Wilder or Warnock

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PeterNdlovu081 said:
Warnock got us promoted to the Premier League.

That's the end of the conversation.

Until Wilder matches or surpasses that achievement there's no debate to be had.
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The question is vague though, what exactly does 'best' mean?

It seems like the reason for the conclusion you come to is that Warnock won promotion to the Premier League. So, that would indicate that, for you, league position is the sole criterion you use to determine who is 'best'.

Under this criteria, a manager who is handed a $500 million budget in the Championship and gets promoted as Champions is better than a manager who finished 2nd with a budget of peanuts. Would you agree with that conclusion? Or would you care to refine your criteria for who is 'best'? Is league position literally all that matters, or is there more to it than that?
I'm genuinely interested in your reasoning.
 



LJBlade said:
What’s Warnocks achievements in comparison with Wilders? As I understand it they both have 1 promotion with United each.
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In Wilder’s case he took one of, if not the, biggest team in the third tier up as champions.

In Warnock’s case he took a team that wasn’t expected to challenge the top two up automatically with games to spare. As an aside, all of his promotions to the Premier League were arguably with teams that were not expected to be contenders for the top two.

The 2016/17 season is unforgettable, the football was a joy to watch, and the manner that Wilder did it in made the achievement more than it is on paper frankly. But the promotion in 2005/06 is the bigger achievement when considered in isolation.
 
I think a key factor thats been missed to swing this debate one way or the other is which era has or will achieve the most kidney punches?



:)
 
PeterNdlovu081 said:
So you're only criteria is what division the club was in when a manager left?

Come on now, you're making yourself look silly.
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What’s your criteria then?

I notice you still haven’t answered the question. If it helps, Wilder currently has us 30 places higher than the season before he took over and Warnock left us 8 places higher.
 
LJBlade said:
What’s your criteria then?

I notice you still haven’t answered the question. If it helps, Wilder currently has us 30 places higher than the season before he took over and Warnock left us 8 places higher.
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When warnock took over weren't we in the relegation zone with Heath?
 
tomtheblade said:
The question is vague though, what exactly does 'best' mean?

It seems like the reason for the conclusion you come to is that Warnock won promotion to the Premier League. So, that would indicate that, for you, league position is the sole criterion you use to determine who is 'best'.

Under this criteria, a manager who is handed a $500 million budget in the Championship and gets promoted as Champions is better than a manager who finished 2nd with a budget of peanuts. Would you agree with that conclusion? Or would you care to refine your criteria for who is 'best'? Is league position literally all that matters, or is there more to it than that?
I'm genuinely interested in your reasoning.
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But that's a hypothetical question.

Warnock wasn't handed a £500m transfer budget.

Warnock took over a woeful United team that was heading for the third tier.

Three full seasons later he had completely turned the club around and we were challenging for automatic promotion.
 
LJBlade said:
What’s your criteria then?

I notice you still haven’t answered the question. If it helps, Wilder currently has us 30 places higher than the season before he took over and Warnock left us 8 places higher.
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What question do you want answering?
 
PeterNdlovu081 said:
But that's a hypothetical question.

Warnock wasn't handed a £500m transfer budget.

Warnock took over a woeful United team that was heading for the third tier.

Three full seasons later he had completely turned the club around and we were challenging for automatic promotion.
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The point of the question was to determine your criteria for 'best'

If you want to make a logical, coherent point then you need to establish how you're coming to your conclusion, as Loughborough did above, rather than bluntly stating it and saying there's no debate.

I'm not even saying that I disagree with your opinion, just that it helps to show your working, no matter what side you come down on :)
 
LoughboroBlade said:
In Wilder’s case he took one of, if not the, biggest team in the third tier up as champions.

In Warnock’s case he took a team that wasn’t expected to challenge the top two up automatically with games to spare. As an aside, all of his promotions to the Premier League were arguably with teams that were not expected to be contenders for the top two.

The 2016/17 season is unforgettable, the football was a joy to watch, and the manner that Wilder did it in made the achievement more than it is on paper frankly. But the promotion in 2005/06 is the bigger achievement when considered in isolation.
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Whether we were the biggest in league 1 or not is irrelevant. We were a league 1 team at that time and we had been for several seasons. When Wilder took us up nobody expected him to do it and he did so with us winning the League with 100 points.

The pedant who liked your post is quick to point out that we when lose games we do so because we deserve to, no matter how much we dominate them, but he seems to think that us winking promotion from League 1 wasn’t as much of an achievement, presumably because we shouldn’t have been a League 1 team in the first place.
 
tomtheblade said:
The point of the question was to determine your criteria for 'best'

If you want to make a logical, coherent point then you need to establish how you're coming to your conclusion, as Loughborough did above, rather than bluntly stating it and saying there's no debate.

I'm not even saying that I disagree with your opinion, just that it helps to show your working, no matter what side you come down on :)
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My answer is that there's no perfect answer.

You obviously agree with me so I think you should just stop playing devil's advocate.

:)
 
LJBlade said:
The season before Warnock came in we finished 8th, that’s what I meant
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Yeah don't worry, i understand where you're coming from.

I just think that full context is required. Warnock wasn't taking over a team in 8th place, he was taking over a team which was struggling badly.
 



LJBlade said:
We were every season in league 1. That didn’t seem to mean too much.

Who on here thought we’d win the league. There weren’t many
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So rather than “nobody” what you meant was “nobody, excluding fans of other clubs or the bookies”?
 
tomtheblade said:
Yeah don't worry, i understand where you're coming from.

I just think that full context is required. Warnock wasn't taking over a team in 8th place, he was taking over a team which was struggling badly.
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He took over a half decent team which was being badly managed, there is a difference
 
I have always, and always will, miss Neil Warnocks is awful football like a fucking hole in the head.

After 7 years of ‘building’, this was what turned out on the last day of the season v Wigan:

Kenny

Jagielka. Morgan. Kilgallon. Geary

Gillespie. Montgomery Tonge. S.Quinn

Stead. Nade


Long throw ins into the box, cheap midfielders and even cheaper strikers. After 7 years the best they could come up with was a team that couldn’t even stay up by playing awful football.

1 relegation season from the premiership, playing awful football, I don’t see that as much of an achievement. Not as if he started off in league 1 either.


Insult to even compare warnock to wilder imo
 
LoughboroBlade said:
So rather than “nobody” what you meant was “nobody, excluding fans of other clubs or the bookies”?
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When I said ‘nobody’ I meant us Sheffield United fans. Nobody else gives a shit or knows a shit about us. We were a well established League 1 team when Wilder took over, I think some people are forgetting that.
 
LJBlade said:
So moving up 8 league positions is better than 30?
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When Warnock left us we had just been relegated from the Premier League, had money to spend and were favourites for automatic promotion the following season.

If a competent manager had been appointed instead of Bryan Robson we would have been a shoo-in to go straight back up.

This season under Wilder we're hoping to get in the play offs having finished an ultimately disappointing 10th last season.

So in conclusion we were in a better position when Warnock left us than we are now.

Having answered all this I still don't know why you're fixating on it or what it has to do with the OP.
 
LJBlade said:
When I said ‘nobody’ I meant us Sheffield United fans. Nobody else gives a shit or knows a shit about us. We were a well established League 1 team when Wilder took over, I think some people are forgetting that.
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2016/17 – no United fan expected us to win the League 1 title, but the wider footballing world were not surprised (be that out of ignorance of our situation or whatever).

2005/06 – no United fan expected us to be promoted to the Premier League, nor did the wider footballing world.

If you step back for a minute from considering the personalities of the people in charge or the type of football played, what would you view as a greater achievement: Huddersfield’s League 1 playoff win in 2012, or their Championship playoff win in 2017?
 
PeterNdlovu081 said:
When Warnock left us we had just been relegated from the Premier League, had money to spend and were favourites for automatic promotion the following season.

If a competent manager had been appointed instead of Bryan Robson we would have been a shoo-in to go straight back up.

This season under Wilder we're hoping to get in the play offs having finished an ultimately disappointing 10th last season.

So in conclusion we were in a better position when Warnock left us than we are now.

Having answered all this I still don't know why you're fixating on it or what it has to do with the OP.
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You don’t seem to be considering where we were when they took over? Warnock took over an 8th place Championship team and left when we were 2nd bottom of the Premiership.

Wilder took over when we were 11th in League 1 and we’re currently 5th in the Championship.

The OP is about how good each manager has been for us. The best way to judge that is how far they’ve managed to improve us.

This doesn’t even take into consideration that Warnock spent considerably more than Wilder has done so far.
 
LoughboroBlade said:
2016/17 – no United fan expected us to win the League 1 title, but the wider footballing world were not surprised (be that out of ignorance of our situation or whatever).

2005/06 – no United fan expected us to be promoted to the Premier League, nor did the wider footballing world.

If you step back for a minute from considering the personalities of the people in charge or the type of football played, what would you view as a greater achievement: Huddersfield’s League 1 playoff win in 2012, or their Championship playoff win in 2017?
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Obviously the Championship win in 2017 but you’re talking about the club as a whole there, this situation is different.

If a manager had taken Huddersfield from League 2 up to the Championship but a different manager had taken them from the Championship to the Premiership would you say that the 2nd one had performed better for the club, of course you wouldn’t.
 
PeterNdlovu081 said:
My answer is that there's no perfect answer.

You obviously agree with me so I think you should just stop playing devil's advocate.

:)
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Or maybe i'm just trying to get this thread to my prediction of 10 pages ;)

Honestly, I'm 50/50 on it, because my definition of 'best' would take into account a number of factors, including the style of football being played, the relative budgets of the managers vs the rest of the league, and the potential of the team. In my opinion the current side plays more attractive football, and is competing at the top end of the table with the resources of a club which would normally expect to finish much lower.

Put it this way.. I'm fairly confident that if we can keep hold of our current manager, at some point in the not-so-distant future there really will be 'no debate' to this question.
 
LJBlade said:
Obviously the Championship win in 2017 but you’re talking about the club as a whole there, this situation is different.

If a manager had taken Huddersfield from League 2 up to the Championship but a different manager had taken them from the Championship to the Premiership would you say that the 2nd one had performed better for the club, of course you wouldn’t.
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Sorry, but I would. It’s a much bigger achievement to take up a team not expected to be promoted from the Championship than to take what would have been the biggest club in League 2 and then subsequently one of the biggest clubs in League 1, up to the Championship.

It’s about relative expectation level. You probably think I’m undervaluing Wilder’s achievements – I can assure you I’m not. But I do believe you are undervaluing the promotion to the Premier League in 2006, with a set of players nobody expected to form a promotion team.

Think we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one and leave it at that.
 



LJBlade said:
You don’t seem to be considering where we were when they took over? Warnock took over an 8th place Championship team and left when we were 2nd bottom of the Premiership.
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Wrong and wrong.

When Warnock was appointed we were 21st in the Championship.

When Warnock left we had just finished 18th in the Premier League.
 
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