Updates From Wilder

[8lade]

Just about to make up an exotic name to go alongside Brookes/Brooks and decides not to

 

[Silent Blade]

So what?

Got to admit i'm not fully up to speed on the differences but thought that only prem clubs could be cat 1? I take the point but their (and England's) first choice right back was produced by us - they also saw fit to buy another one of our academy products in Naughton.

In general my point was more that I enjoy Billy getting goals for us because I also know how much they mean to him at the same time. He's always been desperate to do well here and has come back for a 3rd time to try and do that. I like to see young players come through cos I think that's they way it should be rather than spunking 20m on every position in the team.

It has made a difference to me when considering wanky football league cup games - playing some of the young lads could quite often be the difference in me attending or sacking it off - especially with some of the turgid football we've endured over the last 2 years

The PL forced the FL clubs to accept the EPPP so our Academy now isnt as good as it was. We have not had a player from the Academy that is having regular games for us since Maguire. In 2001 I was sceptical about us starting an Academy because I thought it would be too expensive for us to run. The aim was to have young players who are good enough to play in the Premiership FOR US. 15 years later we are in our 6th year in this division. No more arguments!

 

[Maidenhead]

So do I ,the times Ive been called shitwell...........

If you do can you let me know the secret?

I often struggle myself

 

[alcoblade]

At last, someone that went to the game... and watched the same as me.

Wards you have an opinion i will listen too. Too many others have never seen half of the players we talk about but have massive opinions about how good or bad they are.....

I think you're missing the point. Those that haven't seen them play aren't drawing from their own experience to rate the players. They are saying they they would rather trust the managers full time view of the players than a few wager observers.

Anyhow, I really like he look (of the small amount I've seen) of Brookes.

UTB

 

[alcoblade]

The PL forced the FL clubs to accept the EPPP so our Academy now isnt as good as it was. We have not had a player from the Academy that is having regular games for us since Maguire. In 2001 I was sceptical about us starting an Academy because I thought it would be too expensive for us to run. The aim was to have young players who are good enough to play in the Premiership FOR US. 15 years later we are in our 6th year in this division. No more arguments!

Bang on.

 

[Bladeinleeds]

The PL forced the FL clubs to accept the EPPP so our Academy now isnt as good as it was. We have not had a player from the Academy that is having regular games for us since Maguire. In 2001 I was sceptical about us starting an Academy because I thought it would be too expensive for us to run. The aim was to have young players who are good enough to play in the Premiership FOR US. 15 years later we are in our 6th year in this division. No more arguments!

There's Long - and while I know he's not flavour of the month has certainly played his part for us. Think Kennedy would have played a lot more too but for injury. DCL didn't play much but apparently did something correct for Everton to take a punt.

It could also be to do with having had a huge squad of bang average players who are on good money so previous managers have been obliged to play.

Been done to death but i'd argue that a succession of piss poor managerial choices, selling our best players at the worst possible moments and more than a smattering of bad luck are the main reasons we aren't in the division above at least - not the academy.

I'm as frustrated as everyone else when we cant keep hold of them, but I dread to think where we would be without the £4m from Jags, £2m from Tonge, £2m from Maguire (would obviously have been at least double if we were a championship club) £1m for DCL, £1m for Slew and the £6-10m I've seen quoted for Naughton and Walker. It must have nearly paid for itself imo.

Another point to consider now is the ridiculous prices players can reach now - Championship players can go for £10m plus, we only need to produce one of them to make us financially secure for a few seasons.

 

[alcoblade]

There's Long - and while I know he's not flavour of the month has certainly played his part for us. Think Kennedy would have played a lot more too but for injury. DCL didn't play much but apparently did something correct for Everton to take a punt.

Been done to death but i'd argue that a succession of piss poor managerial choices, selling our best players at the worst possible moments and more than a smattering of bad luck are the main reasons we aren't in the division above at least - not the academy.

I'm as frustrated as everyone else when we cant keep hold of them, but I dread to think where we would be without the £4m from Jags, £2m from Tonge, £2m from Maguire (would obviously have been at least double if we were a championship club) £1m for DCL and the £6-10m I've seen quoted for Naughton and Walker. It must have nearly paid for itself imo.

Another point to consider now is the ridiculous prices players can reach now - Championship players can go for £10m plus, we only need to produce one of them to make us financially secure for a few seasons.

Several of those players you listed are pre academy.

And if we didn't have the academy, we'd be putting more energy into finding the Murphy's and Adams's of the world. Plenty of money can and talent can be generated without an academy.

If we'd been doing that for 10 years, we'd have generated more money and not had the enormous cost to bare, or the damaging disappointment when the product is sold to cover the very cost of the thing that produced them.

UTB

 

[Bladeinleeds]

Several of those players you listed are pre academy.

And if we didn't have the academy, we'd be putting more energy into finding the Murphy's and Adams's of the world. Plenty of money can and talent can be generated without an academy.

If we'd been doing that for 10 years, we'd have generated more money and not had the enormous cost to bare, or the damaging disappointment when the product is sold to cover the very cost of the thing that produced them.

UTB

Those are fair points

Quinny was probably pre academy too but the point still stands.

I'm not sure what the costs of running the academy are per year I can't believe after the initial costs of set up its actually crippling financially - obviously you have maintenance and coaching staff but I think its being in division 3 that is making us sell these players and having a large squad of players on thousands a week - got to be more draining that an academy lad on a couple of 100.

I'd argue we have we never really proved successful recruitment wise - the bad far outweigh the good. Have we ever really been proficient in recruitment in a way that say Peterborough or Chesterfield or Barnsley recently have?

Theres no reason we couldn't do both is there would Alfie Mawson or Clukas or Vardy not signed for us if we'd had the vision to sign them?

 

[Bladeinleeds]

Those are fair points

Quinny was probably pre academy too but the point still stands.

I'm not sure what the costs of running the academy are per year I can't believe after the initial costs of set up its actually crippling financially - obviously you have maintenance and coaching staff but I think its being in division 3 that is making us sell these players and having a large squad of players on thousands a week - got to be more draining that an academy lad on a couple of 100.

I'd argue we have we never really proved successful recruitment wise - the bad far outweigh the good. Have we ever really been proficient in recruitment in a way that say Peterborough or Chesterfield or Barnsley recently have?

Theres no reason we couldn't do both is there would Alfie Mawson or Clukas or Vardy not signed for us if we'd had the vision to sign them?

We can only hope that in 3/4 years time we are praising the vision of wilder to bring in O'Connell and Lavery... Who knows

 

[larkymasher]

The cost of running the academy routine is just another lame excuse to cover up for the lack of quality the first team has dished up for the last 6 years.
Every club in the country barring Brentford ( and we all know they are a club run like a scientific experiment ) has a youth set up. CAT 1,2,3.

What bright spark thinks we will do the opposite to 91 other clubs and close the academy? Get fucking real and stop coming up with shit excuses about why we are where we are.

 

[Ricky]

There's nothing wrong whatsoever with wanting the more promising young players to be given a proper chance in the first team. When you have a limited budget like us these young players often offer us the best hope of seeing something exceptional - and we're due one. Although I think DCL would've made an impact. You only fully know how good they are when they're given a chance in the first team. It's a different stage for them, and some of them will grasp the opportunity and excel.

There's definitely an argument that the academy's been a waste of time but it will have probably paid for itself and how many clubs of our size don't have an academy? I'd imagine very few, if any. There's no reason why having an academy should restrict or dictate the scouting of other (young) players and heavily influence recruitment. If it has done for us, it's an avoidable problem, not a reason to close the academy.

 

[larkymasher]

There's nothing wrong whatsoever with wanting the more promising young players to be given a proper chance in the first team. When you have a limited budget like us these young players often offer the best hope of us seeing something exceptional - and we're due one. Although I think DCL would've made an impact. You only fully know how good they are when they're given a chance in the first team. It's a different stage for them, and some of them will grasp the opportunity and excel.

There's definitely an argument that the academy's been a waste of time but it will have probably paid for itself and how many clubs of our size don't have an academy? I'd imagine very few, if any. There's no reason why having an academy should restrict or dictate the scouting of other (young) players and heavily influence recruitment. If it has done for us, it's an avoidable problem, not a reason to close the academy.

Promising young players given a chance?

How dare you even whisper that drivel.............

 

[Ricky]

Promising young players given a chance?

How dare you even whisper that drivel.............

Can't be risking it while we're in the third division can we! Even when we're mid table.

 

[alcoblade]

Those are fair points

Quinny was probably pre academy too but the point still stands.

I'm not sure what the costs of running the academy are per year I can't believe after the initial costs of set up its actually crippling financially - obviously you have maintenance and coaching staff but I think its being in division 3 that is making us sell these players and having a large squad of players on thousands a week - got to be more draining that an academy lad on a couple of 100.

I'd argue we have we never really proved successful recruitment wise - the bad far outweigh the good. Have we ever really been proficient in recruitment in a way that say Peterborough or Chesterfield or Barnsley recently have?

Theres no reason we couldn't do both is there would Alfie Mawson or Clukas or Vardy not signed for us if we'd had the vision to sign them?

I saw some figures of around £1,000,000 a year to run academies at a lower status than ours. I think they are very expensive to run.

UTB

 

[alcoblade]

The cost of running the academy routine is just another lame excuse to cover up for the lack of quality the first team has dished up for the last 6 years.
Every club in the country barring Brentford ( and we all know they are a club run like a scientific experiment ) has a youth set up. CAT 1,2,3.

What bright spark thinks we will do the opposite to 91 other clubs and close the academy? Get fucking real and stop coming up with shit excuses about why we are where we are.

It's seeing people foam at the mouth like this at the prospect of players of the standard of Loius Reed not being given a "Fair run" that make me want to see the back if it even more.

 

[larkymasher]

Can't be risking it while we're in the third division can we! Even when we're mid table.

There's nothing wrong whatsoever with wanting the more promising young players to be given a proper chance in the first team. When you have a limited budget like us these young players often offer us the best hope of seeing something exceptional - and we're due one. Although I think DCL would've made an impact. You only fully know how good they are when they're given a chance in the first team. It's a different stage for them, and some of them will grasp the opportunity and excel.

There's definitely an argument that the academy's been a waste of time but it will have probably paid for itself and how many clubs of our size don't have an academy? I'd imagine very few, if any. There's no reason why having an academy should restrict or dictate the scouting of other (young) players and heavily influence recruitment. If it has done for us, it's an avoidable problem, not a reason to close the academy.

i agree with ever bit of your posts pal.

 

[alcoblade]

Promising young players given a chance?

How dare you even whisper that drivel.............

Who do you want to see more on the field, and at the expense of who?

You've mentioned Brooks and Chapman, where you might find some agreement. Got any more examples?

UTB

 

[Bladeinleeds]

I saw some figures of around £1,000,000 a year to run academies at a lower status than ours. I think they are very expensive to run.

UTB

You may well be right..

But at the end of the day that's basically probably less than the cost of having signed Sammon/Hammond on loan last year and probably less than the cost of sacking Adkins and paying up his contract.

When you look at it that way its a comparative bargain. Even they are bad examples its only 2x Sharps salary for the same costs

 

[larkymasher]

It's seeing people doam at the mouth like this at the prospect of players of the standard of Loius Reed not being given a "Fair run" that make me want to see the back if it even more.

Easy pal......... not even i can make a heart felt plea on Reed. After 50 odd first team outings even i would say he is not good enough.

I am not delusional enough to say play them all.... i mean players who CW has mentioned , Brookes, Semple. Although Semple is still a year away i grant you.

I just don't understand that we have a young player who needs a first team enviroment like Brookes 19, and we sign Chapman 18, who will not play 5 full first team games this season.......

 

[alcoblade]

You may well be right..

But at the end of the day that's basically probably less than the cost of having signed Sammon/Hammond on loan last year and probably less than the cost of sacking Adkins and paying up his contract.

When you look at it that way its a comparative bargain. Even they are bad examples its only 2x Sharps salary for the same costs

The probelm is, the examples get further and further away. Maguire came through when we were in the Chamionship, six years ago.

Since then, we've had only George Long, who's been a millstone, not an asset. One first team regular in 6 years, and a really poor one at that.

It's a truly atrocious record given the shit they should be replacing. We're cemeted in the third division, and it still can't produce better.

So, is this because poor little Louis Reed and the like don't get the chance they "deserve"? Well, given that most of these desperate pleas are followed by a career in the Sunday league, you'd hope people would learn. But it's the same cries repeated, never the old culprits coming on and admitting they got it wrong.

Where's Joe Ironside these days?

UTB

PS shit signings suggest we should learn the lessons of making shit signings, not place more emphasis on a failed academy system. At last, Wilder seems to be demonstrating lessons learned.

 

[larkymasher]

Who do you want to see more on the field, and at the expense of who?

You've mentioned Brooks and Chapman, where you might find some agreement. Got any more examples?

UTB

Thats my point, if we introduce one player a season its progress. At least you kind of agreed regards Brookes and Chapman. The next one maybe Semple introduced later next season over Wilson or Wright. Eventually Whiteman over Basham... Then over the next 2 seasons we have introduced 3 home grown players. Players that CW has highlighted already.

If you think i want 3 or 4 in right this minute then you must think i am more stupid than i sound.

 

[Bladeinleeds]

Easy pal......... not even i can make a heart felt plea on Reed. After 50 odd first team outings even i would say he is not good enough.

I am not delusional enough to say play them all.... i mean players who CW has mentioned , Brookes, Semple. Although Semple is still a year away i grant you.

I just don't understand that we have a young player who needs a first team enviroment like Brookes 19, and we sign Chapman 18, who will not play 5 full first team games this season.......

I rate Whiteman and think that Basham can consider himself quite fortunate he's never had a spell out of the side.

Don't think it would hurt for either of our young keepers to be in the squad and wait a few years to get their chance.

I think reed isn't a bad player either, I just don't think he's really found the best role for him in the current side. But in a side where he just needs to retain and recycle possession I think he could be an asset.

 

[larkymasher]

The probelm is, the examples get further and further away. Maguire came through when we were in the Chamiobship, six years ago.

Since then, we've had only George Long, who's been a millstone, not an asset. One first team regular in 6 years, and a really poor one at that.

It's a truly atrocious record given the shit they should be replacing. We're cemeted in the third division, and it still can't produce better.

So, is this because poor little Louis Reed and the like don't get the chance they "deserve"? Well, given that most of these desperate pleas are followed by a career in the Sunday league, you'd hope people would learn. But it's the same cries repeated, never the old culprits coming on and admitting they got it wrong.

Where's Joe Ironside these days?

UTB

Our rate of producing players is as good as most academies. For every Walker you will have 40 rejects. That is how it works.

Man City have spent £100 million on their academy. How many players have they brought into the first team....none. Chelsea?

 

[alcoblade]

Thats my point, if we introduce one player a season its progress. At least you kind of agreed regards Brookes and Chapman. The next one maybe Semple introduced later next season over Wilson or Wright. Eventually Whiteman over Basham... Then over the next 2 seasons we have introduced 3 home grown players. Players that CW has highlighted already.

If you think i want 3 or 4 in right this minute then you must think i am more stupid than i sound.

Fair enough. Perhaps Wilder sees them as something different to each other, not competing.

I don't know enough about either player to get into that detail. I do share your hope to see more of Brooks - if he's as good as we think. But I'm happy to follow Wilder's judgement on that, which brings us back to where we started.

 

[alcoblade]

Our rate of producing players is as good as most academies. For every Walker you will have 40 rejects. That is how it works.

Man City have spent £100 million on their academy. How many players have they brought into the first team....none. Chelsea?

Walker - a decade almost! You're missing that point. History is just that, but the most recent is the most relevant. The academy structure has shifted, and not in our favour. George Long is 6 years? That takes some doing.

Man City is a perfect example of money wasted, quite the opposite of a justification. The diffrence being that they've got it to waste.

UTB

 

[Ricky]

Maybe the academy hasn't produced enough decent players while we've been in L1, but it's also been disappointing from various managers who've not given certain players a chance - it's understandable with the pressure of the job, but not entirely excusable. For example, if Ben Whiteman had been introduced as a regular when it was obvious Hammond was past it, he would've had a proper run in the side and we could now have a good first team player and an asset. Still think there's a good chance for him though.

 

[Bladeinleeds]

The probelm is, the examples get further and further away. Maguire came through when we were in the Chamionship, six years ago.

Since then, we've had only George Long, who's been a millstone, not an asset. One first team regular in 6 years, and a really poor one at that.

It's a truly atrocious record given the shit they should be replacing. We're cemeted in the third division, and it still can't produce better.

So, is this because poor little Louis Reed and the like don't get the chance they "deserve"? Well, given that most of these desperate pleas are followed by a career in the Sunday league, you'd hope people would learn. But it's the same cries repeated, never the old culprits coming on and admitting they got it wrong.

Where's Joe Ironside these days?

UTB

PS shit signings suggest we should learn the lessons of making shit signings, not place more emphasis on a failed academy system. At last, Wilder seems to be demonstrating lessons learned.

As I said before you could make a case for Kennedy but for factors outside his control. And if DCL was good enough for a premier league side I cant help but feel he might well have been an asset.

We have suffered with a bloated squad and I guess that has seen the slow down of talent.

As has been mentioned if you can introduce 1 or 2 a year supplementing their development with some spells out on loan to gain experience I don't think you'd be doing a bad job. You'll never see an academy 1-11.

Agree on the shite signings I would love to see the best non league and L1/2 talent being really focused on and used to identify diamonds in the rough.

 

[alcoblade]

Maybe the academy hasn't produced enough decent players while we've been in L1, but it's also been disappointing from various managers who've not given certain players a chance - it's understandable with the pressure of the job, but not entirely excusable. For example, if Ben Whiteman had been introduced as a regular when it was obvious Hammond was past it, he would've had a proper run in the side and we could now have a good first team player and an asset. Still think there's a good chance for him though.

I've seen nothing in Whiteman if I'm honest. It smacks of the same over optimism for young talent.

That said, I'm in the minority, and I want you to be right, not me.

UTB

 

[alcoblade]

As I said before you could make a case for Kennedy but for factors outside his control. And if DCL was good enough for a premier league side I cant help but feel he might well have been an asset.

We have suffered with a bloated squad and I guess that has seen the slow down of talent.

As has been mentioned if you can introduce 1 or 2 a year supplementing their development with some spells out on loan to gain experience I don't think you'd be doing a bad job. You'll never see an academy 1-11.

Agree on the shite signings I would love to see the best non league and L1/2 talent being really focused on and used to identify diamonds in the rough.

DCL is nowhere near good enough for a Premiership side. He's a mere punt with pocket change. He won't get near the first team anytime soon. (Said it now )

 

[Bladeinleeds]

DCL is nowhere near good enough for a Premiership side. He's a mere punt with pocket change. He won't get near the first team anytime soon. (Said it now )

I agree with you on that if i'm honest. Remember saying that I doubted he'd ever score in a competitive game for us., he does have the physically attributes to make a name for himself tho with the right coaching and stuff.

Do like the look of Whiteman tho even if it is only in comparison to Hammond last year. Got a beauty against the pigs the other day too.