Outgoing? Vini Souza

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McGrath said:
Why are people so obsessed with us signing foreigners. It seems bonkers to me. I don't care where they are from as long as we are playing well. Let the manager manage, he's doing a good job and done a great job in the past

It sometimes feels like on this forum, no matter how well we do, in whatever circumstances, folk need to find something to gripe about!
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..not just on this forum, but in life generally !
 

Tom Bott said:
All played by Wilder though, why did he not get rid of them if he is so anti foreign ?
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Wilder is going to use the players available...obviously....fact is he has said a "team of internationals doesn't work" and his signings so far, plus players we are genuinely linked to back that up.....OK some players, (BBD and Choudhury for example) may have international status but they are born and bred "British" players....

Listen, I'm not a football manager, far from it so I will bow to Wilder's superior knowledge in that respect. It just seems incredibly blinkered IMO.
 
Tom Bott said:
Lys Mousset, born in France.

Illiman Ndiaye, born in France.

This is getting tiresome, maybe France is too close to call abroad ?
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Moose was an exception, granted, and probably soured Wilders opinion of international players further....Ndaiye we picked up as a kid from a skills academy and has played 94 of his 124 professional games in the UK.

What would be interesting, (although you would probably find it tiresome) is how many of Wilders signings for SUFC are British/Irish based.....bet it is over 85%
 
Torrix1889 said:
Wilder is going to use the players available...obviously....fact is he has said a "team of internationals doesn't work" and his signings so far, plus players we are genuinely linked to back that up.....OK some players, (BBD and Choudhury for example) may have international status but they are born and bred "British" players....

Listen, I'm not a football manager, far from it so I will bow to Wilder's superior knowledge in that respect. It just seems incredibly blinkered IMO.
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Where has Wilder said he's not signing foreigners? Because if he hasn't said that, how can you say he's incredibly blinkered?
 
I think UW 'scouting' has a lot to answer for. Wasn't there a loan from an obscure Chinese side we got that was meant to be rapid as hell and turned out to be a bit of a bomb scare? Not quite Oli Burke levels perhaps but definitely underwhelming in the extreme.

I think there were a few odd loans to buy that all turned out to be poor.
 
Torrix1889 said:
Moose was an exception, granted, and probably soured Wilders opinion of international players further....Ndaiye we picked up as a kid from a skills academy and has played 94 of his 124 professional games in the UK.

What would be interesting, (although you would probably find it tiresome) is how many of Wilders signings for SUFC are British/Irish based.....bet it is over 85%
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I rekon the stats probably back this up, but I don't think CW's BrexitBlades is really a thing. Certainly not in some deliberate 'no forins' way. I think, that in the first stint, HRH relied on CW's little black book. He had extensive knowledge of Champ, L1 and L2 players - his experience pre-United wouldn't have offered him deep international insight because of the budgets at his previous clubs.

Then, when we had money to play with in the first PL season(s), we still had a squad made up from Black Book acquisitions with contracts to honour and players that deserved a crack at the PL. This coupled with a not fit for purpose scouting / recruitment department - the On Field part of the club outpaced the Off Field side (still is arguably) - conspired to limit our international options IMO.

Then The Back Door Affair happened and we fast forward a few seasons. CW is back at the club and the club is going through massive off field changes and we, again, are in a situation where the On Field part of the club is outpacing the Off Field side. So, CW etc. are cutting their cloth accordingly. I fully believe that given the right insight, data and personalities, CW will have no issue recruiting from over seas. However, being cheap and non-domestic is not enough in and of itself. Which is exactly how it should be.
 
Ron_Justice said:
I rekon the stats probably back this up, but I don't think CW's BrexitBlades is really a thing. Certainly not in some deliberate 'no forins' way. I think, that in the first stint, HRH relied on CW's little black book. He had extensive knowledge of Champ, L1 and L2 players - his experience pre-United wouldn't have offered him deep international insight because of the budgets at his previous clubs.

Then, when we had money to play with in the first PL season(s), we still had a squad made up from Black Book acquisitions with contracts to honour and players that deserved a crack at the PL. This coupled with a not fit for purpose scouting / recruitment department - the On Field part of the club outpaced the Off Field side (still is arguably) - conspired to limit our international options IMO.

Then The Back Door Affair happened and we fast forward a few seasons. CW is back at the club and the club is going through massive off field changes and we, again, are in a situation where the On Field part of the club is outpacing the Off Field side. So, CW etc. are cutting their cloth accordingly. I fully believe that given the right insight, data and personality, CW will have no trouble recruiting from over seas. However, being cheap and non-domestic is not enough in and of itself. Which is exactly how it should be.
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Agree with this, personality, work ethic and a detailed understanding of how a target operates are all going to be difficult to understand if we're shopping in foreign markets, and are key criteria of Wilders recruitment strategy. I don't think it's the case of 'Brexit Wilder', just that he can't get the info he needs with our current scouting set up to buy from abroad without taking risks.
 
30-40 million for a decent championship player who was well out of his depth in the Premier League? 😅 Some of you live in Narnia.
 
FinchleyBlade said:
30-40 million for a decent championship player who was well out of his depth in the Premier League? 😅 Some of you live in Narnia.
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He was far from out of his depth. He was the only player in our squad who you could pass the ball to with a couple of players around him and pretty much guarantee he wouldn’t lose possession. Yes, his performances dropped off once the rest of the team had fully packed in, but whose wouldn’t? In a proper Premier League team he’d be more than comfortable.
 
Back to Vini ,

If there is anything in the Palmeiras loan link , a loan can't possibly make sense - you don't loan out a crucial player who is in your starting 11.

The interesting bit is the mention that there are other clubs after him (possibly on a permanent) - but that's no surprise - other clubs are always going to be looking at your best players.

If there is an offer , it will be the first test of the new owners.
I think they are going to be "player traders" but that requires a constant supply of replacements.
I doubt they've yet had time to set up the necessary scouting / data systems.

For player trading to work , I'm guessing you have to have a replacement continuously available for every position on the pitch.
I think it would be unwise to start when we're in a promotion battle.

Vini's injury looked pretty genuine to me when he was hobbling around the pitch at half-speed last time out.
 
mcbladeface said:
I think UW 'scouting' has a lot to answer for. Wasn't there a loan from an obscure Chinese side we got that was meant to be rapid as hell and turned out to be a bit of a bomb scare? Not quite Oli Burke levels perhaps but definitely underwhelming in the extreme.

I think there were a few odd loans to buy that all turned out to be poor.
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Zivkovic. Came in on loan with Retsos, supposedly had blistering pace but never used it and looked pretty awful.
 
Latters said:
He was far from out of his depth. He was the only player in our squad who you could pass the ball to with a couple of players around him and pretty much guarantee he wouldn’t lose possession. Yes, his performances dropped off once the rest of the team had fully packed in, but whose wouldn’t? In a proper Premier League team he’d be more than comfortable.
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I recall him having a few good games but being awful a lot. Suspect we'd have all sold him pretty happily.

No guarantees he's good enough if we go back up, to be honest. Though he should have more confidence and we shouldn't be quite as bad overall.
 

Latters said:
He was far from out of his depth. He was the only player in our squad who you could pass the ball to with a couple of players around him and pretty much guarantee he wouldn’t lose possession. Yes, his performances dropped off once the rest of the team had fully packed in, but whose wouldn’t? In a proper Premier League team he’d be more than comfortable.
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I would agree with this. His biggest issue last year was his attitude not his ability, especially second part of the season.
 
Keen Blade said:
Back to Vini ,

If there is anything in the Palmeiras loan link , a loan can't possibly make sense - you don't loan out a crucial player who is in your starting 11.

The interesting bit is the mention that there are other clubs after him (possibly on a permanent) - but that's no surprise - other clubs are always going to be looking at your best players.

If there is an offer , it will be the first test of the new owners.
I think they are going to be "player traders" but that requires a constant supply of replacements.
I doubt they've yet had time to set up the necessary scouting / data systems.

For player trading to work , I'm guessing you have to have a replacement continuously available for every position on the pitch.
I think it would be unwise to start when we're in a promotion battle.

Vini's injury looked pretty genuine to me when he was hobbling around the pitch at half-speed last time out.
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The Palmeiras thing seems a bit bonkers. They really want a player, know they can't afford him but have invented some sort of crackers loan deal where there's zero incentive for United to agree to it.
 
McGrath said:
The Palmeiras thing seems a bit bonkers. They really want a player, know they can't afford him but have invented some sort of crackers loan deal where there's zero incentive for United to agree to it.
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Yer mean like Sunderland Klana proposal
 
McGrath said:
Why are people so obsessed with us signing foreigners. It seems bonkers to me. I don't care where they are from as long as we are playing well. Let the manager manage, he's doing a good job and done a great job in the past

It sometimes feels like on this forum, no matter how well we do, in whatever circumstances, folk need to find something to gripe about!
Click to expand...
I can only speak for myself on this one, but: it's not an obsession with foreign players, it's a feeling that focusing only on players from the British Isles restricts us to a small corner of the market and prevents us from getting the best value possible when we go shopping.

I don't for one moment believe that Wilder is "racist" and refuses to work with foreign players on principle. I do think he's most comfortable with players who grew up in the same footballing culture he did--he knows how to connect with them, how to motivate them, how to get a tune out of them. He's brilliant at it, which is why he's such a good lower league manager. He doesn't have much experience leading a dressing room in which the players are speaking three, four, five (or more) different languages. Where a translator is going to be necessary at times.

I'm not knocking the guy. He's having yet another brilliant season. For the second time he's proving to be exactly what the club needs at a particular moment in time. I do think it's fair to ask whether a manager can be successful at the top level over the long haul without casting the net a bit wider in terms of recruitment.
 
Shadota said:
If it was 30mins before kick off, why didn't we name him in the squad, that's announced 60 mins before kick off?
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I was making a joke lol, not a great one granted, in fact its a fairly shit one but it made me laugh. Vinny is going nowhere.
If he does go though, I wonder if it takes them 20 days to get it done!!!
 
For those saying Palmeiras don't have enough money, the most they've spent on a transfer (according to Transfermarkt) is about £15m, so given we'd probably want £20m+ it'd have to be a record transfer for them (I can't see why we would agree to a loan without an obligation to buy if we wanted to make money from the deal):
1737644964844.webp

However, Palmeiras also seem to have built up a large amount of player sales over the last couple of seasons (I assume this has generated a handsome transfer kitty):
1737645115920.webp

So with that kind of money coming in, it's maybe not beyond their means to make a record transfer bid for Souza...
 
dc_blade said:
I can only speak for myself on this one, but: it's not an obsession with foreign players, it's a feeling that focusing only on players from the British Isles restricts us to a small corner of the market and prevents us from getting the best value possible when we go shopping.

I don't for one moment believe that Wilder is "racist" and refuses to work with foreign players on principle. I do think he's most comfortable with players who grew up in the same footballing culture he did--he knows how to connect with them, how to motivate them, how to get a tune out of them. He's brilliant at it, which is why he's such a good lower league manager. He doesn't have much experience leading a dressing room in which the players are speaking three, four, five (or more) different languages. Where a translator is going to be necessary at times.

I'm not knocking the guy. He's having yet another brilliant season. For the second time he's proving to be exactly what the club needs at a particular moment in time. I do think it's fair to ask whether a manager can be successful at the top level over the long haul without casting the net a bit wider in terms of recruitment.
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I think there's a lot more in play that just who Wilders comfortable with. He's had a very successful formula over the years which places a value on not just talent, but character and commitment. Doing the sort of checks to confirm that is much harder than just pure scouting.

So if we want to bring players in from further afield (which I am sure he will want as much as anyone), but with the right profile. The club is going to have to invest in a fairly extensive scouting network abroad. That's going to take time.
 
McGrath said:
I think there's a lot more in play that just who Wilders comfortable with. He's had a very successful formula over the years which places a value on not just talent, but character and commitment. Doing the sort of checks to confirm that is much harder than just pure scouting.

So if we want to bring players in from further afield (which I am sure he will want as much as anyone), but with the right profile. The club is going to have to invest in a fairly extensive scouting network abroad. That's going to take time.
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It has been very successful, as I said. I think there's reason to believe it's not enough at a higher level. In the modern game you need to be able to build a successful unit out of people with all sorts of different personalities, cultures, and so on.

I do agree that the club's limited scouting has had a role in this as well. We badly need to get that sorted and it looks like some positive steps are being made. If Wilder responds to that different situation with a different approach to recruitment then he'll have proved me wrong and so much the better.
 

dc_blade said:
It has been very successful, as I said. I think there's reason to believe it's not enough at a higher level. In the modern game you need to be able to build a successful unit out of people with all sorts of different personalities, cultures, and so on.

I do agree that the club's limited scouting has had a role in this as well. We badly need to get that sorted and it looks like some positive steps are being made. If Wilder responds to that different situation with a different approach to recruitment then he'll have proved me wrong and so much the better.
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At a higher level he brought in Berge. Someone he clearly worked hard to bring on, and would appear to have had the right character traits.

It's upto the club to sort scouting and recruitment overseas out so we can bring more players, Wilder can't be abroad searching for them. I think this notion by many that Wilder only like British players is plain wrong
 
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