery and Micalijo in terms of Blackwell's signings (although I'm probably not quite as cynical).

 

[Foxy]

Time to trot out some more devils advocate....

Lets just pick two players... say Bunn and Taylor, who are "not good enough".

Now...

Mark Bunn has played 14 (+1 sub) times for us.

Andy Taylor has played 12 (+1 sub) times for us.

Both are "clearly not good enough"?

David Cotterill played 35 (+19 sub) times for us, yet "wasn't given a chance" and has been ruined by "poor man management" (from the same manager currently managing the two examples above).

How does this work?

 

[Ollessendro]

Mark Bunn has played 14 (+1 sub) times for us.

Is this the Mark Bunn who kept a clean sheet and saved a penalty only to be dropped the week after?

How dare we question Kevin Blackwell's man management skills?!

 

[Foxy]

Is this the Mark Bunn who kept a clean sheet and saved a penalty only to be dropped the week after?

How dare we question Kevin Blackwell's man management skills?!

Kept a clean sheet and saved a penalty? surely not? are we talking about the same player? I'd heard he was useless

Interesting point on the man management and I did feel sorry for the lad, he did say though that he thought he would be a better person and a better player for the experience of being dropped from the team, as it's something he'd "never had" before - I'm sure that isn't entirely the case

I'm not saying he's a good man manager, I'm just confused as to why its an excuse for Cotts not to perform, but others are cast aside as not good enough?

 

[Ollessendro]

Kept a clean sheet and saved a penalty? surely not? are we talking about the same player? I'd heard he was useless

Interesting point on the man management and I did feel sorry for the lad, he did say though that he thought he would be a better person and a better player for the experience of being dropped from the team, as it's something he'd "never had" before - I'm sure that isn't entirely the case

I'm not saying he's a good man manager, I'm just confused as to why its an excuse for Cotts not to perform, but others are cast aside as not good enough?

A simple yes or no would have sufficed

But now as you are back tracking on King Kevins management abilities, tell me more ........

 

[Foxy]

But now as you are back tracking on King Kevins management abilities, tell me more ........

I'm not backtracking on anything, I'm simply asking why, having played less games but also endured the constraints people say Cotterill has, are these deemed not good enough?

Surely they've had even less chance than Cotts?

Why do we use these reasons as a valid excuse for Cotts, but none of the others?

 

[Highbury_Blade]

I'm not backtracking on anything, I'm simply asking why, having played less games but also endured the constraints people say Cotterill has, are these deemed not good enough?

Surely they've had even less chance than Cotts?

Why do we use these reasons as a valid excuse for Cotts, but none of the others?

Well i'm assuming it's because Cotterill showed his undoubted natural ability from the off. We know the heights he can achieve, so we're mystified he's not and now never will be, a regular.

 

[HoodedClaw]

The potential he's looked like he's got previous to his cameo roles in the first team. In the England youth teams and the promising stuff he showed pre-season (yes, I know it was pre-season and against different opposition, but ball control, pace and crossing ability doesn't magically completely deteriorate because you play a championship team).

I just think it would be a more balanced midfield, offering us electric pace on both wings. Not saying it would work, but I'd just like to see it tried.

Maybe they do with Blackwell in charge

Agree with you on the more balanced midfield point.

 

[Autumn]

For me, the fact that Cotterill hasn't flourished at United says it all about us and what we can expect. Sadly, it's not what I want.

It's evident Cotterill is a confidence player yet he's dead right to point out that he was punished for every dip in form, whilst players like Quinn have managed long spells of complete shiteness. Cotterill's regular introduction last season turned us around.

We've sold a winger because he can't defend, and it says it all about our manager and his style, IMHO.

UTB

This is the post that is possibly the most accurate in what I feel. I was involved with the deal that has led us to Dave leaving, and he is not the first to say what he said, he has just said it to the media thats all.
There is a certain protocol with managers, and some have their way of doing things. It is a case of if your face fits with Blackwell, and no matter what fight you put up it's tends to be about what you do and don't do, especially if you are not favoured.

I do believe Cotts never fitted into Blackwells way of thinking, and that is a shame, because the scout reports on some of our players are promising.

An ipswich scout also believes Killa is a better centre back and isn't being used properly, but thats another matter.

I can only give you my opinion on what I've seen and heard. And that is very limited, so don't think I'm in the know!

 

[JohnDenver]

Maybe Blackwell dopped Cotts so often because he knew the damage his confidence would take from our knobhead element jeering him.

If he'd played at the bottom of his form for a prolonged spell the boos would have carried him out the ground on the own...

 

[Blade]

Time to trot out some more devils advocate....

Lets just pick two players... say Bunn and Taylor, who are "not good enough".

Now...

Mark Bunn has played 14 (+1 sub) times for us.

Andy Taylor has played 12 (+1 sub) times for us.

Both are "clearly not good enough"?

David Cotterill played 35 (+19 sub) times for us, yet "wasn't given a chance" and has been ruined by "poor man management" (from the same manager currently managing the two examples above).

How does this work?

To join in the devil's advocate approach perhaps this argument stands firm when you consider Cotterill had been with us since 8th February 2008, since the day he joined we've played 79 league games, so in reality he's been given a start in only around 44% of our league matches.

This is as opposed to Bunn and Taylor - whilst they've been with us we've played 18 games; so in effect Bunn has been given a start in 77.77% of those possible and Taylor (who has also been injured) has been given a start in 66.66% of those possible.

Considering that Cotterill created more assists than any other player in the squad and many of his appearances would have been in isolation rather than a long run of starts I feel your devil's advocate questioning is pointing to there being good reasoning behind why the statement "works".

(although I wouldn't agree Bunn and Taylor are "clearly not good enough").

I find it interesting also to suggest that it's not simply down to how many games he got to start in but that in terms of man management the amount of times he was subbed in his time with us (on a number of occasions after coming on in the same game) along with the fact he was often the first person to come off also play a factor.

As an example if you look at the stats then on average for each game he started he only played 75 minutes. He was only given 12 full 90 minute games in his entire time with us with 8 of those 12 games coming in his first half season with us.

Whilst I can maybe appreciate that attacking wingers are much more likely not to complete a game than a goalkeeper or a full back I would argue as Cotterill quite rightly does that when compared to like for like players such as Quinn or Treacy I'd guarantee you'll find he got a raw deal. As we all know and appreciate Quinn has had a torrid 12 months with small periods of improvement (mainly he seems more comfortable in a 5-4-1 away from home) yet he has remained on the whole in Blackwell's starting 11 each week and more often than not will complete a 90 minute period.

I'm sure we've all had jobs where we know we're working hard (which I think Cotterill was) and where we're delivering results (which he did) whilst others around us who aren't producing are selected for things ahead of us. Far too often Blackwell has used the media to berate Cotterill ahead of other players so I have absolutely no qualms with Cotterill having a dig back now he knows it isn't going to damage his chance of being able to do his job. Let's face it most of those people who can empathise with the above would do the same thing and use the media if given the platform to explain why you may have been asked to turn up to work less than half of the time you're contracted to.

And as has been said, there's a worrying trend being seen in ex players having a dig at Blackwell after they've left.

On the whole I'm still trying to be positive given the slight turnaround in results but as with many I think there's still a lot to be seen before I'm able to get fully behind KB again. I didn't decide it was time to get rid overnight, after 2 bad results or a bad month but after seeing us miss out on a promotion that was there for the taking last year whilst playing some pretty bad football and then take a turn for the worst this year with Bramall Lane fast becoming excuse central. Keep up the recent work Kevin, I'm glad to see us getting results again but I can't and won't just forgive and forget the fact that we could have done and should be doing so much better with what we had and even still have now at the club.



If anyone's interested here's my working outs:

2009-2010 3 starts out of a possible 17 games - average of 77.6 minutes per start. 1 full app without being subbed out of 3

Swansea 90 mins
Ipswich 63 mins
Blackpool 80 mins

2008-2009 17 starts out of a possible 46 games - average of 73.59 minutes per start. 4 full app without being subbed out of 17

Palace 90
Swansea 89
Forest 57
Barnsley 70
Ipswich 67
Cardiff 84
Derby 83
Blackpool 90
Coventry 79
Birmingham 90
Plymouth 90
Norwich 65
Southampton 46
Pigs 29
Bristol 75
Norwich 84
Coventry 63

2007-2008 15 starts out of a possible 16 games - 75.07 minutes per start. 8 full apps without being subbed out of :nono:15

Southampton 38
Bristol 90
Hull 46
Cotterill 89
Pigs 90
Leicester 86
Preston 84
Barnsley 90
Norwich 90
Coventry 89
Plymouth 90
Ipswich 90
Charlton 64
West Brom 90
Scunthorpe 90

 

[sitwell]

Great research and well put. I agree with every word.
I do know 2 players very well who have played for Blackwell ,and I can confirm that he is not a popular person (which wouldn't matter if succesfull) and is a very poor man manager as well as being somewhat of a bully and liar. I reckon 90% of managers have some of these traits but to have them all and unsuccesfull is not great.