Will any of our central midfielders ever score again?

[The Bohemian]

I know I go on about this topic a lot so you'll have to bear with me.

It may be simple minded of me, but to me playing a five man midfield with one poor sod on his own up front equals only one thing: less goals, because you only have one guy up front to do the scoring job, and if you have 2 half decent centre halves they can mark him out of the game, particularly if he's slow (Higdon) or small (McNulty). Even a good player can be nullified - look at Murphy on Saturday.

But I am constantly told that this doesn't matter, because the goals we lose will be compensated for by pressing midfielders drifting into the box. Well, yes, that might happen in the Premier League, but those players don't exist lower down.

However, Clough has since day 1 this season been wedded to 1 man up front and a central midfield 3 unless he gets desperate (when, funnily enough, we do commit men forward and sometimes score). That's all very well if you have midfielders that pop in the occasional goal.

We don't.

Here are the stats: the number of games that people we've had playing in the central midfield 3 have gone since they last scored a goal in the league for us:

Holt - never scored (played one game)
Coutts - never scored (played 2 games)
Ben Davies - 3 games (last goal v Swindon 20 September 2014), and you can argue he's more a wide man
Adams - never scored (played 4 games)
K Wallace - never scored (played 4 games)
J Wallace - never scored (played 10 games). I am amazed that he's actually managed so many games
Cuvilier - never scored (played 10 games)
Scougall - 10 games (last goal v Crewe 25 October 2014)
Reed - never scored (played 13 games)
Baxter -16 games (last goal v Preston 23 August 2014)
Doyle - 30 games (last goal v Swindon 29 March 2014)

This is appalling. I am at a loss to understand why we persist with 3 men in the middle when none of them are a goal threat, bar Davies (who has been out for months) and Baxter, who scored when he was playing further forward than he is now.

If Clough had gone out of his way to collect a bunch of players who were no goal threat collectively, it would have been harder to do a better job. This is poor squad building.

It wouldn't be so bad if they brought other things to the table, but these players rarely create anything (save Reed, recently) and as a bunch are smaller than many Under 16 teams on average.

thank goodness for JCR and Murphy, and McNulty (when he's selected). Without them we'd be in the bottom 6.

Our problem with scoring enough is about strikers not systems:

In 2011/12 we played with two up top and scored 92 league goals - 2 per game, with our strikers chipping in with 44 (48%) One scored 29!!!
In 2012/13 we played with two up top and scored 56 league goals - 1.22 per game, with our strikers chipping in with 30 (54%)
In 2013/14 with nobody up top for the first 13 games we scored 48 league goals - 1.04 per game, with our striker chipping in with 16 (33%)
In 2014/15 with one up top we have scored 39 league goals to date - 1.23 per game, with our strikers chipping in with 9 (28%)

Good strikers are hard to come by. Cloughie clearly set his stall out to get O Grady in before the season and failed, presumably due to Brighton paying Championship wages. His back up plan lacks the mobility to play alone and getting him on the pitch at all seems increasingly difficult, which left him with Porter and McNulty.

McNulty has to play off someone and I agree with those who suggest we should have played with two strikers at home against weaker teams - but given injuries and suspensions, who would the two have been? How often have Higdon and McNulty been available to play together?

The current squad is one good striker and a proper centre half short of challenging for the Top 2. The centre half should have been sorted and is down to Cloughie; the striker is more excusable but patience will wear ever thinner unless a solution is found soon.

 

[sheffielder]

According to some on here, Coady wasn't the guy and were happy when he signed for Huddersfield. The only player who is currently fit who could make similar runs is Flo.

 

[GRUMPY BLADE]

Thanks Rudders, for confirming something I had only perceived and suspected.
If it is true and I've no reason to doubt you, I'm pretty appalled at how amateurish he is.

You're spot on with marginal gains. He'd be fecking useless with Sir Dave Brailsford at team Sky / British cycling,.
It might explain the surge Derby got when they dumped the serial failure.

I heard Tony Pullis talking about going to visit Athletico Bibao and Bayer Leverkusen, when he manager at Stoke
Why the hell did he go there, you might be thinking?.
He had identified both those clubs as being from a small working class background town who had 'over-achieved' in their respective leagues.
He thought Stoke were exactly the same.
So he went to see their teams training methods to see if there might be any snippet at all, he could pick up to apply at Stoke.
A brilliant example of marginal gains, the thought process, examination and lengths the manager applies to his job.
No wonder he has done so well.

Perhaps a trip to toy town to see how they have left us behind?

 

[groveblade]

Thanks Rudders, for confirming something I had only perceived and suspected.
If it is true and I've no reason to doubt you, I'm pretty appalled at how amateurish he is.

You're spot on with marginal gains. He'd be fecking useless with Sir Dave Brailsford at team Sky / British cycling,.
It might explain the surge Derby got when they dumped the serial failure.

I heard Tony Pullis talking about going to visit Athletico Bibao and Bayer Leverkusen, when he manager at Stoke
Why the hell did he go there, you might be thinking?.
He had identified both those clubs as being from a small working class background town who had 'over-achieved' in their respective leagues.
He thought Stoke were exactly the same.
So he went to see their teams training methods to see if there might be any snippet at all, he could pick up to apply at Stoke.
A brilliant example of marginal gains, the thought process, examination and lengths the manager applies to his job.
No wonder he has done so well.

Good post re Pulis but IMO the similarities regarding Stoke and Athletic Bilbao end with the fact they both play in red and white stripes!

Athletic are traditionally the 3rd biggest team in Spain (although overtaken by Valencia, Sevilla recently) - until quite recently they had won more Copas del Rey than any other Spanish team. The city itself - especially when you consider 'Gran Bilbao' is easily in the top 10 of Spanish cities and - very significantly - Athletic are the pride of the Basque people/nation..

For my money Athletic de Bilbao are more comparable to Everton or Villa in terms of size and tradition than Stoke City..

I don't know anything about Bayer Leverkusen though!!

 

[Davie Blade]

I think the thing with Bilbao is they only play Basque players, so they've only a pool of a 1 million or so guys to chose from.Never been relegated either, which by any standard it is an amazing achievement. Also factor in how big Spain is add in it's South American connections that is open to all the other liga sides, they massively over achieve.Birmingham-Villa and Liverpool -Everton are far bigger towns. A fairer comparison would be Cardiff and only S Wales folk allowed to play.
As for Leverkusen, well think of a one industry town, Bayer the chemical giant. Small place of only about 150,000 or so sandwiched on the Rhine between the giant towns of Duseldorf and Cologne. Let's be kind and say it looks better at night! Where as Stoke,looks...... errr well i don't need to go further with that analogy
To be fair Leverkusen and Stoke do have some amazing countryside outside of their towns.

Personally I think Pullis choice was bang on..
I cant think, given his criteria, of a better choice for Germany or Spain.

 

[super_pig]

I want to know when Brayford is going to score!!!!! All that money and he hasn't scored in two games.

Waste of Money

tbf swiss he's a defender.. apples with apples and all that

 

[BusheyBlade]

I reckon Baxter will get one tonight

 

[rompodebailey]

I reckon baxter will get a scruffy goal

 

[Russ]

Done n dusted ??

 

[FTPE]

I know I go on about this topic a lot so you'll have to bear with me.

It may be simple minded of me, but to me playing a five man midfield with one poor sod on his own up front equals only one thing: less goals, because you only have one guy up front to do the scoring job, and if you have 2 half decent centre halves they can mark him out of the game, particularly if he's slow (Higdon) or small (McNulty). Even a good player can be nullified - look at Murphy on Saturday.

But I am constantly told that this doesn't matter, because the goals we lose will be compensated for by pressing midfielders drifting into the box. Well, yes, that might happen in the Premier League, but those players don't exist lower down.

However, Clough has since day 1 this season been wedded to 1 man up front and a central midfield 3 unless he gets desperate (when, funnily enough, we do commit men forward and sometimes score). That's all very well if you have midfielders that pop in the occasional goal.

We don't.

Here are the stats: the number of games that people we've had playing in the central midfield 3 have gone since they last scored a goal in the league for us:

Holt - never scored (played one game)
Coutts - never scored (played 2 games)
Ben Davies - 3 games (last goal v Swindon 20 September 2014), and you can argue he's more a wide man
Adams - never scored (played 4 games)
K Wallace - never scored (played 4 games)
J Wallace - never scored (played 10 games). I am amazed that he's actually managed so many games
Cuvilier - never scored (played 10 games)
Scougall - 10 games (last goal v Crewe 25 October 2014)
Reed - never scored (played 13 games)
Baxter -16 games (last goal v Preston 23 August 2014)
Doyle - 30 games (last goal v Swindon 29 March 2014)

This is appalling. I am at a loss to understand why we persist with 3 men in the middle when none of them are a goal threat, bar Davies (who has been out for months) and Baxter, who scored when he was playing further forward than he is now.

If Clough had gone out of his way to collect a bunch of players who were no goal threat collectively, it would have been harder to do a better job. This is poor squad building.

It wouldn't be so bad if they brought other things to the table, but these players rarely create anything (save Reed, recently) and as a bunch are smaller than many Under 16 teams on average.

thank goodness for JCR and Murphy, and McNulty (when he's selected). Without them we'd be in the bottom 6.

Quick say something else negative...
Like will any of our players ever score a hat trick again...

 

[rompodebailey]

And then 2 come in one game

 

[mattbianco1]

Oh the irony

 

[Groucho Blade]

And one for a defender...

 

[Esablade]

I'm going to stick me neck out and go with 'yes' on this one.

For 'ever' is a long time!

Called it...

 

[mattbianco1]

Is anybody keeping a tally chart?

 

[mattbianco1]

Since this thread was started (feb 9th). The following players have scored from midfield:

Baxter 7
Doyle 1
Holt 4

38% of the 31 goals.

Quick Revolution start a "will we ever get promoted" thread... We need you!

 

[Revolution]

Yes, thank goodness for Holt. Hopefully he'll get the nod for the playoffs (assuming we get there) ahead of the likes of Reed and Scougall.

The figure is of course distorted by the fact that Baxter's 7 goals include 5 or 6 pens. Still, someone's got to put them away.

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

Since this thread was started (feb 9th). The following players have scored from midfield:

Baxter 7
Doyle 1
Holt 4

38% of the 31 goals.

Quick Revolution start a "will we ever get promoted" thread... We need you!

I know he wasn't in the original list but Murph has 5 in that period so that's over 50 %

 

[Revolution]

I know he wasn't in the original list but Murph has 5 in that period so that's over 50 %

He's not a central midfielder - that's who I was focussing on. Goals from the flanks have not been a problem. Murphy has done really well and Davies and JCR have chipped in too.

 

[Bladebri]

Let's hope defence, midfield and forwards all chip in during the playoffs 

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

Goals throughout the team have improved since the end of Jan, Davies / Done have helped that in terms of scoring goals and also giving defences something to think about freeing up space for midfielders.

 

[Lord Bos of Eckington.]

Goals throughout the team have improved since the end of Jan, Davies / Done have helped that in terms of scoring goals and also giving defences something to think about freeing up space for midfielders.

Not bothered who scores as long as we do , and its in the oppostions net and not our own. . And we score more than the opposition . Gut feeling 2-2 tonight , but dependant which team turns up and who plays in this interchangeable squad we have to cover all eventualities ( except CB ).

We are getting there .


UTB

 

[Bergen Blade]

Players making runs into the box is vital in a 4-5-1 formation. It doesn't always have to be perfect attacks either.

For Holt's goal at Oldham Coutts did well to get a low cross in, but it would most likely have been a routine clearance by their centre half if he hadn't been put under pressure.

Using high tech, professional football analysis tool (MS Paint) as well as expert skill, I have managed to remove our two runners in central midfield from the situation to show what an easy clearance it actually was:



The ball is rolling towards the centre half and all he's got to do is kick it away.

But the tigerish duo of Holt and Scougall succeeds in making him cock up his clearance:




The ball falls to Holt who fires in. Well done to both of our midfield runners! The goal can be seen 1:07 into this video:




We haven't been great at getting men into the box, but in Holt and Scougall we have two central midfielders who have the fitness and desire to do it. Hopefully there are more goals to come from them.

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

Using high tech, professional football analysis tool (MS Paint) as well as expert skill, I have managed to remove our two runners in central midfield from the situation to show what an easy clearance it actually was

If only we could have MS Painted someone out a couple of years ago, hang on...................

 

[Jehovah]

If only we could have MS Painted someone out a couple of years ago, hang on...................

View attachment 11311

Never really noticed before how much he is leaning back. No wonder it ended up in the 7th dimension.

 

[Balham]

Never really noticed before how much he is leaning back. No wonder it ended up in the 7th dimension.

Jim Chimmerney editing out the Huddersfield keeper doesn't make a difference; you'd need to put the crossbar 30 feet up.

I said to Mrs Balham as soon as Smithies scored that Simonsen looked like he'd rather be anywhere than taking that penalty. He panicked and went into goal kick mode - his default setting as a keeper is to get the ball as high and as far as possible which is exactly what he did.

 

[Jehovah]

Jim Chimmerney editing out the Huddersfield keeper doesn't make a difference; you'd need to put the crossbar 30 feet up.

I said to Mrs Balham as soon as Smithies scored that Simonsen looked like he'd rather be anywhere than taking that penalty. He panicked and went into goal kick mode - his default setting as a keeper is to get the ball as high and as far as possible which is exactly what he did.

Yes, I went from foolishly believing we were going to win (when Hudds missed their third consecutive penalty) to knowing it was all over as Simmo stepped up. I still remember being sat outside Wembley against the wall in disbelief as to what had just occured. The bastard blades.