Embarrassing

[LJBlade]

No of course not but surely there is an issue when we are left so badly exposed so early in the game....Two games running and we concede both times having to chase the game. It seems the tactical set up and shape is an issue for teams to break and score so easily and so early don't you think?

Two games running? Does the Watford game not count?

Which players in particular would you suggest were too high up the pitch when we were in an attacking position?

What you’re talking about is player in game decisions. It’s got very little to do with tactics. You’ve clearly no idea.

I’ll ask again, what tactics would you suggest we use that meant we’d be impervious to attack?

 

[ton-up]

That’s got absolutely nothing to do with a team being ‘bang in form’. You asked when do we get to be that way, I’ve said the league table proves that it’s already happened.

Do you really think an extra couple of days rest for a few of our players makes that much difference? Sometimes it isn’t about the fitness of the players.

No, you are correct, lets just leave this one onto the manager today.

 

[ton-up]

Two games running? Does the Watford game not count?

Which players in particular would you suggest were too high up the pitch when we were in an attacking position?

What you’re talking about is player in game decisions. It’s got very little to do with tactics. You’ve clearly no idea.

Watch the footage?

 

[LJBlade]

Watch the footage?

Or, you could answer the question?

 

[ton-up]

Or, you could answer the question seeing as you’ve chosen to quote me?

What question? ask the manger and players what questions that the fans are now asking? 14pt lead? boro, millwall, blackburn performances and results?

 

[Toronto Blade]

Interesting but the Spurs also rested players against us and they too lost today.

 

[Andy67]

The game would have been ours if Doyle and macatee came on at half time. They did a job on Norwood which stopped him bringing Bogle and Lowe into the game instead they spent large parts of the second half unable to push out. Fleck should have been pulled as he isn’t fit enough, always stretching to get the ball and flat footed. As soon as macca comes on 3 fouls and 3 or 4 corners. I am impressed with Osborn recently but if I was chasing a game I wouldn’t swap Bogle and Lowe for Osborn and Baldock. Macatee and Doyle’s record speaks itself recently so when bnorwood isn’t In the game pull him.

 

[ton-up]

The game would have been ours if Doyle and macatee came on at half time. They did a job on Norwood which stopped him bringing Bogle and Lowe into the game instead they spent large parts of the second half unable to push out. Fleck should have been pulled as he isn’t fit enough, always stretching to get the ball and flat footed. As soon as macca comes on 3 fouls and 3 or 4 corners. I am impressed with Osborn recently but if I was chasing a game I wouldn’t swap Bogle and Lowe for Osborn and Baldock. Macatee and Doyle’s record speaks itself recently so when bnorwood isn’t In the game pull him.

Ask the manger, about the gap, I am sure that he will tell you that all is ok. Last season a free hit, this season a 14pt lead at one stage, now see what happens with the rest of the season, and he should be judged on that.

 

[Andy67]

Ask the manger, about the gap, I am sure that he will tell you that all is ok. Last season a free hit, this season a 14pt lead at one stage, now see what happens with the rest of the season, and he should be judged on that.

Don’t know what you mean

 

[HVR]

Ask the manger, about the gap, I am sure that he will tell you that all is ok. Last season a free hit, this season a 14pt lead at one stage, now see what happens with the rest of the season, and he should be judged on that.

OK, but it sems like you are judging him now, before the end of the season?

 

[Jan Age]

Happy clappers bang on about results…

People who actually take an objective view could see months ago that poor performances would eventually be punished and we’ve been piss poor for 90% of all games.

There is no intensity, no hunger etc. and tactics are generally poor… relying on individual moments to win games.

The first 1/3 of the season there was a sniff of an excuse with injuries and then payers returning but not now.

We needed fresh faces in Jan especially in midfield and up front - so the board should also take some responsibility.

If anyone thinks we will get rid of PH when we don’t go up then you’re wrong … he was brought in for this exact type of scenario ..

A yes man… a nodding dog… a 5 year contract…

 

[Greystones Blade]

Was even worse...
View attachment 155102

It was 2 defenders against 4 attackers that became 3 defenders against 5 attackers. I read the Blackburn 2-1 cup win report v Leicester and it said that Blackburn could have won 5-0 with five fast breakaways. You’d think our coaching staff would have emphasised to the players to not over-attack. Or maybe the players got over-excited with the attack chance and forgot their instructions?

 

[Deadbat]

Two games running? Does the Watford game not count?

Which players in particular would you suggest were too high up the pitch when we were in an attacking position?

What you’re talking about is player in game decisions. It’s got very little to do with tactics. You’ve clearly no idea.

I’ll ask again, what tactics would you suggest we use that meant we’d be impervious to attack?

Two away games running if we are trying to be pedantic.

I would suggest the whole team was too far up but particular the wing backs. I was at Millwall and you could see from a general play position our shape and tactics were horrific as if they got possession they had a break of 3 on 3 essentially with no cover.

Yesterday was slightly different in that it came from us being on the attack amd right in their box but there is no way we should be countered so early on in a game from 80 yards.

It happened again at Millwall - from a free kick near then end when they had 4 on 3 essentially when they won the header.

Boro they were 3 on 2 after the foul was not givem but still showed the structure was all wrong.

We seemed to get it back somewhat v Watford/Spurs but the kamikaze-basketball set up we saw again yesterday. To concede such a goal again is worrying.

The defensive set up is naive and is happening quite a lot recently. If its in game decisions then it's odd it's happening so much and surely he needs to change some personnel who are showing such ill discipline?

Sadly the structure of us currently means we are exposed. Of course teams can attack us/counter and as you say we are not impervious to being attacked. My major concern is we are so open and quite often amd early when we need to get a foothold in games.

Millwall could have been 3 up after 15 mins at the Den due to the defensive structure and lack of protection from midfield.

We will agree to disagree but I think we have seen it happening too much to think it's just always a good opposition goal or a few individual players not doing their job.

 

[LJBlade]

Two away games running if we are trying to be pedantic.

I would suggest the whole team was too far up but particular the wing backs. I was at Millwall and you could see from a general play position our shape and tactics were horrific as if they got possession they had a break of 3 on 3 essentially with no cover.

Yesterday was slightly different in that it came from us being on the attack amd right in their box but there is no way we should be countered so early on in a game from 80 yards.

It happened again at Millwall - from a free kick near then end when they had 4 on 3 essentially when they won the header.

Boro they were 3 on 2 after the foul was not givem but still showed the structure was all wrong.

We seemed to get it back somewhat v Watford/Spurs but the kamikaze-basketball set up we saw again yesterday. To concede such a goal again is worrying.

The defensive set up is naive and is happening quite a lot recently. If its in game decisions then it's odd it's happening so much and surely he needs to change some personnel who are showing such ill discipline?

Sadly the structure of us currently means we are exposed. Of course teams can attack us/counter and as you say we are not impervious to being attacked. My major concern is we are so open and quite often amd early when we need to get a foothold in games.

Millwall could have been 3 up after 15 mins at the Den due to the defensive structure and lack of protection from midfield.

We will agree to disagree but I think we have seen it happening too much to think it's just always a good opposition goal or a few individual players not doing their job.

I wasn’t being pedantic. I was going off what you said.

What you’re describing isn’t any different to how we’ve played pretty much since Wilder came in. Now all of a sudden it’s ‘naive’. We’ve always been susceptible to the counter attack.

“We seemed to get it back against Watford/Spurs”. We played the exact same way in those games, possibly less so against Spurs, but that was as a result of us attacking less frequently.

I’ll ask again, where would you expect the wing backs to be when we’re in an attacking position?

Had we played more defensively yesterday and managed a 0-0 draw do you think the reaction towards Heckingbottom’s approach to the game would have been positive or negative?

 

[Russtheblade]

Were the wing backs any higher than you’d expect them to be? Being wing backs they should automatically be quite far forward when we’re attacking.

I doubt the tactic wasn’t for us to have a 3 v 3 against us.

Incidentally, are there any tactics that sees a team completely impervious to an attack from the opposition?

Bogle rarely got over the halfway line yesterday, time after time we had no width going forward,hence lots of ball down the middle where McB got no change out of Carter, pre requisites for a wing back are energy,athleticism,pace,crossing ability & tackling,I'm afraid Max Lowe falls short

Were the wing backs any higher than you’d expect them to be? Being wing backs they should automatically be quite far forward when we’re attacking.

I doubt the tactic wasn’t for us to have a 3 v 3 against us.

Incidentally, are there any tactics that sees a team completely impervious to an attack from the opposition?

 

[blade too long]

This Friday night will be a test for Blackburn.away at in form Stoke 5 wins in and won 5-1 at Sunderland on Saturday

See how they like away games at a ream in form

 

[Frank the tank]

.

 

[jono_t2000]

I wasn’t being pedantic. I was going off what you said.

What you’re describing isn’t any different to how we’ve played pretty much since Wilder came in. Now all of a sudden it’s ‘naive’. We’ve always been susceptible to the counter attack.

“We seemed to get it back against Watford/Spurs”. We played the exact same way in those games, possibly less so against Spurs, but that was as a result of us attacking less frequently.

I’ll ask again, where would you expect the wing backs to be when we’re in an attacking position?

Had we played more defensively yesterday and managed a 0-0 draw do you think the reaction towards Heckingbottom’s approach to the game would have been positive or negative?

A lot of people on here (almost all?) were saying a draw against Blackburn would be a great result... so yes people would have overall been net positive imho.

 

[LJBlade]

A lot of people on here (almost all?) were saying a draw against Blackburn would be a great result... so yes people would have overall been net positive imho.

A lot of people were also absolutely hammering Heckingbottom for what they perceived to be a negative approach to away games at the start of the season. Were they not?

 

[Nicolaus_Copernicus]

Two away games running if we are trying to be pedantic.

I would suggest the whole team was too far up but particular the wing backs. I was at Millwall and you could see from a general play position our shape and tactics were horrific as if they got possession they had a break of 3 on 3 essentially with no cover.

Yesterday was slightly different in that it came from us being on the attack amd right in their box but there is no way we should be countered so early on in a game from 80 yards.

It happened again at Millwall - from a free kick near then end when they had 4 on 3 essentially when they won the header.

Boro they were 3 on 2 after the foul was not givem but still showed the structure was all wrong.

We seemed to get it back somewhat v Watford/Spurs but the kamikaze-basketball set up we saw again yesterday. To concede such a goal again is worrying.

The defensive set up is naive and is happening quite a lot recently. If its in game decisions then it's odd it's happening so much and surely he needs to change some personnel who are showing such ill discipline?

Sadly the structure of us currently means we are exposed. Of course teams can attack us/counter and as you say we are not impervious to being attacked. My major concern is we are so open and quite often amd early when we need to get a foothold in games.

Millwall could have been 3 up after 15 mins at the Den due to the defensive structure and lack of protection from midfield.

We will agree to disagree but I think we have seen it happening too much to think it's just always a good opposition goal or a few individual players not doing their job.

Pace gets you out of defensive mishaps (see K. Walker esq.), and allows you to take risks. We ain't got none, so to consistently expose ourselves to risks and the ensuing attacking break is criminal/naive.

 

[Nicolaus_Copernicus]

A lot of people were also absolutely hammering Heckingbottom for what they perceived to be a negative approach to away games at the start of the season. Were they not?

Forget about season's start, since the post WC restart, it should've been about managing games to achieve promotion. We only really needed to win two or three away matches (Rotherham, Reading & Huddersfield), with the remaining points coming from home victories and away draws. We should've sensibly set out to get 5 points from Rotherham, Millwall & Blackburn. We've got 1, are now in the shit and are faced with needing to get no less than 10 points from the next 4 games, and beat Sunderland and Birmingham away as well.

 

[LJBlade]

Forget about season's start, since the post WC restart, it should've been about managing games to achieve promotion. We only really needed to win a couple of away matches, with the remaining points coming from home victories and away draws. We should've sensibly set out to get 5 points from Rotherham, Millwall & Blackburn. We've got 1.

Yep, I’m sure those having a go at Heckingbottom for approaching away games in a negative manner would have been as reasonable as you suggest.

 

[Nicolaus_Copernicus]

Yep, I’m sure those having a go at Heckingbottom for approaching away games in a negative manner would have been as reasonable as you suggest.

*apologies, I was editing my post when you quoted it.

 

[Deadbat]

I wasn’t being pedantic. I was going off what you said.

What you’re describing isn’t any different to how we’ve played pretty much since Wilder came in. Now all of a sudden it’s ‘naive’. We’ve always been susceptible to the counter attack.

“We seemed to get it back against Watford/Spurs”. We played the exact same way in those games, possibly less so against Spurs, but that was as a result of us attacking less frequently.

I’ll ask again, where would you expect the wing backs to be when we’re in an attacking position?

Had we played more defensively yesterday and managed a 0-0 draw do you think the reaction towards Heckingbottom’s approach to the game would have been positive or negative? think we played exactly the same way v Watford/Spurs?? Even Hecky say we changed it v Watford and did not press as much and left one man further back and not pressing. He said we changed our tactics.

You really think we played exactly the same way v Watford/Spurs as the other recent games? Even Hecky said we changed the approach v Watford and said after we did not press as much and had one less higher up when they had it.

The way we played under Wilder was not like this as we had more solid defenders and likes of Bash, Fleck were 3-4 years younger and could run more. Even with the attacking approach, other than Villa away and Man Utd home, I can't recall us having games where we were so wide open as we are to start games currently. We prided ourselves in that promotion campaign if being hard to beat. Indeed post Xmas Wilder changed the side and we were much more conservative and ground out many more wins with likes of Duffy not playing as much.

As I say if you don't think teams breaking us and being 2 on 3 or 3 on 3 after 5 minutes in away games (more than once) is not naive in our set up then what is it? Its happened in open play and set play routines.

As for wing backs positions I don't want my left wing back playing inside forward and the most advanced man as happened twice when Millwall broke...we did not even have the ball on one of them! The second they scored from. If the wing backs are that high as Lowe and Bogle were again you can't have Egan in the box attacking too as happened at Blackburn.

It's not even about negative or positive approach that early in the game. It's bring pragmatic. If United play with structure and compete then if they lose/draw fair enough but we have been a bit of a ragged mess in the last two away games.

As I say we can agree to disagree but if we continue to set up as we are poor results away will continue I feel.

 

[Frank the tank]

Forget about season's start, since the post WC restart, it should've been about managing games to achieve promotion. We only really needed to win two or three away matches (Rotherham, Reading & Huddersfield), with the remaining points coming from home victories and away draws. We should've sensibly set out to get 5 points from Rotherham, Millwall & Blackburn. We've got 1, are now in the shit and are faced with needing to get no less than 10 points from the next 4 games, and beat Sunderland and Birmingham away as well.

Funny that because when we were breaking records for consecutive wins
The general mood on here was suicidal that we were only playing well in patches
Can only imagine the panty wetting if we had drawn any of those games
Maybe the players read those comments coupled with the lack of atmosphere in the stadium and thought fuck it why should we care if the fans don't let's just turn up and go through the motions like they do

 

[LJBlade]

You really think we played exactly the same way v Watford/Spurs as the other recent games? Even Hecky said we changed the approach v Watford and said after we did not press as much and had one less higher up when they had it.

The way we played under Wilder was not like this as we had more solid defenders and likes of Bash, Fleck were 3-4 years younger and could run more. Even with the attacking approach, other than Villa away and Man Utd home, I can't recall us having games where we were so wide open as we are to start games currently. We prided ourselves in that promotion campaign if being hard to beat. Indeed post Xmas Wilder changed the side and we were much more conservative and ground out many more wins with likes of Duffy not playing as much.

As I say if you don't think teams breaking us and being 2 on 3 or 3 on 3 after 5 minutes in away games (more than once) is not naive in our set up then what is it? Its happened in open play and set play routines.

As for wing backs positions I don't want my left wing back playing inside forward and the most advanced man as happened twice when Millwall broke...we did not even have the ball on one of them! The second they scored from. If the wing backs are that high as Lowe and Bogle were again you can't have Egan in the box attacking too as happened at Blackburn.

It's not even about negative or positive approach that early in the game. It's bring pragmatic. If United play with structure and compete then if they lose/draw fair enough but we have been a bit of a ragged mess in the last two away games.

As I say we can agree to disagree but if we continue to set up as we are poor results away will continue I feel.

“When they had it”. We were talking about when we were attacking. Did Hecky say that we attacked with fewer players against Watford?

We played exactly the same way under Wilder. The age of Fleck or Basham doesn’t prove differently.

I’m arguing that being on the receiving end of a 3v2 isn’t part of the tactics. You seem to be arguing differently.

Egan was in the box against Blackburn because we’d just put in a long throw.

We weren’t discussing the position of the wing backs against Millwall, we were talking about the Blackburn game.

When we went on the attack, which lead to their counter, did we leave ourselves with a numerical disadvantage at the back?

 

[Deadbat]

As I say I don't think we played exactly the same under Wilder. I've said above also how we reigned it in also when we had to in the 2nd half of the promotion season to grind out results by being more cautious/pragmatic.

I also don't think we played the same v Watford/Spurs as the other games in how we have set up. Which Hecky agrees with.

Your last question is answered by Bergen Blade image which shows we had a numerical disadvabtage. The Millwall opener was the same,as was the third.

I highlighted the Millwall game as it had similiar concerns. It's relevant as if it happened once I'd be less concerned.

Yes I think being countered 3 on 2 is part of tactics especially when it happens more than once. You disagree. We will agree to differ and move on.

 

[Rodders]

That undercurrent with Heckingbottom, it’s never gone away has it?

 

[Chingo]

A lot of people on here (almost all?) were saying a draw against Blackburn would be a great result... so yes people would have overall been net positive imho.

If bash had finished an easier chance than they scored from we would have got a point , fine lines fine lines

 

[LJBlade]

As I say I don't think we played exactly the same under Wilder. I've said above also how we reigned it in also when we had to in the 2nd half of the promotion season to grind out results by being more cautious/pragmatic.

I also don't think we played the same v Watford/Spurs as the other games in how we have set up. Which Hecky agrees with.

Your last question is answered by Bergen Blade image which shows we had a numerical disadvabtage. The Millwall opener was the same,as was the third.

I highlighted the Millwall game as it had similiar concerns. It's relevant as if it happened once I'd be less concerned.

Yes I think being countered 3 on 2 is part of tactics especially when it happens more than once. You disagree. We will agree to differ and move on.

Weird you didn’t reply directly.

Anyway, Hecky agreed that we didn’t play the same way against Watford in an attacking sense? What did he say exactly? I’d be interested to see that.

The image provided by Bergen doesn’t really show the reality of our set up when Blackburn started their attack. Watch the footage back again. When we lose the ball there are six United players in the box and all eleven Blackburn players. I can show you the image to prove this of you like. So, considering that what do you feel we could have done differently from a tactic stand point. Assuming you aren’t of the belief that our management team told the players not to bother chasing the players back.