Updates From Wilder

[alcoblade]

I agree with you on that if i'm honest. Remember saying that I doubted he'd ever score in a competitive game for us., he does have the physically attributes to make a name for himself tho with the right coaching and stuff.

Do like the look of Whiteman tho even if it is only in comparison to Hammond last year. Got a beauty against the pigs the other day too.

If Hammond is the benchmark then I'll fetch my boots!

 

[CaptainHotdog]

A few in this thread have had a moan that we haven't seen enough academy players in our first team since we've been in this division. A few others have made reference to Chelsea & Man City and how they have also overlooked young talent.

Now I'm not in anyway making comparisons on the capability we have and that of Chelsea or Man City. However in terms of where the three teams stand in the division they play in then there are comparisons. Us like City & Chelsea can find it easier to replace a player with an established signing (relevant to the standard each play at) instead of 'risk' playing a youngster.

Other teams with less pressure and not as much expectation can take those risks and give young players a run in the team.

Let's say we get promoted and next season we're a mediocre mid table side in the Championship with no real risk of relegation (never thought that would sound so appealing!) we can then play more youngsters, take more risks.

At the moment every season is shit or bust because we're so desperate for promotion. As such we take less risks - we play less youngsters.

 

[coolhandluke]

The probelm is, the examples get further and further away. Maguire came through when we were in the Chamionship, six years ago.

Since then, we've had only George Long, who's been a millstone, not an asset. One first team regular in 6 years, and a really poor one at that.

It's a truly atrocious record given the shit they should be replacing. We're cemeted in the third division, and it still can't produce better.

So, is this because poor little Louis Reed and the like don't get the chance they "deserve"? Well, given that most of these desperate pleas are followed by a career in the Sunday league, you'd hope people would learn. But it's the same cries repeated, never the old culprits coming on and admitting they got it wrong.

Where's Joe Ironside these days?

UTB

PS shit signings suggest we should learn the lessons of making shit signings, not place more emphasis on a failed academy system. At last, Wilder seems to be demonstrating lessons learned.

The record from the academy has been relatively poor for the last 6 or 7 years now and no one can really argue otherwise . Ok a couple of sales may mean that it's just about paid it's way but any conclusion other than it has been below par is wrong .

Is there any coincidence between how the academy has performed for these last 6 - 7 years though and the god awful fortunes on the pitch for the first team and the revolving door situation with first team managers ? I think it's more than just a plain old coincidence . I believe the academy performance is symptomatic of the general malaise at the club .

If Wilder's here for a good length of time I'd lay good odds that the academy really starts to get into top gear again . Especially in light of CW'S enlightening approach to what he wants to see from the academy in terms of application .

 

[gavtheblade]

As I said before you could make a case for Kennedy but for factors outside his control. And if DCL was good enough for a premier league side I cant help but feel he might well have been an asset.

We have suffered with a bloated squad and I guess that has seen the slow down of talent.

As has been mentioned if you can introduce 1 or 2 a year supplementing their development with some spells out on loan to gain experience I don't think you'd be doing a bad job. You'll never see an academy 1-11.

Agree on the shite signings I would love to see the best non league and L1/2 talent being really focused on and used to identify diamonds in the rough.

It was a terrible shame about Kennedy and his fitness, the lad sempt to have the Morgan factor about him.
The way his career ended so early reminded me of John Reid, another talent who's body gave way before it should have. Shame.

 

[Cerberus Blade]

This Chapman bloke...he's not pulling any trees up is he? I think he'll be going home soon.

 

[JohnDenver]

Especially in light of CW'S enlightening approach to what he wants to see from the academy in terms of application .

Does that mean we no longer indulge players with attitudes like De Girolamo in the academy? Tricky one that - talent is a rare thing and kids can change. But my instinct would be to bin anyone whose mouth works harder than their legs.

 

[coolhandluke]

Does that mean we no longer indulge players with attitudes like De Girolamo in the academy? Tricky one that - talent is a rare thing and kids can change. But my instinct would be to bin anyone whose mouth works harder than their legs.

It's a bit of a conundrum that one .

A clearly talented and precocious teenager can easily get caught up in his own hype . When that happens the coaches focus can become one of keeping him in line in terms of attitude and application rather than further honing and developing his footballing prowess . I'm of the same opinion as you when this happens ...... just bin the fucker and move on .

But that's why I was at pains to point out why the academy needs CW at the helm as long as possible ( assuming he makes a go of it at first team level of course ) .

CW is already stamping his authority on the club in terms of attitude and application and we've already seen and heard what his thoughts are regarding academy prospects . Give him a couple of years at the helm and the entire club will be shaped in exactly the way he wants it to be . More pertinently the academy will be well set up., well organised and discipline and application will be the norm . And this attitude and application will prove infectious to everyone there . Billy big bollox will be rightly and routinely ostracised by everyone at the club including the academy lads aswell . It wouldn't be long before everyone knew exactly what was expected and they'd all shut up and crack on imo

 

[Pinchy]

I've seen nothing in Whiteman if I'm honest. It smacks of the same over optimism for young talent.

That said, I'm in the minority, and I want you to be right, not me.

UTB

Your wish will not be granted, sadly. Whiteman and Brookes are superstars in the making. If we don't givemarun their sublime skills will be lost to the game. If only we'd have given young Nogoals Joe more of a chance he'd be an international by now. As for De Juve, he'd be strutting the world stage but for that cruel Mr. Clough.

We have let these poor lads, and many others, down badly. Shame on us. Our club exists only for the benefit of a bunch of snotty nosed kids and their deluded families and friends. It's about time we recognised that. Show them some respect....

 

[Pinchy]

...you must think i am more stupid than i sound.

That would be a hell of an achievement...

 

[Silent Blade]

I dread to think where we would be without the £4m from Jags, £2m from Tonge

Stop trying to "sex up" our Academy! Jags was signed from Everton's youth set up in the late 1990s and it was the same for Tonge who was released by Man U whewn Steve Bruce signed him. Jags never played any Academy matches at all and Tonge played less than a handful Academy matches when we started in 2001. I saw him in a few matches

 

[Barney]

I raised the point about the academy in recent years back in October last year.

http://www.s24su.com/forum/index.php?threads/academy-slowing-up.42765/

Of course I got slated for it, and was told how wrong I was to doubt Louis' stardom.

 

[mattbianco1]

This is my point exactly.

Brookes is being held back by a Middlesboro Loan signing of 18 years old. Brookes arrives in a shity old Fiesta while Chapman arrives in his top of the range Mercedes.... Brookes busts a gut for the 23s, Chapman didn't try a leg.

Brookes trying to break through to the first team, Chapman thinks he should be in the first team.

You can keep your Premier League teenage superstars, i would rather push through our own and give them the first team game time Chapman will steal this season.



I

Brooks needs to bulk up. Good player yes but far from ready to play regularly. I expect him to gain 1st team experience in the FA Trophy and FA Cup RDs 1&2.

Chapman has been brought through the ranks at a much better team with better players around him. He's head and shoulders above Brooks in terms of 1st team ability at present.

I hope Brooks does make some cameos this season and develops well. But, Wilder is right not to throw him in too early, it could knock his confidence and halt his progression.

 

[larkymasher]

Your wish will not be granted, sadly. Whiteman and Brookes are superstars in the making. If we don't givemarun their sublime skills will be lost to the game. If only we'd have given young Nogoals Joe more of a chance he'd be an international by now. As for De Juve, he'd be strutting the world stage but for that cruel Mr. Clough.

We have let these poor lads, and many others, down badly. Shame on us. Our club exists only for the benefit of a bunch of snotty nosed kids and their deluded families and friends. It's about time we recognised that. Show them some respect....

Gone midnight and Mrs Sarcasm comes out to play.
You have been damaged in some way by the thought of a kid coming through the academy. Was it you that got rejected? A family member?

I think I will leave the academy debate alone now as it seems to bring the worst out in you.

Let's agree to disagree if you can manage that without a sarcastic reply.

 

[Ricky]

Differing points of view about academy players = bitter, personal, disrespectful and sarcastic replies.

Thought it was only Bladesmad where that happens!

 

[larkymasher]

Differing points of view about academy players = bitter, personal, disrespectful and sarcastic replies.

Thought it was only Bladesmad where that happens!

Could not agree more Ricky. The problem is when you have an honest opinion and it is drowned out by sarcasm with no point behind it.

My feelings are to respect everyone and their views until it is clear that you are dealing with a dick..... Then it's time to step back and walk away..

Negative nasty comments about teenage lads that are trying to make their way in the game or have tried and failed are poor. Very poor.

 

[FTPE]

This Chapman bloke...he's not pulling any trees up is he? I think he'll be going home soon.

He could be, I read a report the other day saying he couldn't give a shit during last week's under 23's game.
I'm biased because I want Brooks to get a shot but I'd send him straight back if it's true.

 

[Pinchy]

Differing points of view about academy players = bitter, personal, disrespectful and sarcastic replies.

Thought it was only Bladesmad where that happens!

Differing points of view are fine. No problem. As Brian Clough said, we'll have a good talk about it and conclude that I was right all along.

I'm not anti-academy. I'd be delighted to see talented young players coming through. What I take issue with, however is:

1. You can't make a player by wishful thinking. There comes a time when the evidence that a player is not good enough is overwhelming. I saw that evidence in, for example, Ironside when everyone else was full of "Young Joe - first name on the team sheet" Little Louis, I called a long (there's another one...) time ago, to much derision. Presently, it's Whiteman and Brookes. I haven't seen the latter but I've seen the former and he's done very little to indicate that he's ready yet, but the starry-eyed Bladey Boyband Blades are building up a head of steam behind him.

2. The sense of self-entitlement amongst some Academy players and their families and supporters. There seems to be a naive Sunday League U-15s thinking that everyone is entitled to a "run" or a "chance". We even had Dimaio's dad whinging on here! What happened to him? What happened to his "hard done by" offspring?

3. People have been watching too much reality TV shite, I fear. I've consulted the Real World and apparently these kids get a 'chance' in training every day and a 'run' in the U-18s and U-23s every week. RW says the onus is on them to impress to such an extent that the Manager has no option but to include them. CW clearly thinks along the same lines as he said exactly these things in his interview on Thursday. The Bladey Boyband Brigade choose to sidestep such obvious common sense.

4. Young players are here for the benefit of Sheffield United, not the other way round. We are a professional football club and the objective is to win matches here and now. There is absolutely no obligation to give Jimmy, Jack and Giacomo a "run" on the off chance they will suddenly do something they haven't in the last dozen games at their own level. We don't, for example, have any duty to concede ridiculous goal after ridiculous goal in the vain pursuit of "developing" Calamity George.

5. I despise the ludicrous "One of our own" mantra. It's parochial and embarrassing. Tony Currie was born in London, never played for the youth team and never supported the Blades as a kid. He did quite well, I hear.

 

[larkymasher]

He could be, I read a report the other day saying he couldn't give a shit during last week's under 23's game.
I'm biased because I want Brooks to get a shot but I'd send him straight back if it's true.

Not sure if the new loan system allows us to cancel a loan

Differing points of view are fine. No problem. As Brian Clough said, we'll have a good talk about it and conclude that I was right all along.

I'm not anti-academy. I'd be delighted to see talented young players coming through. What I take issue with, however is:

1. You can't make a player by wishful thinking. There comes a time when the evidence that a player is not good enough is overwhelming. I saw that evidence in, for example, Ironside when everyone else was full of "Young Joe - first name on the team sheet" Little Louis, I called a long (there's another one...) time ago, to much derision. Presently, it's Whiteman and Brookes. I haven't seen the latter but I've seen the former and he's done very little to indicate that he's ready yet, but the starry-eyed Bladey Boyband Blades are building up a head of steam behind him.

2. The sense of self-entitlement amongst some Academy players and their families and supporters. There seems to be a naive Sunday League U-15s thinking that everyone is entitled to a "run" or a "chance". We even had Dimaio's dad whinging on here! What happened to him? What happened to his "hard done by" offspring?

3. People have been watching too much reality TV shite, I fear. I've consulted the Real World and apparently these kids get a 'chance' in training every day and a 'run' in the U-18s and U-23s every week. RW says the onus is on them to impress to such an extent that the Manager has no option but to include them. CW clearly thinks along the same lines as he said exactly these things in his interview on Thursday. The Bladey Boyband Brigade choose to sidestep such obvious common sense.

4. Young players are here for the benefit of Sheffield United, not the other way round. We are a professional football club and the objective is to win matches here and now. There is absolutely no obligation to give Jimmy, Jack and Giacomo a "run" on the off chance they will suddenly do something they haven't in the last dozen games at their own level. We don't, for example, have any duty to concede ridiculous goal after ridiculous goal in the vain pursuit of "developing" Calamity George.

5. I despise the ludicrous "One of our own" mantra. It's parochial and embarrassing. Tony Currie was born in London, never played for the youth team and never supported the Blades as a kid. He did quite well, I hear.

At last a clear appraisal of where you stand on the academy and any future prospects.

I agree with every single point. Except maybe your opinion is being clouded by the few players / parents who think they all have earned the right for great things but are just not good enough. This i agree is an issue with not only our academy but academies in general.

My point is that it is only after testing a player in the first team that a judgement can be made whether they are good enough or not. Opinions on Whiteman differ but if someone truly believes he is worth a run in the team then thats their opinion as is yours that he is not good enough.

Ironside, Reed, Slew, etc etc have had a chance, not by me but by the managers whose judgement we trust.

At the moment i think Brookes is worth a chance............ not another 4 or 5, just him. But it is only my opinion Pinchy.

Apologies for being an arse

 

[Pinchy]

Not sure if the new loan system allows us to cancel a loan

At last a clear appraisal of where you stand on the academy and any future prospects.

I agree with every single point. Except maybe your opinion is being clouded by the few players / parents who think they all have earned the right for great things but are just not good enough. This i agree is an issue with not only our academy but academies in general.

My point is that it is only after testing a player in the first team that a judgement can be made whether they are good enough or not. Opinions on Whiteman differ but if someone truly believes he is worth a run in the team then thats their opinion as is yours that he is not good enough.

Ironside, Reed, Slew, etc etc have had a chance, not by me but by the managers whose judgement we trust.

At the moment i think Brookes is worth a chance............ not another 4 or 5, just him. But it is only my opinion Pinchy.

Apologies for being an arse

No apology necessary and you haven't been. How and when would you give Brookes a chance? I think people would rightly be a little concerned, to give an absurd example, if he were to start today's game?

 

[larkymasher]

No apology necessary and you haven't been. How and when would you give Brookes a chance? I think people would rightly be a little concerned, to give an absurd example, if he were to start today's game?

I think he needs to be included on the bench over the next couple of months, Checkatrade starts, FA Cup starts.

Again i am not saying just chuck him in, that is not realistic, but i genuinely think he should be getting the same treatment that we afford Chapman.

 

[Balham]

No apology necessary and you haven't been. How and when would you give Brookes a chance? I think people would rightly be a little concerned, to give an absurd example, if he were to start today's game?

I don't think anyone is suggesting that Whiteman or Brooks should be immediately starting games but if we're making a substitution with 10 mins to go, why not see if the lads who have done well in the reserves can perform at first team level? If, as suggested, Chapman's attitude was poor in midweek he should lose his place on the bench to Brooks or Whiteman. At that point it's down to the manager to use his judgement as to whether and when to introduce them.

I believe Dimaio's dad's point was that Clough wouldn't engage with young Conor after playing him out of position. I mean, you'd not expect the head of Chambers to put a criminal barrister on a family case and perform to the same level, would you? I don't think Dimaio Sr came across well but it added to the litany of evidence that Clough was an arse.

 

[Finn Keane o' Balmaqueen]

I have to say, and maybe I am old fashioned here, but how can young players be so unfit? You don't need ex[pensive kit to stay fit, you just need a decent pair of trainers and a park nearby. I would have thought young lads who want to make a name for themselves in pro football would be out everyday, doing sprint training, long distance training, and running at a reasonable clip for 2 x 45 minutes around a field.

I know that running doesn't mean you are in the shape for competitive football, but it should take you somewhere close?

Not sure what it's like at SUFC, but a few clubs I know of, are very strict with the training regimes.
Players ONLY allowed to follow the schedule(s) set up by themselves.
If they suffer an injury due to training without their permission, they won't be covered by any insurance.
I know, baffling, but I can accept when we're talking of players valued at £m's ....

On another note, Guardiola is the manager to follow... his methods.
As we've already seen this season so far.

 

[Pinchy]

Not sure what it's like at SUFC, but a few clubs I know of, are very strict with the training regimes.
Players ONLY allowed to follow the schedule(s) set up by themselves.
If they suffer an injury due to training without their permission, they won't be covered by any insurance.
I know, baffling, but I can accept when we're talking of players valued at £m's ....

On another note, Guardiola is the manager to follow... his methods.
As we've already seen this season so far.

Indeed. I'm surprised we've never considered him for the job at BDTBL....perhaps next time?

 

[robbiez666]

I think the point regarding Chelsea and Man City isn't quite as simple. Yes, they've not got academy players in their first team. However, it doesn't mean their Academies aren't producing players. Off the top of my head, Betrand, Sinclair, C Cole, Iheanacho, Mee, Schmeichel, D Sturridge and erm Ched Evans.

 

[Finn Keane o' Balmaqueen]

Indeed. I'm surprised we've never considered him for the job at BDTBL....perhaps next time?

When CW was appointed and said, "no more square pegs in round holes" ... I thought he'd also been studying Guardiola. I know you too are an advocate of playing players in "their" most favoured positions and not expecting, a LB to do the job of a LM or a CH to play RB... whether or not he can follow, it may be a struggle, as we're Sheffield United with limited resources.

 

[SouthEssexBlade]

Not sure what it's like at SUFC, but a few clubs I know of, are very strict with the training regimes.
Players ONLY allowed to follow the schedule(s) set up by themselves.
If they suffer an injury due to training without their permission, they won't be covered by any insurance.
I know, baffling, but I can accept when we're talking of players valued at £m's ....

On another note, Guardiola is the manager to follow... his methods.
As we've already seen this season so far.

This is true and in fact goes further with the clubs imposing tailored diets/nutrition plans. The screening of players is very comprehensive, aside from the backpacks they all wear now to monitor distance covered and heart rate/pulse, they also get regular blood testing covering loads of different stuff you'd think wasn't important. And of course the scrupulous checking of oral/dental hygiene. Guardiola likes all that stuff, and plenty more allegedly!

 

[robbiez666]

Everton are a club we should be aiming to mimic in terms of our Academy. A club with a relatively small budget in their league who punch above their weight every year. Their Academy has produced:

Rooney
Baines
Dier
Rodwell
Browning
Osman
Barkley
Barton
Anichebe

 

[SouthEssexBlade]

This is true and in fact goes further with the clubs imposing tailored diets/nutrition plans. The screening of players is very comprehensive, aside from the backpacks they all wear now to monitor distance covered and heart rate/pulse, they also get regular blood testing covering loads of different stuff you'd think wasn't important. And of course the scrupulous checking of oral/dental hygiene. Guardiola likes all that stuff, and plenty more allegedly!

For those that might not have been aware of the research on poor oral hygiene and injury. Here's an article about the research by, surprise, surprise, The University of Barcelona:

http://www.ub.edu/web/ub/en/menu_eines/noticies/2013/01/012.html

 

[BushBlade]

I don't think anyone is suggesting that Whiteman or Brooks should be immediately starting games but if we're making a substitution with 10 mins to go, why not see if the lads who have done well in the reserves can perform at first team level? If, as suggested, Chapman's attitude was poor in midweek he should lose his place on the bench to Brooks or Whiteman. At that point it's down to the manager to use his judgement as to whether and when to introduce them.

I believe Dimaio's dad's point was that Clough wouldn't engage with young Conor after playing him out of position. I mean, you'd not expect the head of Chambers to put a criminal barrister on a family case and perform to the same level, would you? I don't think Dimaio Sr came across well but it added to the litany of evidence that Clough was an arse.

I think it's quite old school to play young players out of position. You're not measuring their technical ability, you can do that by watching them train and play in the U-21s (or 23s as it is now), you're testing their character. A professional doesn't moan when he's asked to do a job for a team, he gets on with it and does his best.

Any young player should be delighted to play in the first team, whatever position and should try their utmost to make a success of it. If they don't have the mental strength to do that then they haven't got the mental strength to play in difficult games, when things aren't going well. They have no ability to dig in.

As Pinchy has said, they have an underserved sense of self entitlement that needs to be knocked out of them. It's not school sports day and life is far from fair. I can't see CW having a lot of patience with kids who whinge that they're being played out of position. I suspect his view would be 'you're lucky to play for us, get on with it or fuck off.'

 

[Ldn_Rd_Blades]

The only oral hygiene they do in Sheffield is finishing their half after they've swallowed