Wilder's 3-5-2

[Chali 2na]

Much has been made, especially recently, of Chris Wilder's tactical approach, particularly the overlapping centre halves. I've heard it discussed on both quest and sky over the last few weeks.

While I'm sure the tactic has been used previously in some shape or form by other managers, it seems a fairly unique tactic in England, especially outside the PL where centre halves have a more traditional role.

My question is: if Wilder was given carte blanche to assemble a team from scratch, would he adopt the same tactics?

On the (few) occasions I saw Northampton play under Wilder, he played a 4-2-3-1. In his first competitive match managing United, away at Bolton, he used a fairly standard 4-4-2.
It wasn't until the Gillingham away game, the 6th game of the season, until Wilder adopted 3 at the back.

Wilder seemingly changed from playing the formation he wanted to play, to identifying his better player's best roles and playing them in a system that utilised their strengths.
He's clearly very adaptable, which has probabaly contributed to why he's such a fantastic manger. I just wonder what approach he would take if personnel didn't dictate his formation/tactics.

 

[gavtheblade]

That is correct

 

[Ricky]

I think he'd stick with 3-5-2 now he's seen the benefits of it. He's had more success with it than anything else now.

 

[benn5712]

Any Blade remember Ken Furphy, mid 70's, saying he was looking at ways of getting the centre halves forrerd.
Over to Silent.

 

[SwissBlade]

Much has been made, especially recently, of Chris Wilder's tactical approach, particularly the overlapping centre halves. I've heard it discussed on both quest and sky over the last few weeks.

While I'm sure the tactic has been used previously in some shape or form by other managers, it seems a fairly unique tactic in England, especially outside the PL where centre halves have a more traditional role.

My question is: if Wilder was given carte blanche to assemble a team from scratch, would he adopt the same tactics?

On the (few) occasions I saw Northampton play under Wilder, he played a 4-2-3-1. In his first competitive match managing United, away at Bolton, he used a fairly standard 4-4-2.
It wasn't until the Gillingham away game, the 6th game of the season, until Wilder adopted 3 at the back.

Wilder seemingly changed from playing the formation he wanted to play, to identifying his better player's best roles and playing them in a system that utilised their strengths.
He's clearly very adaptable, which has probabaly contributed to why he's such a fantastic manger. I just wonder what approach he would take if personnel didn't dictate his formation/tactics.

He's also played a back 4 a bit more this season, its not only the manager which is fantastic, he has the players willing and able to adapt

 

[LJBlade]

The only other time I’ve seen a team play 3-5-2 the way we do was when England played Tunisia in France 98. There was a replay of the game on the BBC sport website before the World Cup this year.

England had Southgate attacking down the right and Sol Sampbell attacking down the left. Whether it was because we were playing Tunisia or because that’s the way we played I’m not sure.

To answer your question though, I think Wilder would choose this formation if he could start from scratch. I think he’s been here long enough to have moved away from it if it wasn’t a preferred choice.

Personally I’ve always been an advocate of 3-5-2

 

[Chali 2na]

He's also played a back 4 a bit more this season, its not only the manager which is fantastic, he has the players willing and able to adapt

A very good point.

By switching style/formation he was asking players like Coutts, O'Connell and Basham (and Duffy to an extent) to play in roles that they weren't particularly familiar with - they all deserve massive credit for making it work.

 

[DronnieBlade]

3:4:1:2.

UTB

 

[stringer]

You mean 5-3-2 right Akinbiyi ...

 

[Chali 2na]

The only other time I’ve seen a team play 3-5-2 the way we do was when England played Tunisia in France 98. There was a replay of the game on the BBC sport website before the World Cup this year.

England had Southgate attacking down the right and Sol Sampbell attacking down the left. Whether it was because we were playing Tunisia or because that’s the way we played I’m not sure.

On the topic of England, last summer's World Cup exploits had shades of Wilderball to them.

Guardiola's 4-3-3 also has a tendency to morph into something simalar when Fernandinho drops back too, but with 1 striker, rather than 2.

To answer your question though, I think Wilder would choose this formation if he could start from scratch. I think he’s been here long enough to have moved away from it if it wasn’t a preferred choice.

Personally I’ve always been an advocate of 3-5-2

I think you're right. Although he'd probably need wingers/wide forwards to change anything too drastically and I'm not sure he's ever had the resources to bring enough in of what he needs.

You obviously had a fair bit of foresight then, as I personally remember being entirely unconvinced by the team sheet when he first made the switch - how wrong I was.

 

[LoughboroBlade]

He's also played a back 4 a bit more this season, its not only the manager which is fantastic, he has the players willing and able to adapt

Though on the rare occasions he does go with that it’s usually as a result of a switch midgame. I think you have to go back to those initial L1 games for the last time he started with 4 at the back.

 

[SwissBlade]

A very good point.

By switching style/formation he was asking players like Coutts, O'Connell and Basham (and Duffy to an extent) to play in roles that they weren't particularly familiar with - they all deserve massive credit for making it work.

Egan has also said that its the first time he's played a back 3.

One huge compliment is that a lot of teams line up in their normal way to play us, but then after being steam rolled for 45 mins, they change to counter our style. Or they start by setting up to nullify us. We very rarely allow teams to play their way.

 

[SwissBlade]

Though on the rare occasions he does go with that it’s usually as a result of a switch midgame. I think you have to go back to those initial L1 games for the last time he started with 4 at the back.

Didn't we start against Boro with

Baldock-Cranie-Egan-Stevens

and then the midfield Diamond in front of them

 

[Chali 2na]

Egan has also said that its the first time he's played a back 3

I'm glad no-one figured out how effective he was in the centre of a back 3 as theirs a good chance we'd have paid considerably more for him !

 

[SwissBlade]

I'm glad no-one figured out how effective he was in the centre of a back 3 as theirs a good chance we'd have paid considerably more for him !

According to my Wednesday supporting mate that watches Brentford a lot, we paid far too much for him (this was when we signed him).

He generally accepts that we might've got a bargain now...

 

[Bobby Boo]

Second half against Fulham last season I am sure he only had JOC at the back.

 

[LoughboroBlade]

Didn't we start against Boro with

Baldock-Cranie-Egan-Stevens

and then the midfield Diamond in front of them

I’ve been surprised that a few have said this. That wasn’t the game I was watching – thought it very immediately became clear that we went with Baldock and Dowell as wingbacks with the 3 at the back, though I admit to looking for that as it’s what I predicted when the teamsheet game out. Wilder said as well that Dowell played the whole game at wingback.

 

[Stretch]

Bristol City weren't a million miles away from our system under Cotterill. Granted, not quite as swashbuckling as we are, and the attacking CB element was more focussed on getting Flint forward down central areas, rather than CBs overlapping WBs out wide. Still good to watch but nothing on our lads.

 

[LoughboroBlade]

Anyone remember 2 years ago on here when a few were suggesting we ditched the formation and went back to 4 at the back because we’d “been found out”.

Ah, memories...

 

[SwissBlade]

I’ve been surprised that a few have said this. That wasn’t the game I was watching – thought it very immediately became clear that we went with Baldock and Dowell as wingbacks with the 3 at the back, though I admit to looking for that as it’s what I predicted when the teamsheet game out. Wilder said as well that Dowell played the whole game at wingback.

OK, hadn't seen that, but the live stream i started watching showed the line up as 4-4-2 in a diamond (think it was probably from SKY). However, i have to admit that my internet connection was so bad that the game kept freezing and i turned the stream off after 30 mins. So i can't tell you what we were playing.

From what i saw Dowell was playing mostly on the left side, but it seemed to be of a three of

Duffy-Fleck-Dowell

(ahead of Norwood)

 

[LJBlade]

OK, hadn't seen that, but the live stream i started watching showed the line up as 4-4-2 in a diamond (think it was probably from SKY). However, i have to admit that my internet connection was so bad that the game kept freezing and i turned the stream off after 30 mins. So i can't tell you what we were playing.

From what i saw Dowell was playing mostly on the left side, but it seemed to be of a three of

Duffy-Fleck-Dowell

(ahead of Norwood)

I thought we played 3-5-2 throughout against Boro the other night but I’ve seen other comments suggesting it wasn’t. I think our formation is that fluid that it’s sometimes difficult to tell.

 

[Fulwood Blade]

Much has been made, especially recently, of Chris Wilder's tactical approach, particularly the overlapping centre halves. I've heard it discussed on both quest and sky over the last few weeks.

While I'm sure the tactic has been used previously in some shape or form by other managers, it seems a fairly unique tactic in England, especially outside the PL where centre halves have a more traditional role.

My question is: if Wilder was given carte blanche to assemble a team from scratch, would he adopt the same tactics?

On the (few) occasions I saw Northampton play under Wilder, he played a 4-2-3-1. In his first competitive match managing United, away at Bolton, he used a fairly standard 4-4-2.
It wasn't until the Gillingham away game, the 6th game of the season, until Wilder adopted 3 at the back.

Wilder seemingly changed from playing the formation he wanted to play, to identifying his better player's best roles and playing them in a system that utilised their strengths.
He's clearly very adaptable, which has probabaly contributed to why he's such a fantastic manger. I just wonder what approach he would take if personnel didn't dictate his formation/tactics.

he'll have to change it NEXT season in the prem - we'd get slaughtered with over-lapping centre backs - back to 4.

UTB

 

[Chali 2na]

he'll have to change it NEXT season in the prem - we'd get slaughtered with over-lapping centre backs - back to 4.

UTB

I strongly disagree

 

[Fulwood Blade]

I strongly disagree

you strongly disagree with the prem league - boo hiss

Just think we'd get picked off if we got the RCH & LCH forward like we do in the Championship. Would be willing to give it a go, just think the better coaches would have plans to stop it happening - therefore we'd be forced into something different.

UTB

 

[Kozzy_is_my_Dad]

It helps that we're the most exciting side to watch in the championship. We have a strong identity for thth formation now, so for that reason, I think he'd stick with it.

 

[BushBlade]

OK, hadn't seen that, but the live stream i started watching showed the line up as 4-4-2 in a diamond (think it was probably from SKY). However, i have to admit that my internet connection was so bad that the game kept freezing and i turned the stream off after 30 mins. So i can't tell you what we were playing.

From what i saw Dowell was playing mostly on the left side, but it seemed to be of a three of

Duffy-Fleck-Dowell

(ahead of Norwood)

Sky showed it as 442 diamond but I think they were just guessing and got it wrong. It’s difficult to work out on tv sometimes because they don’t show the full pitch but it looked like 5412 to me, with Dowell as LWB and Stevens at LCB.

It seems him and Knill came up with this to, as Chali says, suit the players we had and get the best out of them but quickly realised that other teams just weren’t used to it and couldn’t cope. I guess it’s not going to be too long before other managers try it and, if they get it right and it becomes more common, we’ll lose that advantage of being unusual.

 

[LoughboroBlade]

5412

Definitely wasn’t that

 

[Fulwood Blade]

Definitely wasn’t that

correct - but doubt that dozy ref would have noticed if it was

UTB

 

[Chali 2na]

Just think we'd get picked off if we got the RCH & LCH forward like we do in the Championship. Would be willing to give it a go, just think the better coaches would have plans to stop it happening - therefore we'd be forced into something different.

We perhaps might be a bit more conservative, especially against the better teams but I find it hard to imagine that we'd change to back 4.

I guess it’s not going to be too long before other managers try it and, if they get it right and it becomes more common, we’ll lose that advantage of being unusual.

I feel our one advantage is that CBs with the footballing ability of O'Connell or Basham aren't too common.

 

[blade67]

Much has been made, especially recently, of Chris Wilder's tactical approach, particularly the overlapping centre halves. I've heard it discussed on both quest and sky over the last few weeks.

While I'm sure the tactic has been used previously in some shape or form by other managers, it seems a fairly unique tactic in England, especially outside the PL where centre halves have a more traditional role.

My question is: if Wilder was given carte blanche to assemble a team from scratch, would he adopt the same tactics?

On the (few) occasions I saw Northampton play under Wilder, he played a 4-2-3-1. In his first competitive match managing United, away at Bolton, he used a fairly standard 4-4-2.
It wasn't until the Gillingham away game, the 6th game of the season, until Wilder adopted 3 at the back.

Wilder seemingly changed from playing the formation he wanted to play, to identifying his better player's best roles and playing them in a system that utilised their strengths.
He's clearly very adaptable, which has probabaly contributed to why he's such a fantastic manger. I just wonder what approach he would take if personnel didn't dictate his formation/tactics.

spot on as to how he got to the system we now use.

I think he'd pretty flexible as he brings in new players and Dowell's role on Wednesday is a glimpse of that