United's Finances... genuine question

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How many other clubs who spend relatively nowt need to be frequently in the Premier League just to 'sustainable'?
 
The assets stuff goes under the radar a touch I think. The club didn't have a great deal of money to start with nevermind having to buy the ground and hotel back from essentially itself.
 
BalticBlade said:
How many other clubs who spend relatively nowt need to be frequently in the Premier League just to 'sustainable'?
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If we're talking about Championship sized clubs then any of them that don't have an owner that's willing to pump >£10m or so in a season just to keep their heads above water. Assuming they want to challenge a the top end of the division of course.
 
Red Hot Currie said:
Honest, genuine question..... where has all the money gone????? Given the above... how can we get promoted (twice in 5yrs) to the football financial promised land..... and seemingly be more skint and less competitive than ever???
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from what ive learnt from listening to the interview of the people when they talk about money of the last 12 months. ive come to a conclusion that the prince didnt cut his cloth after relegation, in trying to bounce back & realise he got in to deep, & we needed the premier league money to bail us out

also it doesnt help that you teams like forest, spending 300m & completely scewing everything
 
Greg. said:
Reposting Norwich's finances as a decent example of a club that has yo-yo'd between the two leagues and try and run a sustainable self-financing business model. Their profitability shown as EBITDA before any transfers has evolved like this (I haven't added the latest period):

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£7m of collective operating profits across 9 years including 4 PL stints in that time. Remove the first year in the table above and there are losses.

If you are in the PL you will generally be profitable although you don't get the £100m+ profit windfalls people like to talk about as your costs go up a lot, part automatically due to promotion clauses in contracts. If in the Championship most teams lose money so either need wealthy owners to fund loses or sell talented players.

This is a bit the problem you face if you do have very wealthy owners. Upon promotion do you gamble and spend big to try and stay up (might have worked for Forest, probably not for Burnley), or live more within your means so you can adjust easier to the Championship financially upon relegation.
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That is a great bit of info but what it tells you is football and finance is ridiculous and wages need seriously looking at.

I get to get the best you need to pay the most but imagine a cap on wages or wages kept low but potential high bonus payments depending on success.
It will never happen but surely for sustainability things need to change to make things fairer.
 
Red Hot Currie said:
I'm an infrequent poster, a long time lurker on here and lifelong Blade (you can judge my age by my username!).

I'm genuinely baffled by our situation at the moment... not the football side of things - I think it's obvious that we just dont have enough quality in the squad at this level. For that reason I see no point hurling pelters at the players... over a full season most just aren't up to it at this level.

It's our 'financial' woes that genuinely perplex me. I'll be straight up... I know nothing of football finance (I can barely balance my own monthly budget)... but there are people who do genuinely understand it (maybe someone on here?). The following things just don't make sense to me;

1. We've been in the top league 3 out of 5 seasons. That means 3 x £160m (min)... plus parachute payments

2. We are told that we can't afford big signings. And we have made very few.. we basically got most of our money back on Berge and covered a chunk of McB and Brewster by selling our best asset to Marseille.

3. We don't pay big wages.... often a reason offered up as to why we don't make big signings.

4. We've had some success in spotting and developing upcoming talent... but compared to other clubs we have a stellar record of selling it for peanuts (and we dont re-invest whatever we get) The list is too painful to go into...!

Honest, genuine question..... where has all the money gone????? Given the above... how can we get promoted (twice in 5yrs) to the football financial promised land..... and seemingly be more skint and less competitive than ever???

The way we appear to be run financially just makes us embarrassing in terms of us just being utterly uncompetitive on the field.

I'd love someone who is qualified to forensically audit how our club is run financially and to explain why we appear to be in such a state.... when on the face of it seems like we shouldn't be.

I'm guess I'm asking that age old question we Blades fans ask... 'Weeers money gone???'
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I understand the confusion - I think there is probably two big factors which create this perception.

1. The vast majority of premier league clubs are loss making and are backed by wealthy owners who are not driven by profit. It's easy to look at similar size clubs like Forest and assume we can spend the same amount as them based on the TV revenue and crowds we both pull in. Ultimately they have an owner who is willing to plough money into the club and make a heavy loss. The Prince is not able/willing to do the same and is trying to keep us as sustainable as possible which means we are effectively operating on a different field to most clubs we are playing against.

2. As we found out last season - cash flow appears to be a huge issue. Big transfers we've made in the past like Berge and Brewster are paid in installments and so they hit the cash flow of the club years down the line (as we saw last season). We have overspent in the 2 years we were in the Premier League and as a result those repercussions are still being felt over the last 2 seasons.
 
BalticBlade said:
How many other clubs who spend relatively nowt need to be frequently in the Premier League just to 'sustainable'?
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As with any of these things it’s a couple of years old but from the Deloitte report on football club finances, the answer is that most clubs at Championship level make a loss:

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Red Hot Currie said:
Sorry. I must have missed the answers. Or not understood them. Do I need to apologise for my lack of attention/uderstanding or for being a long time lurker who has the temerity to ask a question on here?

As for an annual audit.... I'd hazard a guess that most fans don't have the time or knowledge to really get into it? Hence why many clubs are successful in hiding their financial slight of hand... often to the huge detriment of the fans.

Not looking for a row Bert.... my question(s) is/are genuine.... and apologies in advance if I've taken your response se in the wrong spirit or created an unnecessary thread.

UTB
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go ahead young man and keep asking if you want .
 
Red Hot Currie said:
Sorry. I must have missed the answers. Or not understood them. Do I need to apologise for my lack of attention/uderstanding or for being a long time lurker who has the temerity to ask a question on here?

As for an annual audit.... I'd hazard a guess that most fans don't have the time or knowledge to really get into it? Hence why many clubs are successful in hiding their financial slight of hand... often to the huge detriment of the fans.

Not looking for a row Bert.... my question(s) is/are genuine.... and apologies in advance if I've taken your response se in the wrong spirit or created an unnecessary thread.

UTB
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No you don't need to apologise, but you will encounter some major, up their own arses , smug , aloof bullies on here .

But you know that .
 
SouthStandGBlock said:
Christ, bust his balls why don't you?

It's a genuine question, and a fair one.

I do understand finance and I'm sick of all the financial parsimony that comes out of the club. When we signed Berge I genuinely believed we had started acting like a bigger club. Since then, it's all been loans, freebies etc etc.

We limped through last season with no money for paint, fertilizer and with an embargo.

When we got promoted I at least expected us to have a go, but we sold our two better players as the season started, reinvested this money, but outside of this, didn't put a dent in the £100m.

I appreciate that there's wages and agents fees etc, but we apparently pay peanuts, so there should be a chunk of the £100m left imo.

Our final chance of regaining some dignity is in January, we need at least 6 new players imo as well as shipping some of the dress out. We've moved on one failed new signing, and signed 3 new players. One of these is on loan and ones a development player. Unless we do some unbelievable business in the next 20 hours, the ability to change the season will be over.

Personally I think the whole thing has been pathetic. Why get promoted if you're not going to even try? If the answer is the money, then where is this as it hasn't been spent on the first team.

I've been a big fan of the Prince, but he clearly can't compete at this level, and I think the original question of where has all the money gone and what are the aims of the club is a fair one.

I'm embarrassed by my own football club and that's simply not right.
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I agree with you mate but if the lack of investment in the team means the board are using the cash to put the club on a better financial footing i could accept but i doubt thats the reason for buying cheap players .
 
Wards said:
Easy to underestimate how much it costs to simply keep the lights on at Champ level. That, together with the funds needed to buy the ground back from McCabe, will account for vast portions of any income we got.

Probably safe to say we've been frugal this season, in part to pay for the debts incurred the last two seasons, and to keep us going for the next couple too.

When you have a look at the accounts it's easy to see why football clubs are considered financial black holes. Also important to note PA probably can't afford to run us as a moderately sized Champ club so it's little surprise he's been reluctant to splash out with a potential sale on the horizon.
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Listened to the pod "The Price of Football" today. There was a question about how many extra tickets clubs would have to sell for each home game to break even. In League 2 it was 500 per game maybe possible for a few. League 1 it was 5000 per game just about impossible for all. In the Championship it was 20 000 per game- totally impossible even physically for any club to achieve.
 
Interesting posts but not very helpful to Red Hot Currie

Maybe looking at these links will give him some reading material and help him to formulate more specific questions on sections he doesn’t understand, we have plenty of members on here who can put financial speak into layman’s terms if they have a specific question to answer.

Sheffield United Football Club Company Number: 00061564

Companies House listing, the last complete accounts were up to 30 June 2022
https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/00061564/filing-history

Pretty good video from YorkBlade but a bit dated now
https://www.s24su.com/forum/threads/sheffield-united-accounts-20-21-explained.90475/
 

Wards said:
If we're talking about Championship sized clubs then any of them that don't have an owner that's willing to pump >£10m or so in a season just to keep their heads above water. Assuming they want to challenge a the top end of the division of course.
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On that note, our lack of a benefactor has to be made up elsewhere. Sales of Academy players are a solution, but they’re unreliable and often serve to weaken the team.

Forest have a rich owner but only dodged Profit and Sustainability sanctions for this long by selling players. Burke, Cash, Spence, and oops, too late, Johnson…

Even if we get a financial saviour, the academy and player sales remain vital.

And if we don’t… Then after relegation we might not choose to use parachute payments to attempt to bounce straight back. There’s a good case for dumping much of the old squad and investing in a longer term plan. That’s the Prince’s call, and I suspect it’s where we’re headed.
 
BalticBlade said:
But they survive?
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We’re surviving.

Most of them will either owe their owners or banks a tonne of money because they can’t possibly run a cash flow based on the income you receive as a championship team, even those with parachute payments.
 
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