Why?

[raul]

But it's not the biggest game of the season is it? It's a midweek home fixture against a bottom four side which, if we go through the processes we've done at home all season we'll win. It's only by putting added pressure on we derail ourselves.

 

[Balham]

1st November 1983 - 5-3 (Philliskirk 2, Brazil, Morris, Edwards). That was also last time we scored a goal against them at home. Mind you, we have only played them 3 times since then

9/2/08 D0-0
28/3/10 L0-1
14/9/10 L0-4

I was wondering if I'd forgotten a win somewhere along the line but as I was only 6 weeks old last time we beat the Iron at home it's not surprising I don't remember it.

I remember this one, didn`t we pound them and yet still managed to lose 4-0????

That caused some real splits in opinion on here. It was also the turning point, in my opinion, in Gary Speed's regime. We were expertly beaten on the counter by a Scunthorpe side which had done its homework. 4-0 was incredibly harsh but equally given our defending we didn't deserve anything. Time to make amends tomorrow!

But it's not the biggest game of the season is it? It's a midweek home fixture against a bottom four side which, if we go through the processes we've done at home all season we'll win. It's only by putting added pressure on we derail ourselves.

Definitely not the biggest game of the season but at the same time, it would be good to win it.

 

[Darren]

I was wondering if I'd forgotten a win somewhere along the line but as I was only 6 weeks old last time we beat the Iron at home it's not surprising I don't remember it.


QUOTE]

Now I do feel old! I was at that game (just before my 17th birthday) and it was a bit of a cracker. Scunthorpe had Geoff Dey and Julian Broddle who United had released in the summer in their team. True to form, Dey put Scunthorpe one up, only for Philliskirk to equalise. Broddle then made it 2-1, to which Brazil equalised. Morris then finally put us ahead and we looked like we would then be easy winners. Unforttunately Scunthorpe equalised with about 15 mins left and it looked to be heading for a draw. Lucikly, Edwards made it 4-3 with a fine looping header about 5 mins from time and Philliskirk wrapped it up with a min or so to go.

 

[bladeinspaceandtime]

Thought I back up my claim. This is not the first defeat we have lost to a top 6 team, and it's not the first game we have played were we were terrible. So we're quite right to "hang out our players" since it's not the first time. If we are promoted, can we really look another team fan from this league in the eye and say we really deserve it? If we are promoted in 2nd, it will feel quite hollow since we could hardly beat the better teams in the division. In regards to nothing has changed, basically, we are still a team who bottles under pressure, we still don't have any pace, we still have the majority of players who got us relegated last season, we still don't have any money. I'm afraid that if we go up, we will come straight back down.

Are you serious or are you just baiting for a response? The league table is decided after 46 games, not just the results against whoever finishes in the top 6.

 

[Selly]

That caused some real splits in opinion on here. It was also the turning point, in my opinion, in Gary Speed's regime. We were expertly beaten on the counter by a Scunthorpe side which had done its homework. 4-0 was incredibly harsh but equally given our defending we didn't deserve anything. Time to make amends tomorrow!

And we consequently went completely defensive afterwards...

 

[oldblade]

Thought I back up my claim. This is not the first defeat we have lost to a top 6 team, and it's not the first game we have played were we were terrible. So we're quite right to "hang out our players" since it's not the first time. If we are promoted, can we really look another team fan from this league in the eye and say we really deserve it? If we are promoted in 2nd, it will feel quite hollow since we could hardly beat the better teams in the division. In regards to nothing has changed, basically, we are still a team who bottles under pressure, we still don't have any pace, we still have the majority of players who got us relegated last season, we still don't have any money. I'm afraid that if we go up, we will come straight back down.

If we finish second and get promoted we can look anyone in any division 'in the eye' as youi put it, because it will mean that over the course of the whole season we will have done better overall against all the teams in the division than all the sides below us.

Do you feel we didn't deserve promotion back to the top flight in 1989-90 season? After all our record against the top teams was pretty poor then - probably comparable to this season's: against Leeds - drew and lost, against Newcastle drew and lost, against Sunderland drew and lost, against Blackburn drew and lost, against Swindon (who in the end were disqualified) won both matches. Total of 10 points, and only two wins, both of which were against the same side.

 

[Darren]

If we finish second and get promoted we can look anyone in any division 'in the eye' as youi put it, because it will mean that over the course of the whole season we will have done better overall against all the teams in the division than all the sides below us.

Do you feel we didn't deserve promotion back to the top flight in 1989-90 season? After all our record against the top teams was pretty poor then - probably comparable to this season's: against Leeds - drew and lost, against Newcastle drew and lost, against Sunderland drew and lost, against Blackburn drew and lost, against Swindon (who in the end were disqualified) won both matches. Total of 8 points, and only two wins, both of which were against the same side.

10 points P10 W2 D4 L4.

This season, our comparable record is thus far P8 W2 D1 L5 pts 7, so slightly worse. But like I said, who cares if we get promoted.

 

[oldblade]

10 points P10 W2 D4 L4.

This season, our comparable record is thus far P8 W2 D1 L5 pts 7, so slightly worse. But like I said, who cares if we get promoted.

It's not worse against the current top 6. Carlisle are now in 6th, so we have 10 points against top 6 sides, having won 3, drawn 1 and lost 5. One away match at MK Dons still to come.

 

[Darren]

It's not worse against the current top 6. Carlisle are now in 6th, so we have 10 points against top 6 sides, having won 3, drawn 1 and lost 5. One away match at MK Dons still to come.

Ah, hadn't noticed Stevanage had fallen out of the top 6!

 

[Selly]

Ah, hadn't noticed Stevanage had fallen out of the top 6!

until they beat Hudds tonight!!!

 

[oldblade]

Ah, hadn't noticed Stevanage had fallen out of the top 6!

I'm hoping they might be back in the top six by 9-40 PM tonight! But I'm not too optimistic as they seem to have hit a bit of a blip in form and have lost their last two matches (albeit they were away matches).

 

[boo radley]

With McDonald and Doyle we had a classic partnership of one playmaker and one holding midfielder/ball winner.

We then had the option of keeping that set up, by playing Lee Williamson, a very good playmaker at this level, in central midfield. As mentioned in my last post, there were also other options available, that would have seen us maintaining some sort of playmaking/creative distribution, or attacking threat from central midfield.

We are extremely lucky to have a squad that enables us to do that, I don't think any other team in this division have such strong options for this key position.

What we chose instead was to go with two holding midfielders/ball winners, neither of whom carry an attacking threat nor is playmaking/creative distribution their natural game. We chose to change our approach, making it our priority to have a tenacious, aggressive midfield and hoping we would create from wide.

Sometimes it's enough at this level, we have good quality out wide. But McDonald finding form has added an extra dimension to our play and it has seen us finding more space and often made the opposition chase shadows. I think it's important that we acknowledge that, and try to maintain it, even if McDonald is out.

Sorry, but against Preston North End and Sheffield Wednesday, we chose to prioritise differently.

I think there is too much emphasise placed on what comes from central mid.
I would dare to suggest that most of our goals have come from wide right positions.
Lets examine this a little further: if a right back wins the ball then gives it to a central mid who then plays to the right wing how can you say that the play started in central mid ? Lowton has done some raiding on his own towards central mid, starting from right back. He has also played a great partnership with willo. If lowton wins the ball and then brings in McDonald for one pass please don't lets make out its all down to Mc Donald. Yes he has been the outlet we've been looking for but please appreciate the efforts of the rest of the team.
As a few of us have already mentioned we believe that the approach was only different for the 2nd half V wendy and not the PNE game and you seem to be missing out what other teams have planned against us. we didn't adapt well in the 2nd half against wendy and that is all.

 

[raul]

Indeed Boo, but K Mac has done for our squad what Michael Hutchence did for Kylie.

 

[oldblade]

What you say is true. But it's the quality of ball out to the flanks that enables the wide players to get a start on their markers and put a dangerous ball into the box or to have a go themselves.

 

[ZoneManWilf]

What you say is true. But it's the quality of ball out to the flanks that enables the wide players to get a start on their markers and put a dangerous ball into the box or to have a go themselves.

Absolutely.

And it's the ability of a player able to hold and control the ball for the 2-3 seconds needed for a forward or a wide player to find space. It's not just 'creativity' that's lost when we solely have a combatitive central midfield it's loss of control of the flow of play.

We as United fans are used to this because of the direct channel and wide balls we have played under Bassett/Warnock/Blackwell, a change in approach to play the ball in midfield is actually a massive change in how we watch football.

 

[oldblade]

I don't think it's any coincidence that our most effective midfield over the last few decades was that of 2002-3 when our regular midfield line up was Tonge, Brown, McCall and Ndlovu. All of those players were comfortable on the ball and could pass.

 

[super_pig]

>But it's not the biggest game of the season is it?
from a psychology standpoint i'd beg to differ
macdonald is often the outball.. especially for players in tight situations, as they know he rarely loses it.. then they can move on with confidence, knowing that if they find space he invariably finds them.. which isn't the case with pinchy's mate, which makes players reluctant to move forward.. they know the ball being lost is imminent..
boo does make one good point though.. most of our best play comes down the right which personally i'd put down to quinny's positional indiscipline (which drives me nuts TBH)

>All of those players were comfortable on the ball and could pass.
and all of them moved on

 

[Bergen Blade]

I think there is too much emphasise placed on what comes from central mid.
I would dare to suggest that most of our goals have come from wide right positions.
Lets examine this a little further: if a right back wins the ball then gives it to a central mid who then plays to the right wing how can you say that the play started in central mid ? Lowton has done some raiding on his own towards central mid, starting from right back. He has also played a great partnership with willo. If lowton wins the ball and then brings in McDonald for one pass please don't lets make out its all down to Mc Donald. Yes he has been the outlet we've been looking for but please appreciate the efforts of the rest of the team.

I have mentioned several times, also on this thread that we have good quality out wide. This includes our full backs, especially at home, and especially Lowton who I think is exceptional going forward. But let's be clear about we're discussing here, it is central midfield, our options there and what we get from those options.

I'm not saying all our goals are scored from McDonald's through balls. His playmaking - coming deep to collect the ball, holding off challenges, creating space for himself and then picking out a teammate at the exact time his movement has created an opening - these are things that McDonald has added to our game, and I'd like to see us TRY to maintain that when he's out as well. If it is your belief that Monty and Doyle is a good combination and also allows us to keep it up, then fair enough, let's agree to disagree.

 

[Grecian2000]

Indeed Boo, but K Mac has done for our squad what Michael Hutchence did for Kylie.

I resent the implication he has been shagging the entire squad up the arse (or was that just Paula?)

For what it's worth, I like the analogy a lot and agree 100%. There should be no underestimating what a fit and functioning KMac has done for the team.

 

[Kenilworth]

And we consequently went completely defensive afterwards...

I thought we were overly defensive at Boro in Speed's first game. Could have won that but we never ventured over half way.
Tactics or bottle? Speed didn't have the players to play the way he wanted but tried to shoe horn our lumps of detritus into a football team in a style he believed was the best way to do it.
Difference with DW is that he has looked at what he has, played football, added a quality ball player in midfield, and made the most of what he was dealt with.

 

[oldblade]

Yes, but remember the abuse that went Warnock's way when we signed McCall (who did not move on, he retired)? And the constant abuse and riducule that went Tonge's way before he left.

The fact is that when we have good players we often do not appreciate them anyway.

 

[super_pig]

>who did not move on, he retired
yeah i meant he moved on to other things (retired).. tongey went crap but was good that year.. anyways enough said about this

 

[oldblade]

>who did not move on, he retired
tongey went crap

Another myth.

 

[super_pig]

whatever. see other thread.

 

[Wapping Blade]

absolutely.

And it's the ability of a player able to hold and control the ball for the 2-3 seconds needed for a forward or a wide player to find space. It's not just 'creativity' that's lost when we solely have a combatitive central midfield it's loss of control of the flow of play.

We as united fans are used to this because of the direct channel and wide balls we have played under bassett/warnock/blackwell, a change in approach to play the ball in midfield is actually a massive change in how we watch football.

gerrritforrrrrrard ;-)

 

[Bergen Blade]

PlaymakingWatch

I have now seen the video of the derby. I was interested in seeing how many times United chose to find Doyle or Montgomery in central midfield, followed by them successfully finding a teammate. This happened four times over the 79 minutes they played together:

13:20 Lowton throws the ball in to Doyle. He finds Quinn with a long pass.
36:50 Evans lays it back to Doyle, who plays it back to Evans.
55:10 Lowton throws it to Doyle, gets it back.
75:44 Jean-Francois throws it to Doyle, who returns it.​

So that's the complete playmaking from central midfield in nearly a full game. Coming short for three throw ins, and one short lay off.

I think this suggests that this pairing leaves the creativity and attacking responsibility to other players. It may be enough against the poorer sides in this division, but I don't think it's a good enough solution in the long run.

 

[boo radley]

I have now seen the video of the derby. I was interested in seeing how many times United chose to find Doyle or Montgomery in central midfield, followed by them successfully finding a teammate. This happened four times over the 79 minutes they played together:

13:20 Lowton throws the ball in to Doyle. He finds Quinn with a long pass.
36:50 Evans lays it back to Doyle, who plays it back to Evans.
55:10 Lowton throws it to Doyle, gets it back.
75:44 Jean-Francois throws it to Doyle, who returns it.​

So that's the complete playmaking from central midfield in nearly a full game. Coming short for three throw ins, and one short lay off.

I think this suggests that this pairing leaves the creativity and attacking responsibility to other players. It may be enough against the poorer sides in this division, but I don't think it's a good enough solution in the long run.

I think it suggests that they were not used enough by their team mates. It may also suggest that they had poor positional sense and did not move in to the right areas. It may also suggest that the pass option to them was cut out very effectively by wendy.
I don't think anyone would see them as a long term solution and no one has suggested that. Find another K mac would be a good solution but how hard is that?

 

[Bergen Blade]

I think it suggests that they were not used enough by their team mates. It may also suggest that they had poor positional sense and did not move in to the right areas. It may also suggest that the pass option to them was cut out very effectively by wendy.

I don't think anyone would see them as a long term solution and no one has suggested that. Find another K mac would be a good solution but how hard is that?

As said, we have some decent options within the squad.

 

[Highbury_Blade]

I have now seen the video of the derby. I was interested in seeing how many times United chose to find Doyle or Montgomery in central midfield, followed by them successfully finding a teammate. This happened four times over the 79 minutes they played together:

13:20 Lowton throws the ball in to Doyle. He finds Quinn with a long pass.
36:50 Evans lays it back to Doyle, who plays it back to Evans.
55:10 Lowton throws it to Doyle, gets it back.
75:44 Jean-Francois throws it to Doyle, who returns it.​

So that's the complete playmaking from central midfield in nearly a full game. Coming short for three throw ins, and one short lay off.

I think this suggests that this pairing leaves the creativity and attacking responsibility to other players. It may be enough against the poorer sides in this division, but I don't think it's a good enough solution in the long run.

This could ignite the blue touchpaper, but how many times did they receive the ball, and NOT find a team-mate?

 

[Pinchy]

I have now seen the video of the derby. I was interested in seeing how many times United chose to find Doyle or Montgomery in central midfield, followed by them successfully finding a teammate. This happened four times over the 79 minutes they played together:

13:20 Lowton throws the ball in to Doyle. He finds Quinn with a long pass.
36:50 Evans lays it back to Doyle, who plays it back to Evans.
55:10 Lowton throws it to Doyle, gets it back.
75:44 Jean-Francois throws it to Doyle, who returns it.​

So that's the complete playmaking from central midfield in nearly a full game. Coming short for three throw ins, and one short lay off.

I think this suggests that this pairing leaves the creativity and attacking responsibility to other players. It may be enough against the poorer sides in this division, but I don't think it's a good enough solution in the long run.

So The Maestro's contribution - a big fat lonely zero,

One or two of us knew that would be the case beforehand and said so. We don't need ex-post-facto assessment to demonstrate the uncomfortable truth. He is, as I've been telling you for years, a complete liability.

Boo,

His team-mates didn't use him enough? What a classic! Just how should they have used him? Training cone? Corner flag? Boot cleaner?

He may well play tomorrow. If he does, he will give the ball away as a matter of routine; the opposition midfield will ease past him without any difficulty leaving him chasing shadows. He'll then do the familiar one-paced plod as he tries in vain to keep up with nonentities from Scunthorpe. His attempts at control will make the ball seem like a spring-loaded jelly. He will not protect the back four though he will certainly break up play!

In other words business as usual. For once, why don't you all watch what the numpty actually does, rather than what you would like to think he does? Do it soon though, he won't be here much longer, thank the Lord.

Yes, it's the usual topic. No apologies. More and more of us are saying "Enough is enough". We've had ten years of your pub football, Monty and you're paid an obscene amount to delight us with your unique brand of midfield 'play'. Go and do it elsewhere now, please. We've got a promotion campaign to complete, playing the game properly. You can't help us with that.