Wilder not 'appeh......

[Bert]

I've often suspected it might have been Dave Kitson.

It is him

 

[1danewhitehouse]

think mccabe will share the disappointment in some cases , hes sanctioned the spending otherwise we would have had bids turned down
some of those we know we enquired about were in the million plus categories so the money will still be there in January and for higher wages on decent loans in a fortnight
everything isnt perfect or wed be 4 places higher , but 5th says its not as cataclysmically bad as some try and make out and shows it is a top half budget ,even a top 6 budget a la huddersfield wouldnt you say

No, it's definitely not a top half budget at all. Look at our spending, likely wage bill, cost of squad etc. against

1. Wolves
2. Boro
3. Norwich
4. Pigs
5. Bristol
6. Leeds
7. Fulham
8. Reading
9. Derby
10. Brentford.
11. Forest.
12. Birmingham
13. QPR
14. Cardiff
15. Sunderland
16. Hull

We're competing financially in a mini-league with Burton, Barnsley, Bolton, Millwall, Preston and Ipswich. Far from a top half budget. Bidding a couple of million for a player that's worth easily £5 million in today's market (Coady) does little to change that.

 

[Scooter_mcgavin]

There's a lot on here hammering McCabe, but it does genuinely look like they've supported Wilder and tried to give him his targets.

The one thing that spoils McCabe is his uncontrollable mouth which gets him into trouble.

Saying things like '1 or 2 special signings' does absolutely nothing but get the fans hopes up.

 

[blade too long]

No, it's definitely not a top half budget at all. Look at our spending, likely wage bill, cost of squad etc. against

1. Wolves
2. Boro
3. Norwich
4. Pigs
5. Bristol
6. Leeds
7. Fulham
8. Reading
9. Derby
10. Brentford.
11. Forest.
12. Birmingham
13. QPR
14. Cardiff
15. Sunderland
16. Hull

We're competing financially in a mini-league with Burton, Barnsley, Bolton, Millwall, Preston and Ipswich. Far from a top half budget. Bidding a couple of million for a player that's worth easily £5 million in today's market (Coady) does little to change that.

once again your equating everything about money on transfers , we will be paying reasonable wages , thats why we aint blown the 5m from walker
its not in mccabes pockets its in the players Id bet our wage bill doubles minimum this season
when people put this together they might understand the workings here more
wednesday payed out huge money for fletcher rhodes winnal forestiritup
look what its brought them failure and utter disruption now and ousted Winnal already
financial clout got Villa and 10 of the last 15 clubs relegated from the prem with big big money no where
only 1 club per year with parachute millions gets back on average over the prem years

the teams ethic and work rate still wins more promotions than just cash
thats why brighton and huddersfield took 66 per cent of the promotion places despite 10 or more clubs having bigger budgets

 

[SouthEssexBlade]

But they're not really pushing the boat out to obtain maximum benefit for THEIR client.
Imperfect as they are. agents are out to get the best deal for one individual.
If clubs get fucked that's not the players problem and nor should it be.
(Anyone who can be convinced to pay £162m for a footballer deserves to be fucked)

Whilst ever the level of the deal negotiated dictates the level of payment to the agent, then the deal is indeed negotiated for the benefit of one individual, the agent. It's open to exploitation and bad deals for a player that makes a quick killing for the agent.

A PFA representative, as used by James Milner, Paul Scholes and a few others is there negotiating a deal for the player. The outcome of that deal benefits the player, the PFA rep has no personal incentive to demand more and more whether it benefits the player or not. Beats me why players would pay twice for these services, as Scholes always said why should I pay money to an agent, when I can keep it and still negotiate a good deal (mercenary git!)

Get rid of the % payment to agents, agree a flat fee payment for any transfer negotiation. Agent numbers will plummet.

 

[blade too long]

There's a lot on here hammering McCabe, but it does genuinely look like they've supported Wilder and tried to give him his targets.

The one thing that spoils McCabe is his uncontrollable mouth which gets him into trouble.

Saying things like '1 or 2 special signings' does absolutely nothing but get the fans hopes up.

to be fair he was hoping to get them in to show his willingness to fund CW
he will be gutted they aint happened

 

[NotFallowfieldBlade]

No, it's definitely not a top half budget at all. Look at our spending, likely wage bill, cost of squad etc. against

1. Wolves
2. Boro
3. Norwich
4. Pigs
5. Bristol
6. Leeds
7. Fulham
8. Reading
9. Derby
10. Brentford.
11. Forest.
12. Birmingham
13. QPR
14. Cardiff
15. Sunderland
16. Hull

We're competing financially in a mini-league with Burton, Barnsley, Bolton, Millwall, Preston and Ipswich. Far from a top half budget. Bidding a couple of million for a player that's worth easily £5 million in today's market (Coady) does little to change that.

Exactly either McCabe needs to stump up or do the good thing and look for the right person to invest or takeover.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

once again your equating everything about money on transfers , we will be paying reasonable wages , thats why we aint blown the 5m from walker
its not in mccabes pockets its in the players Id bet our wage bill doubles minimum this season
when people put this together they might understand the workings here more
wednesday payed out huge money for fletcher rhodes winnal forestiritup
look what its brought them failure and utter disruption now and ousted Winnal already
financial clout got Villa and 10 of the last 15 clubs relegated from the prem with big big money no where
only 1 club per year with parachute millions gets back on average over the prem years

the teams ethic and work rate still wins more promotions than just cash
thats why brighton and huddersfield took 66 per cent of the promotion places despite 10 or more clubs having bigger budgets

You seem to have moved the goalposts quite a bit here. We were talking about a top half budget or not. It's not. But we have a very good manager who might get us in the top half in spite of that.

Of course cash alone doesn't do it. But it gives you an advantage. Newcastle won the league largely because they were able to get the likes of Gayle, Ritchie, Murphy etc. I can pretty much guarantee that the club that wins the championship this season will have a far more expensively assembled squad than ours. It won't be us, Bolton, Millwall, Barnsley, Burton, Preston etc. It'll be someone like Boro, Wolves, Villa, Leeds or Cardiff (who haven't spent ridiculous amounts but still a lot more than us). Like I've said before, I understand why we're not spending mega-bucks. It's the pretence that we will when ST sales come around that disappoint me.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Exactly either McCabe needs to stump up or do the good thing and look for the right person to invest or takeover.

He is allegedly looking for said person. But in the meantime, he should probably hold off on the billy big bollocks talk about backing for the manager if he's not able to do it.

 

[Revolution]

He used to play for us

2 of the people whose stories make up the Secret Footballer books used to play for us.

 

[Razor1967]

An

We've gone for players with offers that have been rejected by their clubs because they were not sufficient to tempt them to sell

These deals wouldn't have even got as far as the players agent having to do anything because they were rejected out of hand.

WUHDP

 

[itsinyerblood]

Exactly either McCabe needs to stump up or do the good thing and look for the right person to invest or takeover.

And therein lies the answer to your question.....the right person! To ensure that the person who takes over has the club's best interests at heart, which doesn't simply mean lining the pockets of Kev and the Prince, it also means whether they're capable of subsiding the ambitions of our manager. We do very well to compete amongst far wealthier clubs and owners so I would expect a new owner to be able to lift everyone's expectations by offering Wilder the type of budgets that until now he's only dreamt about. I'd still like to see us capture a player or two that costs very little, but by allowing Wilder to have access to larger budgets we'll also be able to compete for players that Wilder knows will enhance our chances of success. UTMB!

 

[Sean Thornton]

An

WUHDP

Football Agent 2017

 

[Jehovah]

Anyone who's read Ian wrights book gets a nice inside view on agents.

 

[mosbolad]

With agents apparently - in his interview said that we couldnt have done any more and that certain people alluded to agents were playing games that stopped us getting in another 3 players .

The game is bent when agents effectively decide who moves and who doesnt!!

Agents (or player representatives as they are now called) surely do not get money for their player staying put. It is in their interests for the move to go through so they get paid. Of course the player has the ultimate say on whether he moves or not.

Clearly Wilder dislikes agents/player representative for messing up proposed deals. But interestingly and ironically Wilder employs an agent/representative to agree his own contract.

"But, following a positive round of talks with the 49-year-old and his representative,"

http://www.thestar.co.uk/sport/foot...on-to-offer-chris-wilder-a-new-deal-1-8611290

 

[UnitedBlade]

Agents (or player representatives as they are now called) surely do not get money for their player staying put. It is in their interests for the move to go through so they get paid. Of course the player has the ultimate say on whether he moves or not.

Clearly Wilder dislikes agents/player representative for messing up proposed deals. But interestingly and ironically Wilder employs an agent/representative to agree his own contract.

"But, following a positive round of talks with the 49-year-old and his representative,"

http://www.thestar.co.uk/sport/foot...on-to-offer-chris-wilder-a-new-deal-1-8611290

Do you think Chris's agent (and his fee) was an issue on whether he signed his new contract ? Seemed to have been conducted with a minimum of fuss.

Chris's interview today said both players wanted to come to us and play. Do you think the agent's demands (possibly their fees) had anything to do with the deals collapsing?

Chris ended his interview by saying he'd happily do an interview with Cookson about agents and what's gone down so we might find out.

Can't see us doing business with this Roberto de Fanti again any time soon. Wilder was angry, you could tell. De Fanti probably doesn't care if he gets his money now or in January but have his money, he will. Sinclair plays u23 football until then. I doubt that was his aim given the fuss made about his move from Liverpool to play football.

 

[mosbolad]

Do you think Chris's agent (and his fee) was an issue on whether he signed his new contract ? Seemed to have been conducted with a minimum of fuss.

Chris's interview today said both players wanted to come to us and play. Do you think the agent's demands (possibly their fees) had anything to do with the deals collapsing?

Chris ended his interview by saying he'd happily do an interview with Cookson about agents and what's gone down so we might find out.

Can't see us doing business with this Roberto de Fanti again any time soon. Wilder was angry, you could tell. De Fanti probably doesn't care if he gets his money now or in January but have his money, he will. Sinclair plays u23 football until then. I doubt that was his aim given the fuss made about his move from Liverpool to play football.

I agree I presume there was a minimum of fuss. Wilder is a Blade and wants to be at United and is still under contract, so United knowing this held all the cards apart from Wilder walking away which we all know he wouldn't do.

Despite all this Wilder chose to employ an agent and pay the agents fee in order to get his contract sorted. No big deal he uses an agent, most players and managers do, but it seems a little rich blaming agents for deals not going through.

Are we to assume United agreed a price with the selling club, the player wanted to come but the agent stopped it? How does this happen. There isn't 3rd party ownership. Obviously an agent can advise his player but ultimately the player has the final say. It might be in the agents financial interest to delay a move but then this would also be in the players financial interest as most agents work on a percentage.

I might be being naive here and this is a genuine question but how does an agent stop a move if both clubs and the player agree to it?

Obviously there are some unscrupulous agents. Just as their are unscrupulous solicitors, barristers, builders etc etc. I don't know all the machinations of De Fanti so cant comment on that.

 

[Worksop II]

Obviously there are some unscrupulous agents. Just as their are unscrupulous solicitors, barristers, builders etc etc.

I knew this would involve McCabe .....................

 

[Sheffsteel]

I might be being naive here and this is a genuine question but how does an agent stop a move if both clubs and the player agree to it?

Obviously there are some unscrupulous agents. Just as their are unscrupulous solicitors, barristers, builders etc etc. I don't know all the machinations of De Fanti so cant comment on that.

What if the deal is agreed with the 2 clubs and the player but before signing the papers the agent says
"Just to let you know my agents fee is £500K, pay it direct to me otherwise my player won't sign the contract". SU explain that they've already agreed to pay 50% of his salary to Watford but the agent says he has charges for the work he's done and these need paying by the buying club.

I've given this analogy on another thread.

Imagine walking in to a night club and paying the £10 entrance charge at the ticket office.
You then take the ticket to the bouncer and he asks for a further £2.
He explains that the night club don't pay him any wages, so he charges customers a fee to ensure their safety. What would you do? Just pay it or walk out and demand your £10 back?

There needs to be more transparency regards these deals.
Unfortunately when an industry is awash with money then you can bet corruption is always close by.

 

[UnitedBlade]

I agree I presume there was a minimum of fuss. Wilder is a Blade and wants to be at United and is still under contract, so United knowing this held all the cards apart from Wilder walking away which we all know he wouldn't do.

Despite all this Wilder chose to employ an agent and pay the agents fee in order to get his contract sorted. No big deal he uses an agent, most players and managers do, but it seems a little rich blaming agents for deals not going through.

Are we to assume United agreed a price with the selling club, the player wanted to come but the agent stopped it? How does this happen. There isn't 3rd party ownership. Obviously an agent can advise his player but ultimately the player has the final say. It might be in the agents financial interest to delay a move but then this would also be in the players financial interest as most agents work on a percentage.

I might be being naive here and this is a genuine question but how does an agent stop a move if both clubs and the player agree to it?

Obviously there are some unscrupulous agents. Just as their are unscrupulous solicitors, barristers, builders etc etc. I don't know all the machinations of De Fanti so cant comment on that.

I think the big flaw is the buying club pays the agent. The agent doesn't get his cut from the player, it would be better if he did. The agent may well get a standard fee for representing the player and a cut of commercial agreements but my understanding is for loans and transfers the agent is dealing with the club.

I have nothing against the principle of agents but it's easy to see how how some think about their own pockets ahead of player's interest particularly if they are young and naive.

The FL publishes agents fees at least a couple of times a year and the clubs are paying out huge sums. We will definitely be towards the bottom of that league.

I hope Chris does this interview with Cookie so we get a better understanding of what went wrong. De Fanti represents both by the way and Chris says they wanted to come.

 

[UnitedBlade]

I agree I presume there was a minimum of fuss. Wilder is a Blade and wants to be at United and is still under contract, so United knowing this held all the cards apart from Wilder walking away which we all know he wouldn't do.

Despite all this Wilder chose to employ an agent and pay the agents fee in order to get his contract sorted. No big deal he uses an agent, most players and managers do, but it seems a little rich blaming agents for deals not going through.

Are we to assume United agreed a price with the selling club, the player wanted to come but the agent stopped it? How does this happen. There isn't 3rd party ownership. Obviously an agent can advise his player but ultimately the player has the final say. It might be in the agents financial interest to delay a move but then this would also be in the players financial interest as most agents work on a percentage.

I might be being naive here and this is a genuine question but how does an agent stop a move if both clubs and the player agree to it?

Obviously there are some unscrupulous agents. Just as their are unscrupulous solicitors, barristers, builders etc etc. I don't know all the machinations of De Fanti so cant comment on that.

All explained in the article in this excellent thread.

Out of the blue agent asked for more money at 4pm. Player held at Sheffield station and then sent back later on.

https://www.s24su.com/forum/index.php?threads/interesting-insight-into-yesterday.57606/

 

[S64 Blade]

That would be what would happen in an ideal world 100%

I'm afraid, it's also as likely to happen as me seeing my hair come back, and being 10 stone again.

Nothing a bit of Alpecin shampoo and a few bags of salad won't fix Easy done.

 

[JJBlade]

Wrong. The days of players not being able to negotiate with clubs until a fee is agreed are long gone. Agents these days are approaching clubs offering their player and even inferring the fee required to get him. They are crooks....absolute scum of the earth most of them.



You do talk some crap.
I'm disappointed we haven't secured a couple of strikers but it doesn't mean I start having a paddy like a spoiled child!
All players signed are first team players, and all will have their part to play as the season pans out.
Some need work on fitness to get to the levels expected, others need to wait for their chance and take it.
How many more times do some people need an injection of sense and perspective before you leave them to be cynical sad little men?

I don't care who we sign or don't sign and am certainly not having a paddy about it

I just find Uniteds pathetic excuses funny. I had a right laugh last night

It was the agents
It was the fax machine
We tried......but
Boo hoo hoo !!!!

Only a gullible fucking idiot would believe any of it if you want the truth

 

[JJBlade]

You were predicting that we'd sell Brooks in this transfer window. That hasn't happened and you seem to have gone really quiet on that topic.

I didn't think we'd sell Brooks.
I said it wouldn't surprise me but I didn't think we'd sell him

We've got £7 million in sell on clauses you know
We don't have to sell til at least January now

 

[mosbolad]

I think the big flaw is the buying club pays the agent. The agent doesn't get his cut from the player, it would be better if he did. The agent may well get a standard fee for representing the player and a cut of commercial agreements but my understanding is for loans and transfers the agent is dealing with the club.

I have nothing against the principle of agents but it's easy to see how how some think about their own pockets ahead of player's interest particularly if they are young and naive.

The FL publishes agents fees at least a couple of times a year and the clubs are paying out huge sums. We will definitely be towards the bottom of that league.

I hope Chris does this interview with Cookie so we get a better understanding of what went wrong. De Fanti represents both by the way and Chris says they wanted to come.

The player will have a representation contract with his agent signed and lodged with the FA. It will detail the agents fees. The agent will want paying for negotiating the players wage etc. The clubs involved agree (or not) any transfer fee. The agent will want his percentage (of the players salary) usually about 5% either from the player the club or dual representation ie 2.5% from each. This will be based on the players gross earnings for the duration of the contract.

Players of course would want to come and play football but under the Wilder regime united do not pay high wages so its quite feasible that it was agreed transfer fee wise between clubs but we couldn't agree wages with the players representative.

 

[mosbolad]

What if the deal is agreed with the 2 clubs and the player but before signing the papers the agent says
"Just to let you know my agents fee is £500K, pay it direct to me otherwise my player won't sign the contract". SU explain that they've already agreed to pay 50% of his salary to Watford but the agent says he has charges for the work he's done and these need paying by the buying club.

I've given this analogy on another thread.

Imagine walking in to a night club and paying the £10 entrance charge at the ticket office.
You then take the ticket to the bouncer and he asks for a further £2.
He explains that the night club don't pay him any wages, so he charges customers a fee to ensure their safety. What would you do? Just pay it or walk out and demand your £10 back?

There needs to be more transparency regards these deals.
Unfortunately when an industry is awash with money then you can bet corruption is always close by.

The contract between the agent and the player is signed and lodged with the FA for the agent to act on the players behalf. So the agent cannot just demand £500k. If you are referring to Cole from Fleetwood, this is the amount Fleetwood originally asked before too late dropping to £200k. The agent fee is based on the salary of the player as a percentage for the duration of the contract. usually around 5%

 

[Cassius Kray]

The contract between the agent and the player is signed and lodged with the FA for the agent to act on the players behalf. So the agent cannot just demand £500k. If you are referring to Cole from Fleetwood, this is the amount Fleetwood originally asked before too late dropping to £200k. The agent fee is based on the salary of the player as a percentage for the duration of the contract. usually around 5%

He's referring to Sinclair. You should read the thread linked above, in which at 3.48 pm it's reported that "Sinclair's agent has called Shieber to say he wants more money." Were they talking wages? Seems unlikely given that this is a loan move. Even if they were, it's irrelevant - the point is that the agent unilaterally decided to up the fee at the last minute.

 

[blade too long]

You seem to have moved the goalposts quite a bit here. We were talking about a top half budget or not. It's not. But we have a very good manager who might get us in the top half in spite of that.

Of course cash alone doesn't do it. But it gives you an advantage. Newcastle won the league largely because they were able to get the likes of Gayle, Ritchie, Murphy etc. I can pretty much guarantee that the club that wins the championship this season will have a far more expensively assembled squad than ours. It won't be us, Bolton, Millwall, Barnsley, Burton, Preston etc. It'll be someone like Boro, Wolves, Villa, Leeds or Cardiff (who haven't spent ridiculous amounts but still a lot more than us). Like I've said before, I understand why we're not spending mega-bucks. It's the pretence that we will when ST sales come around that disappoint me.

why will it be them over us

Ive already said over the past decade clibs with smaller budgets have matched in number those blowing millions in going up
You cant gaurentee anyone being above us purely on what theyve spent

villa are a prime example
birmingham sending money they dont have
Cardiff got off to a flyer but arent guarenteed keeping it up
Ipswich won 4 then came unstuck

weve beaten brentford and derby who have possibly spent more than us
even barnsleys brought in a few

we should fear no one purely on the basis their players cost more than ours

be absolutely no point ever getting promoted to the prem if you take that stance

 

[mosbolad]

He's referring to Sinclair. You should read the thread linked above, in which at 3.48 pm it's reported that "Sinclair's agent has called Shieber to say he wants more money." Were they talking wages? Seems unlikely given that this is a loan move. Even if they were, it's irrelevant - the point is that the agent unilaterally decided to up the fee at the last minute.

Thanks CK. I have read it and a great read it is. Yes it does look like a loan. Obviously I really have no idea but they could have been talking wages. Say its a season loan, maybe Watford were offering him for 'free this morning' (ie paying all his wages). But now Watford want a contribution either all or a percentage of his wages. It is quite feasible that United would have to pay £10k a week to Watford so this is maybe where the £500k comes from. It just doesn't ring true that we would have to pay an agent £500k for 'arranging' a season long loan. Obviously I am only guessing and the article good as it is doesn't quite make it clear.

 

[Grizzly blade]

I don't care who we sign or don't sign and am certainly not having a paddy about it

I just find Uniteds pathetic excuses funny. I had a right laugh last night

It was the agents
It was the fax machine
We tried......but
Boo hoo hoo !!!!

Only a gullible fucking idiot would believe any of it if you want the truth

More fucking bollocks.
So I guess it's Wilder who's the one kicking out the excuses then? Or is he being a patsy again?

You have no clue about any past dealings, or those current. You clearly lack any actual knowledge or inkling of how a club works, or how football transfers work. It's just so easy to your simplistic mind I guess.

But you keep up with your agenda driven drivel....it's you that looks the idiot.