Wing backs forced back

[Bergen Blade]

I just don't see Mousset being able to hold a ball up. I'd rather have McGoldrick in there with Burke going beyond when we need an outlet.

I'd sacrifice that ability and try to play him through, focusing a lot more on counter attacking in a set up that helps us compete again.

 

[BanderSerge]

We've recruited with a very specific system in mind so we don't have many options for changing things round - we have no wingers. We also have to compensate for our lack of quality by, for example, playing with 3 centre backs.

I think we have two options at a basic level - be more defensive (probably 4-5-1) or go more attacking and try and push teams back a bit. The best I can manage is a 5-2-3 with the front 3 consisting of Burke, Mousset (both playing slightly wider than usual) and someone to link things up and sometimes drop into a 10 (so probably McGoldrick). The 2 central midfielders would just sit in and protect the defence. I'd play Baldock and Osborn at full back and ask them to get forward if possible.

If nothing else, at least the opposition's full backs would think twice about bombing forward all the time.

It's incredibly difficult. Our budget means we don't have suitable back-ups in a lot of positions and it also means we have little tactical flexibility. This was highlighted on Sunday when we went 4-4-2 with Basham and Fleck as the wide midfielders. I really don't think we helped ourselves by picking such a slow side though.

We have 2 lightening quick wingers in Burke and Bogle.

 

[Wards]

Agree it's difficult. Tinkering may also result in worse results, heavier defeats and what then? But it's probably worth trying something and I'd be interested in your suggestion, though I'd also worry that better teams would still make us struggle to cover enough space in midfield. And would Mousset cope with some sort of defensive work load?

Personally I'd try to address the problem for now by sacrificing a striker and playing 5-4-1, which is a variant of your 5-2-3. I'd try Burke and Osborn as wide players and let them play as in a regular midfield four when we defend. In the S'oton screen shot it would be Burke who would go to close down Bertrand. Berge would stay in a more solid partnership with Ampadu and the fourth midfielder (Osborn) may make Walker-Peters think twice about drifting so high and wide. Consequently Stevens wouldn't have to be so wide and we'd generally appear more compact and better equipped to chase and press as a group. If a player slipped up it would be more likely that another teammate would be nearer to compensate. With a pacey striker S'oton's centre halves may be a bit more worried as well.

View attachment 100481

On paper it looks negative, but we're at the stage now where I think we must try to knock the losing habit out of the players and become harder to beat.

I like this in principle - however I’d prefer to sacrifice one of your defenders for an extra midfielder, allowing Burke a little bit more freedom to support someone up top. I see us as so easy to play through and adding another body in there could go a long way. That said I don’t think we’ve got a CB aside from Egan that’s comfortable in a back 4.

 

[Bergen Blade]

I like this in principle - however I’d prefer to sacrifice one of your defenders for an extra midfielder, allowing Burke a little bit more freedom to support someone up top. I see us as so easy to play through and adding another body in there could go a long way. That said I don’t think we’ve got a CB aside from Egan that’s comfortable in a back 4.

That's it, we've struggled defending in our box with three centre halves, how would two do?

 

[Wards]

That's it, we've struggled defending in our box with three centre halves, how would two do?

Can’t deny that they have struggled with three but I think any defence would struggle given the regularity that they’re being pulled apart and put under pressure. I’d also like to think that by employing Baldock and Stevens as ‘regular’ style full backs they’d be able to defend a bit narrower.

 

[Isaw Joeshaw]

That's it, we've struggled defending in our box with three centre halves, how would two do?

Whilst I respect and agree with many of your observations , I believe it’s that kind of thinking that has got us into the situation we are in .

The reality is that a solid back four supported by a competent holding midfielder can be a more effective defensive unit than the system we use . In our system, once we get the ball over the half way line ( not very often these days ) , the two wing backs are expected to abandon their defensive duties and supplement the attack since it is short on numbers .

When this happens , two of the centre backs move wide into the full back position leaving the lone centre back ( Egan ) badly exposed and susceptible to the quick counter attack ( see Villa , Leicester et al )

On the other hand , if the opposition play it wide , our wide central defenders are often exposed two against one trying to keep things under control until the wing backs charge 70 yards back down the pitch to try to support them .

With a successfully operated back four and holding midfielder both these scenarios are nullified but , even more importantly , it provides the opportunity to include more possession based and attack minded players further up the pitch who ( whisper it quietly ) , might even lead to us scoring a few goals .

Finally , I don’t subscribe for one moment to the ridiculous idea that we only have players who can operate in a 3-5-2 formation , nor do I believe that all the other clubs in the PL have a group of defenders who are far superior to ours .

I could name at least 10 clubs who turn out defenders week after week who are nowhere near as good as some that we have . The difference is that they don’t have to spend 80 out of the 90 minutes defending and play for clubs that have not forgotten that scoring goals is the best way to win football matches .

 

[COYB1988]

Egan, ampadu, jagielka have all played in a back 2..and tbh I think basham would be fine in a back 2, as a fullback on the right behind Baldock or Burke to give that extra cover or in defensive midfield or central midfield. He's extremely versatile I would say the same for ampadu but believe basham is the better cb of the 2 and ampadu is the better midfielder

 

[COYB1988]

When JOC is back he would be fine in a back 2 ofc, I feel like our system is actually a detriment to recruitment Chris is looking for centre backs for what they contribute attacking instead of being big, strong good defenders, I doubt bash will last much longer in that role a year or 2 at the most probably then we have to train another cb to overlap which isn't going to be easy lol

 

[Bladeinleeds]

Agree it's difficult. Tinkering may also result in worse results, heavier defeats and what then? But it's probably worth trying something and I'd be interested in your suggestion, though I'd also worry that better teams would still make us struggle to cover enough space in midfield. And would Mousset cope with some sort of defensive work load?

Personally I'd try to address the problem for now by sacrificing a striker and playing 5-4-1, which is a variant of your 5-2-3. I'd try Burke and Osborn as wide players and let them play as in a regular midfield four when we defend. In the S'oton screen shot it would be Burke who would go to close down Bertrand. Berge would stay in a more solid partnership with Ampadu and the fourth midfielder (Osborn) may make Walker-Peters think twice about drifting so high and wide. Consequently Stevens wouldn't have to be so wide and we'd generally appear more compact and better equipped to chase and press as a group. If a player slipped up it would be more likely that another teammate would be nearer to compensate. With a pacey striker S'oton's centre halves may be a bit more worried as well.

View attachment 100481

On paper it looks negative, but we're at the stage now where I think we must try to knock the losing habit out of the players and become harder to beat.

I feel like the only way we can knock the losing habit is to try and win a game. Without JOC and hendo we look incapable of keeping a clean sheet.

We pose no threat at the moment, 3 non penalty goals in 15 games tells you that. We have to be able to score more than once to win a game.

wilder needs to try something else but I can’t for the life of me think a more defensive formation would lead to positive results.

 

[blades78]

We do need to improve defensively, but one of the reasons we are conceding more is that we cannot keep hold of the ball. Last season we were matching teams possession wise and usually having around 50%, this season its around 30%.

 

[hidesbehindapseudonym]

The squad looks completely shot. I can't really see where a goal comes from - but certainly for me the wingbacks aren't involved, they're too busy looking busy. Maybe Burke and Brewster upfront because McBurnie and Billy are certainly not the answer.

 

[blade too long]

Wing backs are not being forced back

We are just playing devoid of confidence of breaking forward

We've gone from having the most touches in opposition boxes to a team that turns round and goes back to Ramsdale. Too often we get a corner or free kick and its the opposition who ends up having a shot at our goal

We've gone from cavalier devil may care risk takers to fear riddled over defensive scaredy cats

 

[FMBlade1]

'The Liverpool full-backs aren't providing as much for the forwards because teams have worked out how to play against them.'

Jurgen Klopp: Liverpool loss to Burnley 'massive punch in the face' - BBC Sport

If Liverpool are having issues with this, no wonder we do also!

 

[The Vicar]

Ex-Liverpool defender Mark Lawrenson on BBC Radio 5 Live's Football Daily podcast: "There were too many occasions for Liverpool where they had an extra touch, their crossing into the box wasn't particularly good, the passing generally wasn't good.

"The Liverpool full-backs aren't providing as much for the forwards because teams have worked out how to play against them. Also, the service from midfield without Fabinho and Jordan Henderson in there isn't quite the same.

"The problem for Liverpool is they are not creating enough clear-cut chances. Why? I honestly don't know. Jurgen Klopp and his coaches will know there is something missing from this team at the moment."

Sound familiar?

 

[Rudders]

Ex-Liverpool defender Mark Lawrenson on BBC Radio 5 Live's Football Daily podcast: "There were too many occasions for Liverpool where they had an extra touch, their crossing into the box wasn't particularly good, the passing generally wasn't good.

"The Liverpool full-backs aren't providing as much for the forwards because teams have worked out how to play against them. Also, the service from midfield without Fabinho and Jordan Henderson in there isn't quite the same.

"The problem for Liverpool is they are not creating enough clear-cut chances. Why? I honestly don't know. Jurgen Klopp and his coaches will know there is something missing from this team at the moment."

Sound familiar?

It was weird just how bad they were last night. It was very much like how we play going forward, slow build up play out wide, cross hitting the first man almost continually and a packed well organised Burnley defence with Pope dominant in the air. And they got worse after they took Origi off!

 

[Bath Blade]

It was weird just how bad they were last night. It was very much like how we play going forward, slow build up play out wide, cross hitting the first man almost continually and a packed well organised Burnley defence with Pope dominant in the air. And they got worse after they took Origi off!

The number of crosses they were putting into the box which were defended easily by Burnley’s 6ft4 centre halves or keeper made me think they were crying out for the Chief up front, or even McBurnie.

 

[Bergen Blade]

Ex-Liverpool defender Mark Lawrenson on BBC Radio 5 Live's Football Daily podcast: "There were too many occasions for Liverpool where they had an extra touch, their crossing into the box wasn't particularly good, the passing generally wasn't good.

"The Liverpool full-backs aren't providing as much for the forwards because teams have worked out how to play against them. Also, the service from midfield without Fabinho and Jordan Henderson in there isn't quite the same.

"The problem for Liverpool is they are not creating enough clear-cut chances. Why? I honestly don't know. Jurgen Klopp and his coaches will know there is something missing from this team at the moment."

Sound familiar?

The level of detail involved in analysis and match preparation means it is difficult even for teams with the best players. Teams study what the opposition do, what other teams have done against them and come up with game plans that are effective. Eventually teams will go backwards if they are not evolving. Maybe the success of last season have masked the need for certain changes for both Liverpool and us.