West Brom 4 United 0 - report

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Fortunately, I was not able to watch the game. I sympathise with those who did and especially those who saw it live.

You've got to hope that this was our 'Southend'. We lost 3-0 at home in Wilder's 3rd game, were all over the place with no direction or discernable style of play and poor George Long played his last game in a horrific showing. Everyone knows what happened next.

We need an ugly 1-0 win on Saturday. Doesn't matter how, just get a goal and a win on the board. Hopefully it might give the boys some belief, because they all seem devoid of that at the moment.

Totally agree with Deadbat 's comments about winning tackles, headers etc. Got to start with the basics.
 

guancheblade said:
Starting to sound a lot like your anti-Ampadu bias from last season.

I get it... big expectations, flair/ball player, not the aggressive bladey blade fans prefer. I just think many fans are guilty of letting all that cloud their judgement. First half he drove from half way and won that corner, under pressure from three opposition players played an insanely difficult ball out from one flank to the other to set Baldock off, second half he somehow slipped the ball through a wall of West Brom players to set McBurnie away... yet you recall him doing anything positive all night. Blinkered.

And an affinity for tough tackling hard as nails players is why we will never be blessed with a quality squad because its not the club ethos. And its why we are left with a bunch of cloggers now cos deep down its what most fans want.
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Ah the anti Ampadu bias. What relevance has that to this? Interesting that he's not found anyone to take him again on loan though seen as you mentioned him.

I literally cannot recall any of these 'great' things you mention. Maybe I did miss them but if they were that stand out as you recall I can't recall them. Anything he did with the ball seemed relatively inconsequential to me?

I agree to some extent about the notion loads of United fans demand aggression and effort as for the most part that is all we have ever had. We've never had quality as could never afford it. However we have had quality like Hodges, Cowans, Duffy etc that has been appreciated.

I can live with him not getting stuck in or being aggressive if he got on the ball and demanded it but did not rarely see that. A few simple balls and one run a game is not enough for someone who is supposed to be our best outfield player and the one with the most value.

How did you rate his last two performances?

What mark would you have given him?
 
Deadbat said:
Ah the anti Ampadu bias. What relevance has that to this? Interesting that he's not found anyone to take him again on loan though seen as you mentioned him.

I literally cannot recall any of these 'great' things you mention. Maybe I did miss them but if they were that stand out as you recall I can't recall them. Anything he did with the ball seemed relatively inconsequential to me?

I agree to some extent about the notion loads of United fans demand aggression and effort as for the most part that is all we have ever had. We've never had quality as could never afford it. However we have had quality like Hodges, Cowans, Duffy etc that has been appreciated.

I can live with him not getting stuck in or being aggressive if he got on the ball and demanded it but did not rarely see that. A few simple balls and one run a game is not enough for someone who is supposed to be our best outfield player and the one with the most value.

How did you rate his last two performances?

What mark would you have given him?
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Then maybe think twice about writing up match reports and scoring player performances if you are going to "miss" their positive elements.

He was far worse at Swansea, won't take issue there. But a 1 for last night when he managed to make a couple of opportunities, and scoring others higher who really did do naff all just whiffs of vendetta, bias, whatever you want to call it. Maybe its because he wasn't with us on the "journey" and doesn't have the credit in the bank that the likes of Baldock, Norwood, Sharp and Didzy have with fans. Who knows.

And have we really appreciated the few quality flair players we've had? Duffy springs to mind, not even the manager would give him a fair crack of the whip
 
Think we all suffer from bias to some degree and we all see things differently, For me Berge put in a good cross vs Fulham only for Didzy to put wide (difficult chance) but gave the ball away three times in dangerous positions. Last night to me I didn't see him really offer anything. Perhaps others saw something that I didn't but 1/10 seems fair to me. I can only hope his poor form is down to a lack of fitness and sharpness owing to recovery from his injury. Perhaps he would be better if he had some midfielders who actually created space for him to run into, or angles for passes. In his first season he did get better as he acclimatised to the pace of the English game.
 
Thanks for the round up but saw it all on TV when my WIFI signal in the caravan didn't freeze. Think it was a blessing it did. 4 matches played and the only one of merit was the Cup Game against League 2 opposition. This was mostly a different team. I say play them on Saturday with the odd tweak. We can't do any worse. Give them a chance to step up. Maybe what we needed is the younger squad. Doesn't matter if people say some "are not ready" compared to the dross last night they would have more heart, fitness and fight than the regular first team.
 
In a game where some players were guilty of giving up, you have to give Bash and Sharp slightly higher scores but other than that I agree with everything else that's been said unfortunately.
 
Addison said:
Chris Wilder, Alan Knill, Paul Heckingbottom, Jason Tindall couldn't motivate them last season. So its not a new phenomenon. The common denominator in all of this are the players.
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Couldn't agree more. These players have cost one manager his job and will surely cost Slav his job if there isn't a huge clearout.
 
guancheblade said:
Starting to sound a lot like your anti-Ampadu bias from last season.

I get it... big expectations, flair/ball player, not the aggressive bladey blade fans prefer. I just think many fans are guilty of letting all that cloud their judgement. First half he drove from half way and won that corner, under pressure from three opposition players played an insanely difficult ball out from one flank to the other to set Baldock off, second half he somehow slipped the ball through a wall of West Brom players to set McBurnie away... yet you recall him doing anything positive all night. Blinkered.

And an affinity for tough tackling hard as nails players is why we will never be blessed with a quality squad because its not the club ethos. And its why we are left with a bunch of cloggers now cos deep down its what most fans want.
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I had to watch back to find the pass to McBurnie. It was a nice bit of play, and he also made a decent pass before that to Baldock. He obviously has quality on the ball, it’s just he doesn’t get on it enough. 18 total passes, zero tackles, zero clearances, zero interceptions. His stats for the game are horrible.
 
Does anyone actually know what our formation was? I really struggled to figure it out. Kind of looked like a 4-4-2 with Osborn on the left of midfield, but Berge didn’t seem like he was playing right midfield. It seemed really weird to me, but I was watching on my phone, so maybe I’m just being dense.
 
Harry's Game said:
I am not calling for this or wanting it .. but would anyone be surprised if Slav resigned in the next week or so?

he is a rich man with a good reputation.. he doesn’t need this car crash on his record.
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You would assume that throughout the negotiations with the club there would have been conversations about budget, players etc. I Can't see him choosing to come without those assurances - So if we don't get 3-5 in by the end of the window I wouldn't be surprised to see him make his own mind up and leave in September.
 
I have been daring myself to read this thread for about an hour. I felt like I was outside the Headteacher's office, half wanting to get it over but dreading it! Sadly, you saw it exactly the same as me. I was hoping to have seen some movement in midfield by now, as it has been obvious that Norwood and Fleck are done for about a year now. I can understand Wilder being loyal to the players who have done well under him, but would have hoped that a new manager would have seen this glaring deficiency. As you quite rightly say, we are weak, lazy and slow there and create nothing. I've never been a Freeman fanboy, but in 15 minutes he managed to contribute more than any of our other midfielders by simply wanting the ball and trying to take people on. For me he has to start on Saturday.

I can't agree with you about the referee. I can't believe that he didn't book any of their players. Their defenders were constantly going through the back of our forwards whenever the ball was played up to them, and on the few occasions when we did get past them, they simply clattered into them with no attempt to play the ball. Didzy was the only one who got booked for reacting to a forearm in the face.
 
guancheblade said:
Then maybe think twice about writing up match reports and scoring player performances if you are going to "miss" their positive elements.

He was far worse at Swansea, won't take issue there. But a 1 for last night when he managed to make a couple of opportunities, and scoring others higher who really did do naff all just whiffs of vendetta, bias, whatever you want to call it. Maybe its because he wasn't with us on the "journey" and doesn't have the credit in the bank that the likes of Baldock, Norwood, Sharp and Didzy have with fans. Who knows.

And have we really appreciated the few quality flair players we've had? Duffy springs to mind, not even the manager would give him a fair crack of the whip
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By your own admission, he did three half-decent things (that were actually two pretty basic things and a good pass). These little bits were more than cancelled out by his otherwise anonymity… and that’s before you factor in his wafted karate kick on their second goal. I think 1/10 was unfortunately more than fair.

Revolution said:
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Pair of cowards, them. Pod when we’re winning. The time disparity was absolutely nowt to do with DB revelling in misery for hours on end.
 
Completed passes last night:

  1. Egan 67
  2. Basham 53
  3. Norwood 50
  4. Robinson 40
  5. Verrips 30
  6. Fleck 24
  7. Baldock 23
  8. Osborn 15
  9. Berge 14
  10. McBurnie 10
  11. Freeman 9
  12. Sharp 6
  13. Burke 5
  14. McGoldrick 5

Mowatt and Clarke was top for WBA with 18.
 
Great effort on the report Deadbat , read much of it until got too depressed. I don't see Slav as the new Weir though, Weir was a novice, Slav is proven and needs time. Weir also had signed some of his own players whereas Slav has only just signed one player who hasn't played. Interview wise we have no idea how Slav is with the players, I've watched the training videos where he seems assertive and the players seemed impressed with the style of play.

We all know how it started under Wilder, I think 5/6 games is the time to be judge more accurately than now, especially when new players bed in.
 

Booker4 said:
Great effort on the report Deadbat , read much of it until got too depressed. I don't see Slav as the new Weir though, Weir was a novice, Slav is proven and needs time. Weir also had signed some of his own players whereas Slav has only just signed one player who hasn't played. Interview wise we have no idea how Slav is with the players, I've watched the training videos where he seems assertive and the players seemed impressed with the style of play.

We all know how it started under Wilder, I think 5/6 games is the time to be judge more accurately than now, especially when new players bed in.
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Wilder did change formation, style and personell to get us moving in the right direction. I think Slav must also reconsider what he's trying to do and make changes.
 
Webding said:
By your own admission, he did three half-decent things (that were actually two pretty basic things and a good pass). These little bits were more than cancelled out by his otherwise anonymity… and that’s before you factor in his wafted karate kick on their second goal. I think 1/10 was unfortunately more than fair.



Pair of cowards, them. Pod when we’re winning. The time disparity was absolutely nowt to do with DB revelling in misery for hours on end.
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If we only did pods when we won we would have done 11 pods in the last 18 months. How's that for depressing?
 
Roygbiv said:
If we only did pods when we won we would have done 11 pods in the last 18 months. How's that for depressing?
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That… is almost as depressing as yesterday’s game. Jesus.

Listened to today’s pod, good work as always. I think I mainly (and perversely) enjoyed the fact you both seemed as depressed as DB.
 
guancheblade said:
Not sure how Sharp gets a 2.5 when the only thing he did all game was that pass to McGoldrick. Even Verrips had more positive contributions than Sharp did all game!

And why is nobody seeing how West Brom were sending 2/3 players to clatter, not close down, clatter Berge every time he received the ball. They weren't doing that with any other player. Townsend could have seriously injured him with one late challenge that didn't even get a free kick. And despite all this he still set up 2/3/ attacks with clever balls. Again, a far bigger contribution than most so don't know why he gets the lowest mark.
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Teams will have seen his runs against Birmingham. Players have surely been instructed to never let him turn and run at them. If teams can prevent that, there's not a lot of creativity left in our team.

Our build up is ridiculously slow and our midfielders are not finding any space at the minute.

I THINK what SJ wants us to do is to play through the opposition first line of pressure, then go forward with pace and movement. But we are not good enough on the ball to get moves going and just ends up going backwards.
 
Deadbat said:
Ratings:

Verrips 1/10 – He gets 1 for coming out for one through ball. The rest of his night he was an absolute mess. Nervous, no command of his box and could not even do the basics well. It was like playing with no goalkeeper. Everything they put on goal went in and his mistakes cost us 2 goals (not great on the other 2 really and both these were savable). His attempts to deal with the long throws/corners were hard to watch. He seemed to not be able to use his hands very well – a problem if you are a keeper. He did not seem to have the right technique going at things with open palms for punches. He could not even get off the ground and seemed weak for a big bloke too. He was directly at fault for the 2nd and 4th and may as well have thrown them in as he put 2 on a plate for them. A nightmare debut and up there with Lee Baxter. Looks miles off the standard required at this level and would not be surprised if he does not play for United again after that – as harsh as that sounds. We are being linked with Olssen but if he does not come in then Foderingham will now start the next game but not sure he is much better? Lots said we would not miss Ramsdale that much as goalies are ten a penny but tonight, we saw what problems we may have.

Baldock 3.5/10 – Another who seems to be getting sucked down to the level of others really. He did not get forward at all but is playing as a regular right back. He kept plugging away but lots of balls came in from his side and he does not get close to his man at all. He seems to have lost all his confidence and at the moment you look at someone like Furlong for them and he is ten times the player he is which is sad as Baldock 2 years ago looked a solid Premier League player.

Osborn 3.5/10 – Whilst he did not do much really and often the ball came away from him felt he did put some effort in and at least ran around a bit. He did get stuck in but clearly, he is another that is too small/weak and lacking in quality to make any difference. Also, he is not a left winger but tonight not sure where he was playing really?

Robinson 2/10 – A player that is not good enough. He looks so soft for a fairly big bloke and gets muscled off things easily. Never gets there first and makes mistakes every game. Headed it into his own net for no reason whatsoever – he has done nonsensical things like this before. They won everything really that came into the box and although he made the odd interception you felt worried whenever they put it into his area. A player that is League 1-2 standard and another baffling Wilder addition that is miles off what we need regardless of formations.

Basham 3.5/10 – Struggled again and not sure he can play in a two as his strengths are getting forward and driving us on. Not sure he has ever been a brilliant defender – he has been solid but he also does daft things (even when we played well). Tonight, West Brom completely bullied us and felt by the end he was making mistakes as much as the rest.

Egan 3.5/10 – He is one that Jokanovic clearly likes judging from his pre game comments but even he is struggling. Not sure he suits a 2 at all and means if we do not have any dominant players alongside him it will be a struggle. I feel teams like Birmingham and West Brom have seen that outside of him (and not sure he is that dominant) that we have no aerial strength. I thought he did not win much really tonight and whilst everyone (me included) will throw Verrips under the bus – not sure our experienced players helped him much either.

Norwood 3/10 – He was one of the three who did not hide (as much) but he was rubbish again. He did make a few passes and win a few tackles but also lost a lot of loose balls and challenges and not sure helped get us up the field and went backwards more than forwards. By the end the midfield was completely non-existent. Sadly, I think they are all done really but whether he sees this I am not sure. Even tactical tweaks does not get these lads to actually be able to tackle, run, dribble, shoot, assist or score. Not sure what any of them do anymore?

Berge 1/10 – For all the hype he gets, good players get games by the scruff of the neck. He gives the impression to me he does not want to be here in how he plays. He barely gets his shirt dirty and the game passes him by. When a player tackles him, he seems aghast that someone can be physical against him. We need to move him on and get some players that can affect games. He may have some talent and do one great run every now and again but we are already carrying a lot of players / we cannot carry another and if we can move him on, we need to do that for me. Sadly, teams will be watching his lack of heart and application and backing off somewhat.

Fleck 1/10 – Sad to see. He looks finished to me. Hard to say that when he should be in his peak but he is woefully unfit, does not get on the ball and seems disinterested. The energetic, lively and tenacious midfielder has gone. I think he needs a fresh start and the club do too. We have had 18 months of this same midfield (with Lundstram as the other) and we have been overrun and outfought and outplayed by teams in the Prem and now in the Champ. We need new blood and they need to go somewhere else. I hate saying it but have been pinning my hopes on a resurgence but with a new so called tough manager coming in and they cannot get out of the slump, then not sure they ever will here again?

McGoldrick 2/10 – A striker who cannot finish. I love the guy (like Fleck, Bash, Norwood and others) but he looks another that seems to not quite fit at the moment in whatever we are trying to do. His game is based on getting on the ball but he cannot get on it at the moment and when he has chances, he is wretched. Still think he can offer something but we may need to go away from him for a while and try McBurnie and Brewster for a spell of games (we have paid that money – we may as well give them a run now).

Sharp 2.5/10 – Another one who sadly looks a long way from what we need as great as he has been for us. He gets little service and did make one good assist tonight but mostly not in the game and battling off scraps. Not sure that is all his fault really but he did have one chance and it got stuck under his feet. Never going to get much off big defenders though. Wins an odd free kick but mostly not a threat as he lacks pace and physicality and we do not get the ball in the box.


Subs –

Burke 1/10 – Ran one out of play. Again. Useless and both sets of fans laughing at him. Will surely just drift down the leagues soon. He is nowhere near good enough for the Championship.

McBurnie 3/10 – Committed some silly fouls but did get stuck in and won a few headers – one that led to a chance for Egan and one over. I am not sure he is the answer but deserves a run just as the rest are so bad!

Freeman 6/10 – Given him a mark even for limited time as at least he got on the ball and looked interested. Few ok runs and tried to get on the half turn/


Jokanovic 1/10 – Harsh mark considering he has been left this shower of shite and cannot help having to pick Verrips really. However, he has not motivated them at all, has them in no clear shape/formation and has no idea of his first eleven at all? He has had a bit of a disastrous start with the shocking prep/preseason disruption, lack of incoming player and now losing a key man. Throw in 3 awful results and performances and us being in the bottom 3 and he will be already feeling the pressure (not job losing pressure) Harsh for Glen Murray to call him uninspiring and drab I think it was but his post match interviews make little sense (yes, I know the language is not his first language). Has a hell of a lot of work to do. Looked almost shocked by it all. Clearly been successful where he has been before but he had a lot of work to do and Saturday already is a big game for him. Another poor performance and result and as much as it clearly is not his mess, there will be fans already asking questions of him. That is sadly how it works as fans do not have any patience. I just want to see some kind of plan and regardless of the criticism of the players that I have served up above, they still should be doing a bit better than this and other manages clearly have got relegated sides playing decent already. Were those teams that much better than us last season? Maybe they were?


West Brom – It is odd that everyone says it will take Jokanovic time and he will have to implement his own style and ways when West Brom/Fulham/Bournemouth all have had new managers playing different ways and have started well? The evidence is Jokanovic’s teams always start slowly but it is not as if the other sides backed by the books have not had similar transition. West Brom have lost their best player too but still seem to have hit the ground running. Ismael’s pressing and hard running style with direct football worked really well at Barnsley and with a big, physical side here you would be surprised if he does not have them around the top as is the evidence so far. They probably lack out and out goal scorers although Grant and Robinson will get 15+ each you would think but have enough experience, quality and depth to be too strong for most at this level. If they went up, they’d struggle again without investment of course but as with Norwich, the money you accrue is worth the boing boing they may invariably do, like they have done in previous decades. The concern is we have a season of transition that it may be, that we then become a Stoke, Swansea or gulp worse such as Wigan/Portsmouth/Charlton etc.

Tonight they did the ugly long ball/direct stuff and recycled the ball and put us under pressure but the intensity was good all night. I heard many say how ugly they were to watch and agree the set plays and throws are basic but they did some other decent things that won’t be talked about. They could have scored several other goals from open play. Overall though I am not sure they are this fantastic side some of there fans are making out. We made them look a lot better than they are. First half they led but were not fantastic. They kind of had a spell for 15 minutes and that was enough.

Opponent Man of the Match – Take your pick. The lad Furlong got it and was really good but it was more a team performance really and they just did the basics – tackling, pressing and putting the ball in good areas.

Opponent Weak link – Noone. They had better players in every position who fought harder and did the basics better.

Referee/Officials – Matthew Donohue. New ref who has never officiated a game involving us before. I thought he was fine – they were more physical but non were fouls and every set play/throw that came in never saw a foul really. We just got outmuscled all game. One booking – McGoldrick and that was soft but he did kind of raise his finger/hand in reacting to something of nothing. Easy game to ref with our set of weaklings.T
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