Why did Wilder scrap the overlapping centre backs for.......

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We don't have the players for it, maybe we might go back to it next season as we sign some new CB's.

The formation we're using this season is the same formation he used with Northampton, and Ricky Holmes used to make that team tick.
 
derfblade.3 said:
.......slow moving tediously boring football?
I know some say that we got rumbled in our second season a few years back but i would rather get a bit rumbled and see us attacking teams and having a go.
Any other reason he would abandon a free flowing attacking system?
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AlienWoodward said:
To be fair I doubt we could do it as good again without O'Connell and Basham's ability to overlap.
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This, mainly.

We haven’t had the players to do it. And neither do many squads, to be fair. How many proper centre halves can anyone think of, who could run a wing and cross a ball like Jack O’Connell?

I think the “we got found out” line is overplayed. We were beyond repair in the Prem in 2020/21 for many reasons other than “being found out” on wide overloads. Though it’s certainly the case that some (not all) oppo managers learned how to cope with it eventually. Bielsa, for example, worked out how to counter it as early as our Champ home game against the Dirties in 2018/19.

Another reason we’ve given it up is that Wilder clearly deeply resented the suggestion that this was the only way he could coach/play. His first game back in charge, last season, when he went 4 at the back, was transparently a response to that.

So, his ego was a reason for giving it up, as much as it was a reason for sticking with it beyond its sell-by date back in the day? I wouldn’t dare suggest anything so inflammatory, in today’s polarised Widler culture wars climate.

:)
 
The overlapping centre halves wasn't his idea that's why.
It was Basham and O'Connell's idea, they probably got bollocked for doing it until Wilder realised he could take all the praise for it

If it was Wilder's idea why didn't he just find another Jack O'Connell, there are plenty of decent centre halves about that could be moulded into that role

It all ended when O'Connell's career was ended. We couldn't see that ever happening could we?
 
ShockingBadBuy said:
This, mainly.

We haven’t had the players to do it. And neither do many squads, to be fair. How many proper centre halves can anyone think of, who could run a wing and cross a ball like Jack O’Connell?

I think the “we got found out” line is overplayed. We were beyond repair in the Prem in 2020/21 for many reasons other than “being found out” on wide overloads. Though it’s certainly the case that some (not all) oppo managers learned how to cope with it eventually. Bielsa, for example, worked out how to counter it as early as our Champ home game against the Dirties in 2018/19.

Another reason we’ve given it up is that Wilder clearly deeply resented the suggestion that this was the only way he could coach/play. His first game back in charge, last season, when he went 4 at the back, was transparently a response to that.

So, his ego was a reason for giving it up, as much as it was a reason for sticking with it beyond its sell-by date back in the day? I wouldn’t dare suggest anything so inflammatory, in today’s polarised Widler culture wars climate.

:)
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The way we played then was very high energy and the game has since changed for two reasons:
1) additional subs increased to 5 per game
2) more added time with games often having 5 mins end of first half and 10 second half

Both mean squads are required to be more competitive with the depth being almost two first teams. We’ve not had the resources to compete and have 2 spare overlapping centre halves on the bench.

Losing O’Connell and much later, Bash meant we’d lost the players capable of the defensive and attacking aspects

We’ve never quite replaced them, Anel was a good start but he doesn’t have the same engine
 
All of this we got found out it is bollocks we had a team of championship and leagues one players that were playing out of their skins week in week out and it just wasn't sustainable which is why they were championship and league one players, so eventually their performance levels went back their level and we dropped it wasnt tactics, wasn't wilder taking his foot off the gas, it was just the players had hit their ceiling and it wasn't sustainable
 
That method of play was the most hyper-specific tactic I've ever seen in football. To operate successfully, it needed:

  • A central defender capable of commanding a backline, being reasonably competent in the air, and a decent passer;
  • Wide centre backs on both sides, each with very high stamina, moderate dribbling ability, and positional awareness;
  • Full/wing backs with at least above average pace, good dribbling ability, good crossing ability, and both defensive and offensive positional awareness;
  • A deep lying defensive midfielder with an excellent range of passing, and some dribbling competence;
  • Central midfielders each with modest defensive abilities (i.e able to tackle, not caught out of position too much), and the intelligence and desire to find space in the box to provide added goal threat;
  • Two attackers, between them offering a combination of strength and/or pace, work rate to provide added width, and link up play between themselves and the midfield.

That is an extremely difficult combination to nail down. But for a few years, CWAK had it bang on. However, the loss of JOC was the start of a steady plummet away from that nirvana. The solid defensive base became more frail, as the back 3 lost its best asset, and replaced him with a much weaker option (no disrespect to Robinson here - it's just a fact that he's nowhere near as good as O'Connell was). That meant we were less threatening down the left, and pressed down the right more often instead. Resulting in Bash getting more fatigued, and missing more game than he usually would. So the RCB position became weaker as well.

And so because 2 of the key positions were occupied often by players unaccustomed to the role, we lost a penetration down the flanks. And because we were having to play lesser quality defenders, we became easier to penetrate for opponents at the same time. An extremely unfortunate combination.

I think the chances of striking gold like that again would be foolish to chase. Better that we look for alternative methods, rather than persist with one where we benefitted from having the exact right players at the exact right time.
 
derfblade.3 said:
.......slow moving tediously boring football?
I know some say that we got rumbled in our second season a few years back but i would rather get a bit rumbled and see us attacking teams and having a go.
Any other reason he would abandon a free flowing attacking system?
Click to expand...

I’m not sure he abandoned it. Other teams began to nullify it so there was an opportunity to vary it a bit. I may be wrong with the timeline but I think when O’Connell was seriously injured there was nobody to fill his role and it simply didn’t work with just Bash. Bash became an auxiliary winger for a time which was a successful variant.

He’s done a similar thing before though when he abandoned the floating 10 and went to the flat three in midfield. That was supposedly solid but ponderous. Done simply to avoid a perceived or expected mullaharing from the big boys.

The only excuse I have for him this season is that he really didn’t know what state his squad would be in at the start of the season so he had to devise something that wouldn’t get beaten easily and could maybe score on the break. He was lucky he had Arblaster who was the creative spark and Soutts who was a proper front foot centre back to counter the negativity of the basic line up. I mean he had a centre back at right back (Gilchrist) which caused problems throughout the first half of the season as he simply wasn’t a full back.

When Arblaster and Soutts went we suffered and it seems that he’s now instructed them to just not lose possession at all costs and to bore the opponent to death.

I could go on about Brewster etc but I’d just be boring everyone again and I really wouldn’t want to do that.
 
I would like to see us mix it up and play a few different systems. Just as our reluctance to pivot to something different during games - particularly after JOC's injury - was our weakness a few years ago, our reluctance to change things up is a problem now.

Imagine a back line of a fit Souttar (or Holding) sweeping with Anel and a prime era O'Connell (or equivalent) on the sides with Seriki and Burrows as advanced wing backs. Chuck Souza and Peck/Blaster in the middle with Hamer and O'Hare infront and Campbell up top. That would be exciting. There is a huge JOC shaped hole we've never filled though.
 

Shawy24 said:
I’m not sure he abandoned it. Other teams began to nullify it so there was an opportunity to vary it a bit. I may be wrong with the timeline but I think when O’Connell was seriously injured there was nobody to fill his role and it simply didn’t work with just Bash. Bash became an auxiliary winger for a time which was a successful variant.

He’s done a similar thing before though when he abandoned the floating 10 and went to the flat three in midfield. That was supposedly solid but ponderous. Done simply to avoid a perceived or expected mullaharing from the big boys.

The only excuse I have for him this season is that he really didn’t know what state his squad would be in at the start of the season so he had to devise something that wouldn’t get beaten easily and could maybe score on the break. He was lucky he had Arblaster who was the creative spark and Soutts who was a proper front foot centre back to counter the negativity of the basic line up. I mean he had a centre back at right back (Gilchrist) which caused problems throughout the first half of the season as he simply wasn’t a full back.

When Arblaster and Soutts went we suffered and it seems that he’s now instructed them to just not lose possession at all costs and to bore the opponent to death.

I could go on about Brewster etc but I’d just be boring everyone again and I really wouldn’t want to do that.
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I think we have had the players to play a version of the system of Wilders first spell. Of course O'Connell is virtually irreplaceable but we have 2 decent attacking wing backs we have Souza for the Norwood role and the mobility of Peck and Hamer in midfield and a few options for a front 2. Anel showed he can overlap to good effect in his first season here and even Robinson is better on the left side of a 3.We have talented players who should be able to adapt to different systems but CW has stubbornly stuck to his 'coached' system which has become more and more turgid as teams have realised how to set up against it.
I thought Wilder did well at the start of the season. The squad gelled quickly and our tactics were effective. The squad was not deep enough though but I still think he rotated the players effectively as the injuries mounted and he had less and less to choose from. We reached the January window still well in contention for a top 2 place and I expected us to really kick on.
Unfortunately we did not recruit a quality fit centre back and with more players to choose from Wilder did not seem to know his best team and tried to make the players fit the system instead of the other way round.
I was still surprised when it all crashed down in one week and unless Burnley have a similar nosedive (unlikely) we are in the play offs(almost certainly).
Ironically CW's system will then be our best chance. In the semis we will be away in the 1st leg and whoever we play will come at us and allow us to counter.
If we do reach the final again it is likely to be an open game. We do have individuals who can produce moments of quality.
Unfortunately though us Blades don't do play offs.
 
It's no big secret. See the below comment to find out this one amazing trick all managers used to defeat Wilder
 
Hecky also used it to get promoted, we didn't have the JOC replacement but Anel was excellent as the attacking RCB. We've missed out on Anel's attacking prowess and popping up in the box creating or scoring goals.
 
wak1889 said:
All of this we got found out it is bollocks we had a team of championship and leagues one players that were playing out of their skins week in week out and it just wasn't sustainable which is why they were championship and league one players, so eventually their performance levels went back their level and we dropped it wasnt tactics, wasn't wilder taking his foot off the gas, it was just the players had hit their ceiling and it wasn't sustainable
Click to expand...
Same as what has happened to Luton this year,lost kingpin Barkley and couldn’t sustain.
 
The death of the overlapping centre backs is another example of Wilder not signing a top class defender to replace a key cog in the system we had. He’s repeated the same mistake this season with Souttar and our hard to beat / barely concede approach. The same player who was never good enough, ironically being used on both occasions to fill the gap.
 
ShockingBadBuy said:
This, mainly.

We haven’t had the players to do it. And neither do many squads, to be fair. How many proper centre halves can anyone think of, who could run a wing and cross a ball like Jack O’Connell?

I think the “we got found out” line is overplayed. We were beyond repair in the Prem in 2020/21 for many reasons other than “being found out” on wide overloads. Though it’s certainly the case that some (not all) oppo managers learned how to cope with it eventually. Bielsa, for example, worked out how to counter it as early as our Champ home game against the Dirties in 2018/19.

Another reason we’ve given it up is that Wilder clearly deeply resented the suggestion that this was the only way he could coach/play. His first game back in charge, last season, when he went 4 at the back, was transparently a response to that.

So, his ego was a reason for giving it up, as much as it was a reason for sticking with it beyond its sell-by date back in the day? I wouldn’t dare suggest anything so inflammatory, in today’s polarised Widler culture wars climate.

:)
Click to expand...
Amen 🙏⚔️❤️
 
The three at the back evolved cast your mind back to when Wilder arrived playing four at the back we got run ragged conceding goals.
He went to three at the back at Gillingham gave Duffy a free role behind the strikers and brought Coutts and Freeman in from the cold.Then teams started to park the bus and the wide center half's were encouraged to go forward.It wasn't some masterclass in tactics.City and Liverpool away were the first teams that you could see they employed tactics to counter.
 
If we don't go up this season, sell Anel, let Robbo go and completely rebuild our defence into a back 5, could do something like this.

Loans and free agents, no transfer fees.

---------Dunne-Holding-C Doyle
Seriki-------------------------------------Burrows

Backup CB: H Darling, M Keane
Backup RWB: Kessler-Hayden

Loan: Callum Doyle, Kessler-Hayden
Frees: Dunne, Holding?, Darling, M Keane

Is Holding a free agent in the summer, if so I hope we sign him as he'd only be 30 next season, still decent age for a CB.

Seen enough of Callum Doyle the last 2 years to know how good he is going forward from LCB/LB, Jimmy Dunne was getting forward in our game from RB but can play CB.

If you want 2 CB's capable of reviving the overlapping CB's, I'd look at those 2, same with Kessler-Hayden at RWB to give good competition for Seriki.
 
The two most enjoyable periods watching Utd (in terms of our style of play and the entertainment factor) in my lifetime were both when we played 5 at the back.

The Wilder 2017-2020 years and the first half of 97-98.

Very entertaining football. For that reason I'll always have a soft spot for it.

I don't think it's necessarily the way to go now, although Seriki does look far more like a wing back than a full back.
 
S64 Blade said:
The death of the overlapping centre backs is another example of Wilder not signing a top class defender to replace a key cog in the system we had. He’s repeated the same mistake this season with Souttar and our hard to beat / barely concede approach. The same player who was never good enough, ironically being used on both occasions to fill the gap.
Click to expand...

To be honest, where was he likely to find another Jack O’Connell? Tremendous signing and a tragic end to a career.

Not replacing Souttar was a big mistake but again, big shoes to fill.

Cannon and Clarke make little sense.
 
derfblade.3 said:
.......slow moving tediously boring football?
I know some say that we got rumbled in our second season a few years back but i would rather get a bit rumbled and see us attacking teams and having a go.
Any other reason he would abandon a free flowing attacking system?
Click to expand...
Don't think it was a case of getting rumbled, it was more the missing clogs in the system. JOC was a massive part to that, then whatever we say about Lundstrum he was massive part of that in the Premier league the box to box and the goals, and of course Henderson in goal.

It's been done to death, we never replaced nor upgraded the players that got older / off the boil/down tools (Lundstrum) or the ones injured (or returned from loan).

If we replaced like for like, the system and formation would still have been working imo, instead we brought in brewster (not needed at the time), cheap option with robinson moved in from back up, fodderingham again moved in from back up.

We had the perfect opportunity that 2nd season to get a foothold in the EPL like Fulham, Brentford Brighton etc. As the finish we had would have opened us up to better places willing to come, instead we went cheap option and kept same players, well and truly fuccked our chance up and now it seems to be sailing further and further away to be able to do that.
 

Shadota said:
That method of play was the most hyper-specific tactic I've ever seen in football. To operate successfully, it needed:

  • A central defender capable of commanding a backline, being reasonably competent in the air, and a decent passer;
  • Wide centre backs on both sides, each with very high stamina, moderate dribbling ability, and positional awareness;
  • Full/wing backs with at least above average pace, good dribbling ability, good crossing ability, and both defensive and offensive positional awareness;
  • A deep lying defensive midfielder with an excellent range of passing, and some dribbling competence;
  • Central midfielders each with modest defensive abilities (i.e able to tackle, not caught out of position too much), and the intelligence and desire to find space in the box to provide added goal threat;
  • Two attackers, between them offering a combination of strength and/or pace, work rate to provide added width, and link up play between themselves and the midfield.

That is an extremely difficult combination to nail down. But for a few years, CWAK had it bang on. However, the loss of JOC was the start of a steady plummet away from that nirvana. The solid defensive base became more frail, as the back 3 lost its best asset, and replaced him with a much weaker option (no disrespect to Robinson here - it's just a fact that he's nowhere near as good as O'Connell was). That meant we were less threatening down the left, and pressed down the right more often instead. Resulting in Bash getting more fatigued, and missing more game than he usually would. So the RCB position became weaker as well.

And so because 2 of the key positions were occupied often by players unaccustomed to the role, we lost a penetration down the flanks. And because we were having to play lesser quality defenders, we became easier to penetrate for opponents at the same time. An extremely unfortunate combination.

I think the chances of striking gold like that again would be foolish to chase. Better that we look for alternative methods, rather than persist with one where we benefitted from having the exact right players at the exact right time.
Click to expand...
i don’t subscribe to us being found out at all.

The truth is we were not prepared for O’Connell’s injury being so severe. In fact we’ve been quite unlucky as a club in the regard. Under Warnock Hulse getting injured also cost us. I dare say both Evans being locked up, Coutts getting injured and even Morgs getting injured all put paid to promotion campaigns or survival ones. Even on the Play offs we were without Henderson when he was our main striker.

In this case it was such a pivotal role. A bird with a broken wing, it didn’t function. We underestimated the impact and we spent money elsewhere. We prioritised Ramsdale and Brewster. Personally I’d have been happy to loan another keeper and I would have made do with the strikers we had if money was tight. We only needed one more to compliment Didzy. We should have spent that money on a) replacing O’Connell and b) fucking off Lundstram and getting a midfielder in the replace him and offloading him even for a reduced fee.

I think that would have increased our chances of staying up.
 
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