Warnock Vs Blackwell

[Jostein Flo]

For starters this isn't a shot at all those wanting Blackwell out, it's more for me being curious about the comparisons being made and the upcoming QPR game.

Are all those folks putting forward the "Only one Neil Warnock" and "Warnock give us a wave" chants also the ones that chanted "Warnock Out!" many times during his tenure as manager? I understand that peoples opinions may have changed since the early part of his career (understandably since he won us promotion) but it seems likely that the same people who were his most vocal critics are now hailing him as a hero.

I appreciate that the football is currently sub-standard (or worse) and the chants are more likely aimed at criticising Blackwell rather than praising Warnock but are the two managers really that different? Under Warnock prior to promotion to the Premier League we played some diabolical football and finished the season prior to that one with the players receiving the 'End of Season Lap of Honour' from approximately 5 fans and a dog after an abysmal 1-0 defeat at home to Millwall. Aside from cup runs and a losing play off final appearance Warnock's considerable period as manager only came good after a long period of stability at the club given full backing by the board.

Like I said this isn't an attack on those who want Blackwell out, it's more to get peoples views on the Warnock/Blackwell comparison as there seem to be two separate viewpoints circulating.
1) He's too like Warnock. High player turnover a high percentage of which appear to be duffers. Long ball football. Questionable tactics etc...
2) He's not enough like Warnock. Lacks passion, poor man-management etc...

Personally I'm not in the 'get rid' camp as I've never liked getting rid of managers unless major catastrophe is looming (if you're reading....Hello Mr Robson) and his performance over that last two seasons means that, for me at least, he deserves backing for this season at least.

 

[Grecian2000]

Firmly in the "too much like Warnock" category for me.

I shall not raise one chant of support or even acknowledgement for the worlds biggest Blade this Saturday. Indeed I was appalled by his "saviours return" when he came back and Palace beat Robsons team.

His reception earlier this season for Palace was no more than polite but I suspect as things have gone from bad to worse it will be a bit more vocal this week-end. I sincerely hope not.

 

[raul]

I sincerely hope so. I've got 500 bags of rose petals to shift.....

 

[Beighton_Blade]

To be fair to Neil, although a lot of his tenure did involve some dross, he was manager at a time where he oversaw a huge transition from a financially crippled club with some potential, to that of a club undergone huge progression both on and off the field.

For about 5 of the 7 years he was here, he had to make deal with absolute minimal funds, both in terms of transfer funds and wage budget, with only the promotion season seeing him spend 'significant' sums (and yet relative peanuts compared to our recent expecnditure) - by buying Webber (£500k) and Ifill (£750k) along with the free signings of HM Shipps, Unsworth and Short.

Prior to this, he had spent relative small sums, wheeling and dealing, slowly improving the squad year on year without ever being able to buy the key players he might have wanted to accelerate our success.

After finally getting the funds he craved, he got us promoted, playing some damn good football (just as we had in our other relatively successful triple assult season in 02/03) - its was only during the fiscally challenging times where we saw the really dour and long-ball stuff on a consistent basis -other than that Warnock often played an attractive and exciting (if not a purist's favourite) brand of football which always kept the fans on the edge of their seat.

The fact that under Robson, and now Kevin Blackwell, we have spent way beyond what was ever available to Neil while he was here makes the limitations of his management (of which i agree there was many!) much more paletable, the idea that we have spent in excess of £13.5 million then since his leaving BDTBL kind of demonstrates the disapointment that we are in a similar (if not worse position) than when Neil was here.

At least he had a genuine excuse of not having much resources prior to us being promoted, whereas Robson had the blank chequebook handed over without a second thought of him failing to manage effectively some of the (admittedly very good) players he signed, and now Kevin pleads poverty after blowing a £3m committment on Ched, £2m on (a vastly overpriced) Hendo, £1m+ on a player he would later sell after not being able to get the best from (Cotterill), and other significant amounts on unconvincing signings, with thousands spent on unnecessary wages (Little, France, Reid, Fortune et al), which are resources way beyond the amounts that Neil could only ever have dreamt of while we were chasing promotion.

To compare the successes and failures, or advantages and drawbacks to management of both Neil and Kevin, you have to appreciate the vast differences in the circumstances they have had to endure. Yes Warnock had spells just as bad (if not worse) than the current status quo under Blackie, but also, Neil had little by way of the backing or resources available in his time. Also, despite the relative success Blackie achieved last year, there is no questioning the entertainment on offer has generally (barring his immediate half-season spell post-Robson and the Play-Off semi-final matches v Preston) has been minimal, and at some points dismal, especially away from home.

Had Neil (or any other manager) had the same resources available and yet taken a little more of an adventurous stance to our football, then i don't doubt the atsmophere would not be so negative as it is at present.

People will accept dross whilever is it providing results, but if they see neither results or performances which entertain then they are bound to show their dismay. Although both Neil and Blackwell are, to and extent, cut from the same cloth, there is no denying, Warnock is far superior in most aspects, and had he the same resources on offer as has been at United the past 3 years, i dare say we would have undoutbedly been i) more entertained by the football on show, and ii) performed better than what we have under Robson and this season under Kevin.

UTB!

 

[Revolution]

People will accept dross whilever is it providing results, but if they see neither results or performances which entertain then they are bound to show their dismay. Although both Neil and Blackwell are, to and extent, cut from the same cloth, there is no denying, Warnock is far superior in most aspects, and had he the same resources on offer as has been at United the past 3 years, i dare say we would have undoutbedly been i) more entertained by the football on show, and ii) performed better than what we have under Robson and this season under Kevin.

You ignore the elephant in the room, which is that Warnock did have these resources from January 2006 onwards, but with odd exceptions (Hulse) Warnock's big money signings were dodgy at best and a disaster at worst.

The amount of money wasted from January 2006 to Jaunary 2007 on has beens and never would bes, when the signing of one sound PL player would have kept us up, is IMHO the primary reason we are where we are today.

 

[GRUMPY BLADE]

Style wise there is not much different between them, they can both churn out crap but Neil would at least be giving McC some verbal stick about how the team is funded, where his club is going etc and would fight his corner more than Blackie.

 

[beightonblade]

Mr Warnock and the Blades are like strawberries and cream ....made for each other.

 

[Beighton_Blade]

You ignore the elephant in the room, which is that Warnock did have these resources from January 2006 onwards, but with odd exceptions (Hulse) Warnock's big money signings were dodgy at best and a disaster at worst.

The amount of money wasted from January 2006 to Jaunary 2007 on has beens and never would bes, when the signing of one sound PL player would have kept us up, is IMHO the primary reason we are where we are today.

But yet he STILL got us promoted did he not!?

I agree, just like Blackie, he does have a tendancy to make questionable signings, however, for the money he spent he did far better in comparison to the vast sums spent by Blackwell. For me, he wasted £3m on Akinbiyi and Horsefield (equivalent to a KB gamble on Ched) in a paniced attempt to confirm promotion (which ultimately we did), but other than that, most of his bigger money signings generally bore fruit at some stage, and his lesser signings mostly cost minimal amounts (comparatively) - opposed to Blackwells vast overspending on Ched, Hendo, Cotts (who has been sold for much less and proved his worth elsewhere) - especially when you consider most of these were signed to replace players who were already at the club, and some would say are equally as good. e.g. Ched for Stead, Hendo for Hulse/Beattie*, Yeates for Cotts (who looks no better or worse but suffers the same issues due to our Style!), Taylor etc etc etc

Neil only really spent 'big' sums (£1m+) on our promotion season and in the PL, hardly the same sort of dissapointment to Robbo and Blackie wasting £13m on sides unable to achieve the same feat!!?

Even then, he only got the odd few drastically wrong (Shelton, Fathi, Akinbiyi, Horse) - most of the others proved beneficial in some degree (Killa, Stead, Hulse) and he got far better value for money from his lesser singings (Paddy, Brown, CKR, Armstrong, Ndlovu) than KB has from his, despite having much less funds and wages alloted in his time at this level!

Don't get me wrong, i neither want Warnock back, or to keep Blackie, but to say things were just as bad at times under Neil as they are now is, whilst possibly true, ignoring the fact that the two periods were vastly different in terms of what the manager has had at their disposal during their time here to achieve success, Warnock spent about £12-£15m in 7 years, Robbo and Blackie have spent that in 3 without any sort of similar success, and only a failed PO final to show for the expenditure which has now left us in the situation we are now!

UTB!

 

[GRUMPY BLADE]

Probably but going back to something is not always best, and Warnock wouldn’t have his trusty side kick Dooley helping him fight the good fight. So lets stick with the memories

 

[Grecian2000]

Mr Warnock and the Blades are like strawberries and cream ....made for each other.

Capital letters, actual English words. A proper sentence. What have you done with the real BB?

 

[beightonblade]

Capital letters, actual English words. A proper sentence. What have you done with the real BB?

He's away learning French.

 

[Beighton_Blade]

Probably but going back to something is not always best, and Warnock wouldn’t have his trusty side kick Dooley helping him fight the good fight. So lets stick with the memories

I agree completely! I am in no way advocating such a move, just my opinion as to why I can not accept some of Blackwell's failure being similar to Neils, and why his excuses mainly fall on deaf ears here.

We definitely need a new man capable of wheeling and dealing, and getting the best from a collective of players, rather than signing indivdual players who are seen to be quality (of which Neil was a master), yet someone willing to adopt a new, positive, attacking and dominating/confident approach to playing football which can illustrate the clubs supposed (and the fans essential) expectations with regards to competing for promotion.

I would also like someone willing to recruit from outside the usual spectrum of players we usually target, and someone willing to develop any sort of potential in either our academy, or lower/foreign leagues.

Who this might be i would not like to pinpoint one particular man, however, the common mentions for Sean O'Driscoll, Steve Coppell, Dave Jones would be favourites no doubt, along with other mentionables like Coleman, Southgate, or maybe a gamble on the likes of Speed, or a foreign name in the mould of Di Canio (not the ex-piggy one!), Paulo Sousa, etc...

UTB!

 

[Cheshire Cat]

I think there's some rose-tinted Warnock memories around here.

Even at the time that he was the best thing that could possibly have happened to us, I seem to remember that a sizeable chunk of posters on message boards referred to him as Colin, questioned his commitment, spread rumours of him taking back-handers from player contracts, ruining the careers of young hopefuls (Simon Francis - where are you now?) and generally wishing him gone. This even in the promotion season.

Warnock did a job for us that he was uniquely qualified to pull off, much like Basset did before him. Take a club with nothing and going nowhere, and with some sensible board-room support turn them into the type of club whose supporters can be genuinely disappointed not to be watching Premier League football. The difference with Bassett is that he did get some financial backing eventually.

I wonder how many who will sing his praises on Saturday would have been loosening their shoes and heading for the car-park after the Millwall game had it not been 3 or 4 years before someone had the idea.

Not trying to seize the moral high-ground, but there is more than a whiff of hypocrisy about "we should never have let him go, bring him back, losing him is the root cause of our current troubles"

 

[GRUMPY BLADE]

Thats correct, how many late goals got Warnock out of jail and were then put down to 'The Blades Spirit/Way what ever you want to call it'?

Don't forget that Warnock shit his pants when Bolton came to town and played 451.

 

[oldblade]

Personally I'm not in the 'get rid' camp as I've never liked getting rid of managers unless major catastrophe is looming (if you're reading....Hello Mr Robson) and his performance over that last two seasons means that, for me at least, he deserves backing for this season at least.

Major catastrophe might not be looming this season (although a sound beating by our illustrius neighbours could well be on the cards in April). But I see no hope at all for next season and think we are likely to be fighting against relegation.

 

[oldblade]

I think there's some rose-tinted Warnock memories around here.

Even at the time that he was the best thing that could possibly have happened to us, I seem to remember that a sizeable chunk of posters on message boards referred to him as Colin, questioned his commitment, spread rumours of him taking back-handers from player contracts, ruining the careers of young hopefuls (Simon Francis - where are you now?) and generally wishing him gone. This even in the promotion season.

Warnock did a job for us that he was uniquely qualified to pull off, much like Basset did before him. Take a club with nothing and going nowhere, and with some sensible board-room support turn them into the type of club whose supporters can be genuinely disappointed not to be watching Premier League football. The difference with Bassett is that he did get some financial backing eventually.

I wonder how many who will sing his praises on Saturday would have been loosening their shoes and heading for the car-park after the Millwall game had it not been 3 or 4 years before someone had the idea.

Not trying to seize the moral high-ground, but there is more than a whiff of hypocrisy about "we should never have let him go, bring him back, losing him is the root cause of our current troubles"

Most of the people on this forum that I see praising him now were also supportive of him when he was our manager. I do not see many people changing their tune. Although Len doesn't seem to hate him with quite the same venom as before!

 

[Eskimo]

There is no question about it Warnock has an exceptional talent. His only failing was when he had a few quid to spend he did not always spend wisely - having identified that we could have addressed the problem with Neil still in charge.

The biggest mistake we made was getting rid of Warnock - or was it nit going back for him three weeks ago before he left Palace??

 

[Bramley]

For starters this isn't a shot at all those wanting Blackwell out, it's more for me being curious about the comparisons being made and the upcoming QPR game.

Are all those folks putting forward the "Only one Neil Warnock" and "Warnock give us a wave" chants also the ones that chanted "Warnock Out!" many times during his tenure as manager? I understand that peoples opinions may have changed since the early part of his career (understandably since he won us promotion) but it seems likely that the same people who were his most vocal critics are now hailing him as a hero.

I appreciate that the football is currently sub-standard (or worse) and the chants are more likely aimed at criticising Blackwell rather than praising Warnock but are the two managers really that different? Under Warnock prior to promotion to the Premier League we played some diabolical football and finished the season prior to that one with the players receiving the 'End of Season Lap of Honour' from approximately 5 fans and a dog after an abysmal 1-0 defeat at home to Millwall. Aside from cup runs and a losing play off final appearance Warnock's considerable period as manager only came good after a long period of stability at the club given full backing by the board.

Like I said this isn't an attack on those who want Blackwell out, it's more to get peoples views on the Warnock/Blackwell comparison as there seem to be two separate viewpoints circulating.
1) He's too like Warnock. High player turnover a high percentage of which appear to be duffers. Long ball football. Questionable tactics etc...
2) He's not enough like Warnock. Lacks passion, poor man-management etc...

Personally I'm not in the 'get rid' camp as I've never liked getting rid of managers unless major catastrophe is looming (if you're reading....Hello Mr Robson) and his performance over that last two seasons means that, for me at least, he deserves backing for this season at least.

He was a great manager, built it up from nothing, brought through a generation of young players who loved playing for the club. Presided through amazing upsets and last-gasp winners. Best atmosphere in the ground for donkeys years and a tangible connection between support and players. All other clubs despised us and I absolutely loved that. Sure he whinged about the referees, made some bad signings in the PL and could grate occasionly, but look at Robson and Blackwell, look at Palace's upturn and QPR (were 40/1 for promotion recently), I'd give a kidney to have him back.

Also a top guy to talk to away from the ground, always had time for people.

 

[Jostein Flo]

No issues from me Bramley - the guy will is a legend in my eyes. The post was more about the seeing if the supporters who wanted rid of him during his time as manager will be the ones singing "One Neil Warnock" come the QPR game.

 

[Bramley]

No issues from me Bramley - the guy will is a legend in my eyes. The post was more about the seeing if the supporters who wanted rid of him during his time as manager will be the ones singing "One Neil Warnock" come the QPR game.

Warnock is god mate

 

[broomhillblade]

From Blackie's preview on the O/S:

"I think that the game will come down to what happens in the two penalty-areas, whoever defends well or takes the chances."

We can forget the midfield then.

 

[super_pig]

when warnock came in we were at a low ebb much like now. i'm not a fan of his style. (more his post game moaning that i find embarrassing than the actual football) but he did ONE thing that you have to give him credit for.. he put the SOUL back into our club.. nobson and bootwell have drained it all out again