development squad

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

This time last year DCL was an Everton player and Brooks was with him for England winning shit and stuff

I get the sentiment but Dom C-L & David Brooks never played together for an England Youth Team.
Dom was in S Korea scoring the winner in the FIFA Under 20 World Cup. Brooks was in the "B Team" Under 21 Invitation Only Tournament in France.
Very different levels of standard

Dom & Louis Reed did play together for England U20 in warm up games for Korea. But Louis didn't make the final squad. (Harry Chapman did)

 

[snootyfenooty]

But, the simple point is that Academy players must create their own pathway - by their performance. Be good enough, you'll get picked.
That said. Here's me shooting from the hip. The real barrier to Academy Lads getting a chance in most league sides (including SUFC) is Managers signing dross no better than existing first teamers & really no better than Academy Lads. The mantra is Sign Sign Sign Announce Announce Announce. Wilder has a good record of finding gems. But the Carruthers Heneghan Leonard Holmes lot - currently, they're just a drain on resources & a block to the Academy Lads.
Certainly, Academy Lads have to prove themselves capable of first team places. But, don't block 'em off with fellas who'll just sit in the stand.

Bravo. You've managed to say this more clearly in a couple of paragraphs than I've been trying to say all last season. People do get upset, especially on this forum, if you criticise some of Wilder's signings but with a handful of exceptions they have in the main been rubbish. He's not alone in this as you have pointed out but we do have to move away from signing in quantity just for the sake of it and instead targetting fewer players of quality who can make a difference to our performance. Then we have instantly created opportunity and incentive for our youth players to make the step up, initially into the squad and on to the bench, but more importantly being in and around the 1st team players. This can only be beneficial to their development and make it easier to sort the wheat from the chaff. When I've seen the likes of Carruthers, Evans, Holmes and Lavery sitting on the bench game after game I'm thinking what is the fucking point of this.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

In March 2015, Dom had been a sub for the first team, we signed Steven Davies and Dom dropped out of first team contention. Because of his age at that time, he went back to the U18s. He played on a Saturday morning in S6, and scored two in the first 15 minutes. David Brooks had a hand in the second. I think that just illustrates how promising Youngsters can fall down the order as you sign stop gap first teamers. It was on my Blog that day.

http://ball-sup.blogspot.com/2015/03/s6-bandit-country.html

 

[Chali 2na]

People do get upset, especially on this forum, if you criticise some of Wilder's signings but with a handful of exceptions they have in the main been rubbish.

Are you reffering to his whole tenure, or just last January?

 

[snootyfenooty]

Are you reffering to his whole tenure, or just last January?

You're just taking a selective snippet from my post and we'll end up going off at a tangent, this is not what my post and this thread is all about. To continue in the same vein as Phil, myself and others have been discussing, who would you rather see on the bench as an attacking option: Ched Evans or Tyler Smith? To me that is a no brainer.

 

[Chali 2na]

You're just taking a selective snippet from my post and we'll end up going off at a tangent, this is not what my post and this thread is all about. To continue in the same vein as Phil, myself and others have been discussing, who would you rather see on the bench as an attacking option: Ched Evans or Tyler Smith? To me that is a no brainer.

I am, admittedly, but that's because you said something controversial:

[Wilder's signings] have in the main been rubbish

Wilder has the best hit/miss record in the transfer market out of all the managers in my life time - it's been far from rubbish.

He's inevitably signed a couple of duds, and in hindsight, Smith may have been a better option than Evans (despite several posters who watch the youth teams saying he's physically a way off the men's game) but to call Wilder's transfers "rubbish" is idiotic.

 

[snootyfenooty]

I am, admittedly, but that's because you said something controversial:



Wilder has the best hit/miss record in the transfer market out of all the managers in my life time - it's been far from rubbish.

He's inevitably signed a couple of duds, and in hindsight, Smith may have been a better option than Evans (despite several posters who watch the youth teams saying he's physically a way off the men's game) but to call Wilder's transfers "rubbish" is idiotic.

OK, I'll bite:

Hit: JOC, Baldock, Fleck, Clarke, Stearman
Miss: Lavery, Hanson, Lundstram, Carruthers, Henegan, Hussey, Wilson, Holmes, Evans C, Thomas
Jury's out: Evans L, Stevens, Leonard

The one I can't categorise is Duffy, he's one in a million. I don't think anyone can claim to have seen that one coming.

 

[Chali 2na]

OK, I'll bite:

Hit: JOC, Baldock, Fleck, Clarke, Stearman
Miss: Lavery, Hanson, Lundstram, Carruthers, Henegan, Hussey, Wilson, Holmes, Evans C, Thomas
Jury's out: Evans L, Stevens, Leonard

The one I can't categorise is Duffy, he's one in a million. I don't think anyone can claim to have seen that one coming.

Great, now compare that to Warnock, Robson, Blackwell, Wilson or Clough...


PS: I think L Evans is a hit personally and Lundstram certainly isnt a miss.

 

[snootyfenooty]

Great, now compare that to Warnock, Robson, Blackwell, Wilson or Clough...


PS: I think L Evans is a hit personally and Lundstram certainly isnt a miss.

Lundstram is gash.

Robson's transfer record was probably the best of all, it was he who was the problem, not the players. Warnock got us to the premiership with his signings. Blackwell got us to the play-off finals with no money to spend but Robson's signings to play with. Wilson and Clough you can have but dare I mention Coutts. Anyway, they all gave the academy players a chance and we saw Jags, Tonge, Monty, Kyle x2, Harry playing for us at a very young age and this is the main issue in this discussion.

 

[Chali 2na]

Lundstram is gash.

That's your opinion.

Robson's transfer record was probably the best of all, it was he who was the problem, not the players.

You're joking? Robson spent over £8m in the championship, in 2007 - the legacy of which was a major factor in our relegation.

Warnock got us to the premiership with his signings.

And swiftly back down. His method was the definition of throwing shit at the wall, and seeing what will stick.

Sure he made some good signings, but I'd guess his ratio was far worse than Wilder's. Shelton, Akinbiyi and Horsfield all spring to mind.

Blackwell got us to the play-off finals with no money to spend but Robson's signings to play with.

No money to spend?? Did I dream that he bought Darius Henderson for £2m then?

Wilson and Clough you can have but dare I mention Coutts.

Clough signed a million players; he was bound to get one right.

Anyway, they all gave the academy players a chance and we saw Jags, Tonge, Monty, Kyle x2, Harry playing for us at a very young age and this is the main issue in this discussion.

Jagielka and Tonge broke into the side in 2000 - 18 years ago. If you include the other names you mentioned we have been producing youngsters at a rate of 1 every 3 years. Is Wilder ahead of the curve then, considering Brooks' development?

 

[snootyfenooty]

You're joking? Robson spent over £8m in the championship, in 2007 - the legacy of which was a major factor in our relegation.

Incorrect. We made it to the playoff finals with the bulk of these players. Had we made a more inspired appointment than Blackwell, we may well have finished the job.

Is Wilder ahead of the curve then, considering Brooks' development?

Wilder didn't bring Brooks in, Clough did.

Clough signed a million players; he was bound to get one right.

See above. And Freeman to go with Coutts.

 

[Chali 2na]

Incorrect. We made it to the playoff finals with the bulk of these players. Had we made a more inspired appointment than Blackwell, we may well have finished the job.

Does nearly going up via the playoffs justify Robson's £8m+ spend then?

Would you unequivocally say that Robson did a better job in the transfer market than Wilder?

Wilder didn't bring Brooks in, Clough did.

I never said he did. He's an example of an academy graduate who was given his debut by Wilder: so Wilder currently beats that 1 in 3 year ratio.

See above. And Freeman to go with Coutts.

I was joking about only signing one good player, but if you must know, Clough signed 31 players - how many of them were good enough?

 

[stringer]

OK, I'll bite:

Hit: JOC, Baldock, Fleck, Clarke, Stearman
Miss: Lavery, Hanson, Lundstram, Carruthers, Henegan, Hussey, Wilson, Holmes, Evans C, Thomas
Jury's out: Evans L, Stevens, Leonard

The one I can't categorise is Duffy, he's one in a million. I don't think anyone can claim to have seen that one coming.

I’d personally say Duffy’s been a hit and don’t see how he could be anything else. Jake Wright, Lafferty? Moore, Ebanks-Landell, O’Shea to help get out of League One? Blackman? CCV?

And does a player struggling with injuries make them a miss? Was Joe Riley a miss as C Evans apparently is?

 

[snootyfenooty]

I’d personally say Duffy’s been a hit and don’t see how he could be anything else. Jake Wright, Lafferty? Moore, Ebanks-Landell, O’Shea to help get out of League One? Blackman? CCV?

And does a player struggling with injuries make them a miss? Was Joe Riley a miss as C Evans apparently is?

I think you totally misinterpreted my comment re-Duffy. Read it again.

CCV - are you sure? Riley a joke, think James Wallace. Anyway, put the loans to one side as you will have to bring the likes of Wilson in to balance things up.

Other than them, Moore hit, Wright hit for L1.

O'Shea miss

Lafferty meh

 

[stringer]

I think you totally misinterpreted my comment re-Duffy. Read it again.

CCV - are you sure? Riley a joke, think James Wallace. Anyway, put the loans to one side as you will have to bring the likes of Wilson in to balance things up.

Other than them, Moore hit, Wright hit for L1.

O'Shea miss

Lafferty meh

You said you can’t categorise him. As your only options were hit, miss or jury’s out, I wondered why. Not sure why loans shouldn’t be included? I rated O’Shea and it’s a game of opinions, but feel some of your ‘Misses’ are a little harsh

 

[snootyfenooty]

I was joking about only signing one good player, but if you must know, Clough signed 31 players - how many of them were good enough?

No ones saying Clough was any good. You're introducing one of S24SU's famous straw men into the argument. Not only have you managed to take this thread off on a tangent as predicted, you're now taking another tangent off the original one.

 

[snootyfenooty]

You said you can’t categorise him.

As a compliment to the guy you dope!

 

[stringer]

As a compliment to the guy you dope!

A hit, then?

 

[snootyfenooty]

A hit, then?

Doh.

 

[Chali 2na]

No ones saying Clough was any good. You're introducing one of S24SU's famous straw men into the argument

I know they weren't, I wasn't saying he was bad. No straw man here.

You used Coutts as a defence of Clough's transfer record, I merely added balance, and questioned how many of his 31 signings were any good...

Not only have you managed to take this thread off on a tangent as predicted, you're now taking another tangent off the original one.

If you read post #32, you will see that you were the one who initially brought up transfers, and called Wilder's business into question, so any derailment of this thread is a team effort.

All I was trying to do was point out that Wilder has a better record in the transfer market than our other recent managers- a fact you can admit at any time.

 

[stringer]

Doh.

Thought so.

 

[nopigfansintown]

Incorrect. We made it to the playoff finals with the bulk of these players. Had we made a more inspired appointment than Blackwell, we may well have finished the job.



Wilder didn't bring Brooks in, Clough did.



See above. And Freeman to go with Coutts.

Brooks was brought in by the erstwhile head academy recruitment Luke Fedorenko.

 

[stringer]

Brooks was brought in by the erstwhile head academy recruitment Luke Fedorenko.

Luke was dealing with younger players than Brooks when he came in and didn’t have much to do with signing Brooks. Trav Binnion was heavily involved after chief academy scout Howard Dean first spotted him playing for City.

 

[nopigfansintown]

To compare Wilder's record with Robson't is the stuff of Lewis Carroll's fiction. Robson had a much bigger budget in 2007/8, than Chris Wilder had in 2017.Even Blackwell, who apparently had "no money" was able to sign two players for almost three times Wilder's biggest signing - namely Ched Evans and Darius Henderson. Clough had some successes, such as Che Adams. Coutts is an odd one though; he barely represented a footballer until working with Wilder.Can we really credit Clough with signing a footballer who did very little for him?
Our squad is worth many millions more than the worst squad in Sheffield United's modern history - which is what he inherited.

 

[snootyfenooty]

All I was trying to do was point out that Wilder has a better record in the transfer market than our other recent managers- a fact you can admit at any time.

Well if you put him up against the recent dross plus Robson and Blackwell then of course he has. I'm a bit more discerning and my yardsticks are Harris, Bassett and Warnock who all took us to the premier league. I hope Wilder does and believe he will but until then I'm not getting carried away. He will have to sharpen up his transfer dealings though because unless he comes up with a Currie, Deane or Jagielka it aint going to happen.

 

[nopigfansintown]

Luke was dealing with younger players than Brooks when he came in and didn’t have much to do with signing Brooks. Trav Binnion was heavily involved after chief academy scout Howard Dean first spotted him playing for City.

Maybe so,but I'm pretty sure he'd have to dot the i's and cross the t's as head of recruitment. Fedorenko was in situ from around 2012 ish and was picked of, along with Nick Cox, in May 16 by Man Utd (for anyone who doesn't know).I think where we would agree is that most academy player recruitment has little to do with the first team manager.There isn't enough hours in the day.

 

[stringer]

Maybe so,but I'm pretty sure he'd have to dot the i's and cross the t's as head of recruitment. Fedorenko was in situ from around 2012 ish and was picked of, along with Nick Cox, in May 16 by Man Utd (for anyone who doesn't know).I think where we would agree is that most academy player recruitment has little to do with the first team manager.There isn't enough hours in the day.

He’ll have likely signed off I’m but was hardly involved in the recruitment part with Brooksy. From the horse’s mouth!

 

[Lane Ender]

To compare Wilder's record with Robson't is the stuff of Lewis Carroll's fiction. Robson had a much bigger budget in 2007/8, than Chris Wilder had in 2017.Even Blackwell, who apparently had "no money" was able to sign two players for almost three times Wilder's biggest signing - namely Ched Evans and Darius Henderson. Clough had some successes, such as Che Adams. Coutts is an odd one though; he barely represented a footballer until working with Wilder.Can we really credit Clough with signing a footballer who did very little for him?
Our squad is worth many millions more than the worst squad in Sheffield United's modern history - which is what he inherited.

Clough new all about Coutts unlucky for Clough though Coutts came with an injury it was a while before he was fully fit

 

[nopigfansintown]

Clough new all about Coutts unlucky for Clough though Coutts came with an injury it was a while before he was fully fit

Agree he knew all about his football ability. Have to disagree that he was unlucky to sign him injured. That was well documented, same with James Wallace.

 

[Lane Ender]

Agree he knew all about his football ability. Have to disagree that he was unlucky to sign him injured. That was well documented, same with James Wallace.

Don’t think Clough thought it was that bad.