Does the club match the Manager's desire to succeed?

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Sean Thornton said:
It's a share allotment. Paid for in cash. £5.2m.

If the shares weren't fully paid for or the consideration was something other than cash, I would have said so.

So yes, a cash investment of £5.2m has been made.
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Thanks. 99% of people on here don't understand accountancy terms.
 



metalblade said:
Like it or not until a Chansiri type buys the club any investment will be tiny by championship standards. Who in their right mind would by SUFC ? For a start McCabe would want his money back which is not going to happen, not many would consider investing while McCabe owns the stadium and Academy. McCabe can't or will not put a huge amount in for a promotion push instead he is content to sit it out and hope for another Dave Basset to turn up and do it on the cheap. Ambition maybe, the means to invest heavily most definitely not a willingness to sell the club at a reasonable price most definitely not, sorry to say it but Wilder and Knill could well be gone before their contracts expire.
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Has he signed his new contract yet?
 
BushBlade said:
Thanks. 99% of people on here don't understand accountancy terms.
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I know but I'm not a tutor. When I did try to explain it, people just interpret it as they see fit. Same as referring to companies house info. Some invariably look at the wrong documents and quote the wrong figures, usually ones which suit their agenda.
 
Sean Thornton said:
I know but I'm not a tutor. When I did try to explain it, people just interpret it as they see fit. Same as referring to companies house info. Some invariably look at the wrong documents and quote the wrong figures, usually ones which suit their agenda.
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..and others lie by omission, then abuse people and have a little breakdown when fans quotie or questioning stuff...funny old world eh.
 
Sean Thornton said:
I know but I'm not a tutor. When I did try to explain it, people just interpret it as they see fit. Same as referring to companies house info. Some invariably look at the wrong documents and quote the wrong figures, usually ones which suit their agenda.
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I'd suggest that if you're not prepared to explain accountancy jargon to lay people, it's best not to use it. It just creates further confusion and gives the impression that you're obfuscating and being deliberately evasive, which I'm sure isn't the case.

All you had to say is 'they invested £4m last year but it looks like a further £5.2m has been invested since then and it may have been to cover the remaining losses, but we won't know until the accounts come out'. It would have saved you time answering my stupid questions.
 
Sean Thornton said:
I know but I'm not a tutor. When I did try to explain it, people just interpret it as they see fit. Same as referring to companies house info. Some invariably look at the wrong documents and quote the wrong figures, usually ones which suit their agenda.
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Sorry, forgot you had a stalker.
 
BushBlade said:
I'd suggest that if you're not prepared to explain accountancy jargon to lay people, it's best not to use it. It just creates further confusion and gives the impression that you're obfuscating and being deliberately evasive, which I'm sure isn't the case.

All you had to say is 'they invested £4m last year but it looks like a further £5.2m has been invested since then and it may have been to cover the remaining losses, but we won't know until the accounts come out'. It would have saved you time answering my stupid questions.
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I did say it was £4m last year - not for the first time either and confirmed to you that the investment was additional to that. The only "jargon" was referring to a share allotment . I also commented on it possibly being to cover last seasons losses.

Your questions weren't stupid, however I can't tell you definitely who paid for the shares because as I said, it doesn't say.

Please point out where I've seemed deliberately evasive though. I've given the facts that are available and passed on opinion, and those facts are in the public domain for anyone to check. Maybe that's what people should do?
 
Sean Thornton said:
I did say it was £4m last year - not for the first time either and confirmed to you that the investment was additional to that. The only "jargon" was referring to a share allotment . I also commented on it possibly being to cover last seasons losses.

Your questions weren't stupid, however I can't tell you definitely who paid for the shares because as I said, it doesn't say.

Please point out where I've seemed deliberately evasive though. I've given the facts that are available and passed on opinion, and those facts are in the public domain for anyone to check. Maybe that's what people should do?
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I didn't say you were being deliberately evasive, I said that was the impression given. I'm not going to start cutting and pasting your posts to show where. I'm not a tutor.
 
BushBlade said:
I didn't say you were being deliberately evasive, I said that was the impression given. I'm not going to start cutting and pasting your posts to show where. I'm not a tutor.
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Scratch that, more 'Chuckle Brothers'..
 
itsinyerblood said:
Some fair questions in your post Swiss. I agree, a reply to my question might require a more detailed set of facts to demonstrate what we're capable of achieving.

I suppose what I'm getting at is whether Wilder's patience is prepared to wait while the club builds for the future. As for what's regarded as success, my take is to look at the likes of S'hampton or Stoke as some kind of matrix for what's possible. Financially we'll never be able to compete with Chelsea, Man Utd, Man City, Tottenham, Arsenal or Liverpool, that's just a fact of life.

As for your comment about evidence regarding ambition, if by that you mean enabling the club to pay it's bills and continue through to the next season, well I guess that's a question of interpretation about what the club wants for itself. This isn't a post knocking McCabe or the Prince, I understand and appreciate what they both contribute, but whether it's sufficient to take the steps necessary to move forward is what concerns me. By using comments that allude to building for the future, well I guess that means we might need the disposition of a saint, or at least the patience of one.

What enabled us to achieve promotion from Division 1 to the Championship wasn't good planning or some kind of masterly business strategy, it was a fortunate appointment. We had tried with several managerial appointments to gain promotion, but it was only with the appointment of Chris Wilder and Alan Knill that we finally got the answer we were all desperate to receive. The club's supporters are fully behind Wilder, it feels as if we have a manager who can lift this club higher than it's ambitions have been for some time. But to make this possible will require income on a level that until now we've not been used to.
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I don't think you can look at Southampton and Stoke in the same way anymore as it was a previous era. Things have ramped up since. Perhaps look at Burnley or Bournemouth but even then, it's hard because they have had the benefit of Premier League money too.

The best model could well be Brentford. They've had a few years in the Championship to consolidate and then build and they've become a well respected side in the league

What we can expect at United is just that. Is that matching Wilder or the owners desires? Probably not. But what do we do? Gamble financially to potentially break the club and see us down to league 1 again? I definitely don't want that and I'm sure wilder or the owners don't either.

I think one thing is absolutely clear, prepare the best we can with a modest budget. Wilder is doing that and has done this summer, perhaps the so called 'unbeaten run' which apparently took on board friendlies (but only the ones we won) and went back to last season in a lower division has clouded the minds of many, but many of us said that this season would be hard. It wasn't to side with the pig fans. It's a hard league.

So what does that do for the desires? Nothing. We want to be a premier league club and have a manager to get us there on a relatively low budget. That desire won't be realised this season though. It was highly unlikely to have been the plan for this year

It has been said though, in McCabes summer briefing, that the club would make funds available this summer (which has happened already) for players. Those players may or may not have been A choices or even B choices but players that the manager selected for recruitment.

It's also been declared that if we're at either end of the table come January that funds would also be available for a push to promotion or a clamber out of the bottom end
 
BushBlade said:
I didn't say you were being deliberately evasive, I said that was the impression given. I'm not going to start cutting and pasting your posts to show where. I'm not a tutor.
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Where did I give the impression? :)

That would be a cutter and paster surely?
 
Sean Thornton said:
I know but I'm not a tutor. When I did try to explain it, people just interpret it as they see fit. Same as referring to companies house info. Some invariably look at the wrong documents and quote the wrong figures, usually ones which suit their agenda.
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Always been impressed by your understanding and explanation of club accounts :)
I understand how frustrating it must be having to keep explaining things - but the balance sheet has always been gibberish to most of us :(
Keep up the good work but to the uninitiated, even the way the companies are set up is confusing to the point of suspicion
 
Apart from Arsene Wenger and Arsenal, there isn't a club in the country where the board spending match the managers desire. All managers just want one or two more, or higher wage bill to keep everyone happy.
 



Harrisblade said:
Always been impressed by your understanding and explanation of club accounts :)
I understand how frustrating it must be having to keep explaining things - but the balance sheet has always been gibberish to most of us :(
Keep up the good work but to the uninitiated, even the way the companies are set up is confusing to the point of suspicion
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I understand that and most questions, like our Indonesian based friends' are genuine. It's not always easy. I should probably just have said KMc is no longer a director if Blades Leisure and left it at that but someone would have looked at SU Ltd and said I was wrong. :)

I'm much better with fish and season ticket attendee jokes though!
 
Bladesman said:
I think Wilder spoke about his ambition last night. He doesn't want us to be "just OK" he wants to be better, a lot better. Wilder isn't here to plod along like we did last time we fucked around in the Championship for over decade.

Do I think the club matches his ambition? Probably not.
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By that last comment do you really believe the club wants us struggling?
Last time we were here in the Championship we had a huge wage bill, one of the consistently highest in the league so Im struggling to balance that against an ambition to plod along.
 
What was the original 'agreement' between the HRH & KM , was it not that KM would write off his loans to the club if HRH would be the provider of new investment ?
 
Flatulent_Bob said:
By that last comment do you really believe the club wants us struggling?
Last time we were here in the Championship we had a huge wage bill, one of the consistently highest in the league so Im struggling to balance that against an ambition to plod along.
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McCabe makes his money through failure. I've read it on here.
 
John Street West Terrace said:
What was the original 'agreement' between the HRH & KM , was it not that KM would write off his loans to the club if HRH would be the provider of new investment ?
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McCabes loans became share capital of £10m matching HRH and the balance of some £27m to a share premium account which appears on the balance sheet.

From Wiki

The share premium account is an equity account found on a company's balance sheet. The amount in the accountrepresents the additional amount shareholders paid for their issuedshares that was in excess of the par value of those shares.
 
itsinyerblood said:
What enabled us to achieve promotion from Division 1 to the Championship wasn't good planning or some kind of masterly business strategy, it was a fortunate appointment. We had tried with several managerial appointments to gain promotion, but it was only with the appointment of Chris Wilder and Alan Knill that we finally got the answer we were all desperate to receive. The club's supporters are fully behind Wilder, it feels as if we have a manager who can lift this club higher than it's ambitions have been for some time. But to make this possible will require income on a level that until now we've not been used to.
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I think this is massively disingenuous to the board.
I've been critical of them previously for poor decisions but you can't then put the good ones down to luck. They found and appointed the manager, they backed him at L1 level, with a level of trust too as the decks also needed clearing from contracts that with hindsight weren't good value for money.
I've also not heard a hint of frustration from Wilder so maybe it's not that he's not being backed, but more that he's onboard with the approach.
 
Flatulent_Bob said:
I think this is massively disingenuous to the board.
I've been critical of them previously for poor decisions but you can't then put the good ones down to luck. They found and appointed the manager, they backed him at L1 level, with a level of trust too as the decks also needed clearing from contracts that with hindsight weren't good value for money.
I've also not heard a hint of frustration from Wilder so maybe it's not that he's not being backed, but more that he's onboard with the approach.
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I suppose CW was a fortunate appointment as much as the previous two were unfortunate. They were both decent appointments on paper and should have done better. And to get three decent appointments on paper and for none to succeed could certainly be considered bad luck.
It's a difficult concept to explain but what I'm trying to say is that they got the last three appointments 'right' (as right as they could be) even though two of the three failed. And the more times you do the right things, the more likely you are to succeed.
 
If we had gone up the day of Simmo's sub orbital penalty then the current model being pursued would have had much more chance iof success, average sides like Wednesday and Huddersfield stopped up relatively comfortably that year and have kicked one. (Charlton were taken over by a lunatic so set them aside)

Now in the five years since mainly due to the ridiculous amounts trickling down from the Prem things have changed, in my opinion there has to be a bit of a risk taken in an attempt to guarantee avoiding the instant re-drop. Whether we do that or take the other gamble that the manager and current squad can keep us up is the big question, only the owners can answer that.
 
Harry's Game said:
If we had gone up the day of Simmo's sub orbital penalty then the current model being pursued would have had much more chance iof success, average sides like Wednesday and Huddersfield stopped up relatively comfortably that year and have kicked one. (Charlton were taken over by a lunatic so set them aside)

Now in the five years since mainly due to the ridiculous amounts trickling down from the Prem things have changed, in my opinion there has to be a bit of a risk taken in an attempt to guarantee avoiding the instant re-drop. Whether we do that or take the other gamble that the manager and current squad can keep us up is the big question, only the owners can answer that.
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That's the balance isn't it; investing enough to make sure we stay up, investing it wisely enough to see a financial return on players in the future that we can re-invest and keep moving forwards but making sure it's sustainable and won't put the finances of the club at risk.

It's not going to be easy.
 
So basically, what Sean Thornton and BushBlade are saying in a juvenile and round-about way is that someone has put some money into the club that is less than what was put in in L1.

This with the common consensesus being the club is due an £8 or so million 'windfall' this season.

Top stuff, no wonder you wanted to share the news :D

Btw, Sean Thornton when's that rent going up again? (Lol)
 
There are few, if any, football clubs which have the wherewithal to match their manager's ambition.
 



The club has had 50 years of what it deserves
11 seasons in Division Three
1 season in Division Four
And most of the rest in Division Two

Most of this came about long before money became a massive issue

They tried to do it on the cheap in the 60's
Didn't learn in the 70's
Didn't learn in the 80's

Then against all odds were rescued on the cheap by Dave Bassett
They didn't learn in the 90's

They were again rescued against all odds in the early/mid 2000's by Warnock on the cheap
They didn't learn again

Now it's too late to seriously compete ever again
 
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