What should we do?

[itsinyerblood]

It took Warnock two and a half seasons before he'd built his first great team, for the 2002/03 season. He needed another couple of seasons which were average before he'd put together his second great team.

Different circumstances, but I think it shows that team and squad building can take time and it's not without set backs (and hopefully learning) along the way. When Clough does leave us I think he will do so with the club in a very healthy position. I'd stick with him as long as we don't get ourselves relegated, but I would expect a strong challenge for automatics next season.

As with another post who said something along these lines earlier, agree with all of that Bergen. I think the basics are there, apart from incisive forward play, at least a couple of players whose presence gives us real hope upfront (it could be that all it takes is a new signing to create that special partnership?), a dominating midfielder (oh how I hope Wallace has endured his share of injuries and will eventually emerge as the guy for this position), plus a decent central defender who can dominate.

 

[BornOnShorehamStreet]

3 for several reasons but particularly because I want to see Cloughy team on our new pitch.

I really feel it could help us a great deal

I have concerns though, grave ones in fact, but I don't want to see yet another manager sacked without a fair crack of the whip.

He has until the end of season 2015-2016 to deliver.

If not successful (promotion from the Third Division at least), by then, I think he'll walk anyway

 

[DI36O]

The problem with this statement is that the clubs you mention that finished outside the playoffs would have had different ambitions to ours and a lot lower budgets than ours.And Cotterill has done brilliant this season because he has bought very well and not had any fear of attacking teams.What i'm trying to say is don't look at what other teams and managers do just to try and suger coat our league performances so far this season under Nigel Clough.

Re ambitions for promotion, I'm not sure about that mate. Bristol City were recently a championship side who lost a playoff final, they had the likes of Sam Baldock and will have expected a lot more than midtable. Swindon almost matched us the last two seasons and MK Dons have been knocking on the door for years. The only difference is that we feel we're below our station lately so it's always now, now, now for our fans. But over the course of this season we all have the same goal.

Budgets and how we've used them, yes fair enough. Had we spent more in transfer fees up until january?

I don't mean to sugar coat performances at all but you have to show patience. Very little sustainable success has been created through use of the p45. You also have to balance your frustrations with the negative effects of sacking a manager - will players want to come here as every manager out will result in turnover of playing staff? Will managers want to come for anything other than future compensation payouts? Will we be seen as a volatile knee jerk comedy club considering how many managers we've been through recently? And most importantly will whoever we can get be any better either this year or by the end of next season?

Only one of our last dozen managers had any solid success and by the time he achieved it he was easily the longest serving of all of them.

Mind you saying that makes me think...is it just us?!

 

[pommpey]

Clough = not the problem

Quality of playing staff = the problem

People say, "He's been given squillions to spend and has brought loads and loads of players in."

I say, 'How much has he actually been given in pounds, shillings and pence?" Also, "How much has gone out of the club in player value versus that 'award' from the club itself to Clough?"

I don't doubt that Clough has a shopping list that even extends to some Premiership players, some a little long in the tooth, some out of favour and some not getting a game for some or other reason and wanting out. The only people standing in the way of him getting these players are the board. Okay, some are ridiculously expensive, some might not be. And sometimes you have to take the risk. I refuse to believe that, with £2.5m available in funds that even after signing Brayford, we couldn't find some or other established forward even in the Championship who would come to United for £500-750k. That is a game changing investment. It seems that Clough is still resigned to picking up scraps after the board decide to satiate our thirst for new blood with a crowd favourite.

When you are left with shit choices, shit ensues. We can moan about his 'puzzling formations' as much as possible, but my thought is that Clough's tactic is to contain the game, given his back four are cobbled together, we don't have a mature, established playmaker in midfield and our front line is dogshit. Murphy will definitely be out of the club if we don't go up and I don't blame him. he has waited patiently and fielded some shit both on and off the pitch but still holds our only hope of a result these days. The keepers are inconsistent and flakey, the back four a mish-mash of out of position make-dos and all over the park, the game we play screams for someone to take the match by the scruff of the neck and drag United forward. Aside from some glimmers of hope from our youngsters, who have we got capable of doing that?

Keep saying it. Stop blaming Clough. He has a shit toolbox full of busted or half sharpened instruments. These were bought for him from fucking Lidl.

pommpey

 

[Gretschblade]

I agree with much of what you say D1360. I would be happy festering in the upper half of the Championship for a while but for a club this size with our fanbase, we need to get out of this godforsaken 3rd tier now. If we don't then I see a 30% drop in attendance next season which would make life much harder in many ways. Yes there is a "NOW NOW NOW" mentality here, but for good reason.

 

[Woodwardfan]

It took Warnock two and a half seasons before he'd built his first great team, for the 2002/03 season. He needed another couple of seasons of mediocrity before he'd put together his second great team.

Different circumstances, but I think it shows that team and squad building can take time and it's not without set backs (and hopefully learning) along the way. When Clough does leave us I think he will do so with the club in a very healthy position. I'd stick with him as long as we don't get ourselves relegated, but I would expect a strong challenge for automatics next season.

I agree. Trouble is that what we see is all a bit haphazard, with little evidence of focus on the real priorities.

Added to that, surely the Derby County cast-off supply line starts to diminish and Clough's brother has to "get on his bike". I know, cliches but what's been going on? The world of football extends beyond Derby, Ilkeston, Scottish lower reaches and Blackpool. If I were Clough in some ways I'd be looking everywhere but Derby, hey ho!

Bergen, the fact you have even mentioned relegation is a sad indictment.

 

[Gretschblade]

Pommpey, aren't opinions weird? I think this squad is more than good enough to go up. For me it is definitely the game plan that is not suited to this division. I reckon a SETTLED side of; Howard, Brayford, Kennedy, Harris, Basham, Coutts, Scougal, JCR/Flynn, Done, McNulty and Murphy played in the right formation would be as good as any.

 

[Woodwardfan]

Who cares, we are rubbish. Lets just enjoy being rubbish, promotion is overrated. Last season we mixed it up a bit, flirted with relegation then the FA Cup and finally the play offs.

I like watching our team spend the most money in the league and still being rubbish. I also enjoyed spending my Saturday evening travelling home from Gillingham.

A lot of truth in that Ross if you are serious! Football in the higher reaches stinks. There's a lot to be said for watching a team in amateur football. I live in Whitby and it is a sore temptation but that means giving up on my life's obsession and my heritage.

My parents suddenly stopped going to games when they were in their late 50's and I couldn't understand why. Now I do.

 

[DI36O]

I agree with much of what you say D1360. I would be happy festering in the upper half of the Championship for a while but for a club this size with our fanbase, we need to get out of this godforsaken 3rd tier now. If we don't then I see a 30% drop in attendance next season which would make life much harder in many ways. Yes there is a "NOW NOW NOW" mentality here, but for good reason.

I get that and it probably invites more pressure by itself. But how do you achieve that? By sacking managers over and over until one gets it right first time? Because that could take forever.

 

[Hartley Hare]

Is it not better to be a big fish in a little pond rather than a little fish in a big pond?

Don't get me wrong I hope we get out of league one this season, but on reflection the last year or so has been very entertaining win, lose or draw. Cloughie has turned our club around from the dark days of the Weir regime and he is building a decent young team. He needs time and one season is not nearly enough.

HH

 

[Silent Blade]

Grecian2000, many thanks for the poll which shows that the majority of Blades fans are supporting Clough (until the end of this season at least). It has cheered me up as I have been fuming since lunch time when I got an infraction.

Foxy and Linz, please show the result of this poll to Mr Baki and Mr Phipps and then this will make them not take much notice of the "noisy minority".

 

[YES Blade]

Clough = not the problem

Quality of playing staff = the problem

People say, "He's been given squillions to spend and has brought loads and loads of players in."

I say, 'How much has he actually been given in pounds, shillings and pence?" Also, "How much has gone out of the club in player value versus that 'award' from the club itself to Clough?"

I don't doubt that Clough has a shopping list that even extends to some Premiership players, some a little long in the tooth, some out of favour and some not getting a game for some or other reason and wanting out. The only people standing in the way of him getting these players are the board. Okay, some are ridiculously expensive, some might not be. And sometimes you have to take the risk. I refuse to believe that, with £2.5m available in funds that even after signing Brayford, we couldn't find some or other established forward even in the Championship who would come to United for £500-750k. That is a game changing investment. It seems that Clough is still resigned to picking up scraps after the board decide to satiate our thirst for new blood with a crowd favourite.

When you are left with shit choices, shit ensues. We can moan about his 'puzzling formations' as much as possible, but my thought is that Clough's tactic is to contain the game, given his back four are cobbled together, we don't have a mature, established playmaker in midfield and our front line is dogshit. Murphy will definitely be out of the club if we don't go up and I don't blame him. he has waited patiently and fielded some shit both on and off the pitch but still holds our only hope of a result these days. The keepers are inconsistent and flakey, the back four a mish-mash of out of position make-dos and all over the park, the game we play screams for someone to take the match by the scruff of the neck and drag United forward. Aside from some glimmers of hope from our youngsters, who have we got capable of doing that?

Keep saying it. Stop blaming Clough. He has a shit toolbox full of busted or half sharpened instruments. These were bought for him from fucking Lidl.

pommpey

Clough is the manager of the football club, he isn't a coach working under a director of football. So as Clough is the one signing the players, he is the one who will be judged on their performances.

You make it sound like we should feel sorry for Clough for having to work with one of, if not the largest budgets in league one. I would guess that the vast majority of League One managers would give their right bollock to be working with our budget.

The Lidl comment is just plain ridiculous, if we're shopping at Lidl then Chesterfield, Oldham, Rochdale and Bradford are scavenging in the bins round the back of Lidl.

 

[yorkshirecoast]

2 for me - but I'm being generous and it could easily have been a 1 but for the cup runs.

He's made a complete mess of it this season. Numerous poor signings, ludicrous team selections, constant pissing about with the line-up and mind-numbingly boring and negative tactics. How about trying to win a game from the start rather than trying to keep it tight in the hope we might nick it towards the end? It's crap to watch and doesn't work as the league table shows (far closer to relegation than automatic promotion points-wise). For SUFC to play so negatively against L1 opposition - even at home - is a disgrace.

Clough needs to change or we have absolutely no chance of promotion.

 

[wizadry]

Re ambitions for promotion, I'm not sure about that mate. Bristol City were recently a championship side who lost a playoff final, they had the likes of Sam Baldock and will have expected a lot more than midtable. Swindon almost matched us the last two seasons and MK Dons have been knocking on the door for years. The only difference is that we feel we're below our station lately so it's always now, now, now for our fans. But over the course of this season we all have the same goal.

Budgets and how we've used them, yes fair enough. Had we spent more in transfer fees up until january?

I don't mean to sugar coat performances at all but you have to show patience. Very little sustainable success has been created through use of the p45. You also have to balance your frustrations with the negative effects of sacking a manager - will players want to come here as every manager out will result in turnover of playing staff? Will managers want to come for anything other than future compensation payouts? Will we be seen as a volatile knee jerk comedy club considering how many managers we've been through recently? And most importantly will whoever we can get be any better either this year or by the end of next season?

Only one of our last dozen managers had any solid success and by the time he achieved it he was easily the longest serving of all of them.

Mind you saying that makes me think...is it just us?!

Thanks for the reply mate, you make some very good points and ask some very good questions. Our club doesn't have a devine right to be any higher in the league spectrum, but we as fans do have a right to have expectations to atleast challenge the likes of Swindon, Mk plastics, Preston and Bristol City. How low shall we as fans, who are in our sustained worst stint of lowly league positions in our history, keep our expectations?

There are 20,000 of us turning out to watch an entertainment industry and are only getting half of our package at the most, and that's been lenient. The least we deserve is 100% effort every week from start to finish and a lot of our fans would be happy with that, what i'm seeing at the minute is no where near that.

 

[yorkshirecoast]

Grecian2000, many thanks for the poll which shows that the majority of Blades fans are supporting Clough (until the end of this season at least). It has cheered me up as I have been fuming since lunch time when I got an infraction.

Foxy and Linz, please show the result of this poll to Mr Baki and Mr Phipps and then this will make them not take much notice of the "noisy minority".

60 people on here backing Clough shows the majority of fans back him? Yeah right. That's 60 out of an average attendance of about 18,000.

Even on here - look at Clough's ratings in the match ratings section and you will see what the majority of fans think.

Far more than 60 have rightly expressed their concern to Phipps and Baki on social media so I'm sure they are under no illusions that the majority of fans are not happy with Clough's negative tactics, poor signings and inability to get the best out of the team.

 

[Lane Ender]

Agree with the last couple in that we have to make the playoffs,if we don't,with the budget in hand,would be seen as a huge failure in anyones book.Come on Cloughy,time to stop fucking about now and show a lot more attacking intent,not only in tactics but also team selection.

Starting with tomorrow.

 

[Harry's Game]

No point sacking him now, this season has been decided, we are going to finish somewhere between 5th and 12th.

But not achieving promotion this season is complete failure, there was one priority and that was promotion, if we don't win the play offs then he should be gone the day after the season ends, if he can't get us up this season when the league is at its weakest its been in a decade he isn't going to do it next season when the league is shaping up to be stronger.

 

[zablade]

He won't be sacked whatever happens this season the transfer window has shown that, the board intend to give him at least another season...

...That is the intent anyway, however if we are not top two or a point or two off the top two by the end of November then the restlessness of fans combined with the inevitable drop in season ticket holders and attendences may force their hand.

Personnally I think he is damm lucky not to get the bullet at the end of the season if we don't get promotion. This season has been the biggest let down since Howard Kendall's second season when we spent a fortune and went nowhere.

 

[DI36O]

Thanks for the reply mate, you make some very good points and ask some very good questions. Our club doesn't have a devine right to be any higher in the league spectrum, but we as fans do have a right to have expectations to atleast challenge the likes of Swindon, Mk plastics, Preston and Bristol City. How low shall we as fans, who are in our sustained worst stint of lowly league positions in our history, keep our expectations?

There are 20,000 of us turning out to watch an entertainment industry and are only getting half of our package at the most, and that's been lenient. The least we deserve is 100% effort every week from start to finish and a lot of our fans would be happy with that, what i'm seeing at the minute is no where near that.

I don't know about effort but otherwise I agree completely. Still I have to point out you can't pin all four seasons in this divison on Clough. You could blame the appointment of Weir as a factor perhaps because the results really were that bad.

Don't get me wrong, I have plenty of reservations about his tactics especially. But as a general point of principle, if you hire a manager when in the relegation zone and fire him 16 months later on the edges of the playoffs for not being closer to automatic positions, you haven't really given it a chance to even become a good appointment.

 

[Harry's Game]

I don't know about effort but otherwise I agree completely. Still I have to point out you can't pin all four seasons in this divison on Clough. You could blame the appointment of Weir as a factor perhaps because the results really were that bad.

Don't get me wrong, I have plenty of reservations about his tactics especially. But as a general point of principle, if you hire a manager when in the relegation zone and fire him 16 months later on the edges of the playoffs for not being closer to automatic positions, you haven't really given it a chance to even become a good appointment.

Bristol City were in the relegation zone less than 16 months ago, and Clough has had more resources than any other manager in The Division.

Also you have to take into account his pervious record in management, he has never come close to getting a side promoted in The League in a decade in management. I don't know why people think that is going to change next season.

 

[metalblade]

A 2 from me but for the cup heroics it would be a 1.
Simple really over the last few months we are averaging a point per game which in anyone's book is relegation form, the surprise being that our 2 wins in 10 have come against teams currently in the top four. All this is with the best support in the division, the largest budget and the largest squad.
Clough's transfer dealings have been a disaster really, we have still not resolved the striker and centre back issues which have been known about all season in the case of a striker for much longer. Instead we have close on enough midfield players for three or four teams and we still can't make it work as we can't decide on our best team. All Cough ends up doing is playing players out of position and rotating the squad in a vain search for the magic formula. Bust ups with certain players, slagging others off publicly in the media etc etc we were warned about Nigels nasty side and his negative boring football and everything else by Derby fans on the day we hired him. Sadly it seems he has not changed a jot and most of the warnings are coming true.
Lastly look at his CV not even come close to a promotion in the league, Nigel was heaven sent for McCabe as a guy to steady the ship while still cutting the costs, hopefully Phipps and Baki will have a bit more about them and quickly realise like many fans have that Clough will never get us promotion. If we keep him all we can look forward to is mid table mediocrity, still it is too late to alter the course of this season so we have to give him a shot at the play off's if he can even get us there, when he fails (and he will) he has to go. In fact even if by some miracle he won us promotion I would still sack him at the end of the season.

 

[wizadry]

I don't know about effort but otherwise I agree completely. Still I have to point out you can't pin all four seasons in this divison on Clough. You could blame the appointment of Weir as a factor perhaps because the results really were that bad.

Don't get me wrong, I have plenty of reservations about his tactics especially. But as a general point of principle, if you hire a manager when in the relegation zone and fire him 16 months later on the edges of the playoffs for not being closer to automatic positions, you haven't really given it a chance to even become a good appointment.

As long as we get in the playoffs this season i'm willing to give him another season as that would be seen as improvement, albeit marginal but improvement nonetheless. If we were to limp over the line and get promotion via the playoffs then great and we can then move on, but while ever Clough sticks with his system and doesn't change how we approach games, change tactics or make substitutions earlier when needed then questions will be asked all season, that's inevitable and justified imo as there are a lot of questions need answering.

 

[blade too long]

relegated ,,,, really



hang on am I in another dimension ,
how on gods green earth are we going to end up in bottom 4

will bet 5000 quid with anyone who will take it on

ill give you a grand
13th down to 18th
thing is works both ways

we lost at a team with new manager syndrome , who beat wednesday 4'1
in the cup 2 years ago

 

[Silent Blade]

60 people on here backing Clough shows the majority of fans back him? Yeah right. That's 60 out of an average attendance of about 18,000.

Even on here - look at Clough's ratings in the match ratings section and you will see what the majority of fans think.

Far more than 60 have rightly expressed their concern to Phipps and Baki on social media so I'm sure they are under no illusions that the majority of fans are not happy with Clough's negative tactics, poor signings and inability to get the best out of the team.

I have to be careful with what I can reply as I still do not know why I got an infraction (I didnt use any swearwords, it must be that someone reported me which I wouldnt do on any Blade in this forum). If Baki or Phipps ever try to change Clough's tactics, selection, etc just because of what fans say on twitter or those who claim to know a lot about football then we will not see promotion again for many years. We do not want the same mistakes as L**ds and Charlton are making

 

[Blade59]

I think he should go if we don't make the play offs. If we make the play offs give him another season. However if we are not looking like been a top 2 contender after 10 games in I would make a change. We cannot linger around in this league for ever and we need to get out quickly. Championship is the division you can look for stability and the longer term. Clough is the ideal type off manager for that but we need to get out first. If that takes a Warnock / Evans type in the short term so be it. We can still get the play offs and maybe even win them this season. However Nigel needs to quickly change our approach to games. 50% of teams in this division we should be looking to have the game as good as won by half time. Top 4 is beyond us and if a couple of other teams start putting a run together 5th and 6th will suddenly start slipping away.

 

[robbiez666]

He gets until the end of the season for me, unless we have a shocking run over the next 5-7 games and play-offs look like slipping away. I think in those circumstances, if the Board had someone in mind , then we should get someone new in and hopefully change our form.

 

[Lord Bos of Eckington.]

Re ambitions for promotion, I'm not sure about that mate. Bristol City were recently a championship side who lost a playoff final, they had the likes of Sam Baldock and will have expected a lot more than midtable. Swindon almost matched us the last two seasons and MK Dons have been knocking on the door for years. The only difference is that we feel we're below our station lately so it's always now, now, now for our fans. But over the course of this season we all have the same goal.

Budgets and how we've used them, yes fair enough. Had we spent more in transfer fees up until january?

I don't mean to sugar coat performances at all but you have to show patience. Very little sustainable success has been created through use of the p45. You also have to balance your frustrations with the negative effects of sacking a manager - will players want to come here as every manager out will result in turnover of playing staff? Will managers want to come for anything other than future compensation payouts? Will we be seen as a volatile knee jerk comedy club considering how many managers we've been through recently? And most importantly will whoever we can get be any better either this year or by the end of next season?

Only one of our last dozen managers had any solid success and by the time he achieved it he was easily the longest serving of all of them.

Mind you saying that makes me think...is it just us?!

Aside from the cup ( which imo counts for nothing ) we have been significantly under forming and my view are unlikely to improve to a level we perhaps expect . The number of points secured to date , is due to the characteristics of the team and / or managerial skill .. To date truth be known , both have been disappointing and unacceptable , with just a glimmer in certain matches , that can give us a small positive sign , that it may come right .

Sacking the manager now would not improve us in the interim or long term. The manager and his staff have got us in to this predicament , and and having a knee jerk reaction to sack them , would do us , and the club no good . This would achieve nothing and send us further backwards .. Like it or not , we have to stick with the manager and see were we are at the end of the season. We have no option , and he has the responsibility to resolve team selection , tactics and win games.

It is not going to plan , but sacking the manager now , would definitely drive us into a relegation battle due to the points ratio being so tight from mid table downwards. The interim manager would be Morgan , and unfortunately he is not good enough , as proved when we sacked Wilson .

The playoffs are still in reach , and if we make them will will go up . If not Mr Clough will fall on his own sword , and we start again , Its the fine line between success and failure.

We have got to back him and give him the benefit of doubt , and just hope he knows what he is doing. ( also its him spending the money on recruitment ).

UTB

 

[ken shabby]

Get rid at end of season if we don`t go up. MK Dons, Barnsley, Port Vale, notts county, fleetwood etc etc. have all taken points of us and hardly been a threat in fact they've played rubbish against us, and yet they score a goal (usually our mistake) and then sit back watching us ponce about playing pretty one twos, they mark the lone forward (aka midfielder) and their goalkeepers get out the deckchair, read the guardian (not as thick as they look goalkeepers) and put an ounce of shag in the smoking pipe.

We are powderpuff up front and it`s not as though that hasn`t been noticeable for 2 and a half years. Clough is responsible for our 1 up front home and away tactics with a non scorer up front, and the buck stops with him. 3 league wins since october, that`s sackable in anyones book, the league cup run and the fact no other club seems to want to seriously challenge the top four has helped to cover up the cracks.

 

[Blade82]

3 for me but not guaranteed the season. If we're not serious top2 challengers by end of September he goes

 

[pommpey]

The Lidl comment is just plain ridiculous, if we're shopping at Lidl then Chesterfield, Oldham, Rochdale and Bradford are scavenging in the bins round the back of Lidl.

Do let me know which big budget signing is meant to be scoring the goals for the club, will you?

pommpey