Trevor Birch - Meeting with the Academy on Friday

[Flatulent_Bob]

Not been anywhere near my laptop since the match, but thought I'd post what I was told out of the academy.

On Friday morning Mr Birch called all the academy staff into a meeting to discuss our current situation. He stated as we know that we have been living beyond our means and this has to stop which obviously requires substantial cuts.
He said he wanted another £3 Million off the wage bill although £5 Million would be ideal and they wanted us to be more academy focused.
While dodging the questions about mixed messages, cutting costs while wanting more players to come through he did actually answer one.
One of the coaches raised the question of what is the point of the academy if the manager will never give the young players a chance. Mr Birch replied that it was a good point and one they were aware of.

Personally if we have to go through this period I'd be happier to start bringing more players through, but I don't think Blackwell is the right manager to do it.
He engineers the whole academy lads to be frightened to death of him hardly engaging or being interested in any of their development. He is also happy to go to a match without being able to fill a bench rather than give a token gesture to maybe one of the lads who is working hard.
Obviously the point of the two Kyles will be raised in his defence however I would say he found himself without any other options (Geary and Naysmith crooked, out of the transfer window etc) and it just so happened that they performed straight away and kept their shirts.

 

[raul]

He's basically the new Charles Green isn't he?

 

[super_pig]

bob.. don't forget kyle n. only got in the team as sun was suspended for the karate kick

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

To be honest if we have to feel this pain then this is how I'd like us to do it.

Lets get some home grown youngsters into the team and yes sell them on if that's what we need to do. There are some good kids there ignore the results they've been getting because there are players playing out of their age range and I can't say I rate Mr Fogg to highly. However I'd much rather see someone like Annerson sat on our bench than someone brought in we are never going to play. The only problem with this is Blackwell, who has a real problem with the academy. It's a mutal thing where I don't know a single member of the coaching team or backroom staff who have a nice word for him.
My ray of hope is actually in the fact that Birch acknowledged that there is an issue with the first team management not giving the academy player a chance. To labour the point I made earlier we have been struggling to make a bench this season would it of been too much to reward a youngster who had been doing well for the academy with a token gesture?

From what I was told (from multiple sources) on Saturday it was quite a frank, honest exchange of views where Birch actually seemed to take on the concerns of the academy. The bit that is frightening them is the cost cutting exercise and where the cuts will come plus the usual spiel of cutting costs and working "smarter"

 

[LouTheBlade]

I have been advocating this all season and wish he would have some bottle and bring the young lads in. If the above is the case and people in the academy have no respect for him then he really needs to pack up and leave. Its important for a manager to talk to the academy players and pat them on the back. If they never get any encouragement for the first team manager then they wont apply themselves correctly in the hop of earning a first team place.

If KB doesnt want to take a chance on the youngsters then move him on, because someone will have to do it!

 

[beightonblade]

The whole management structure at BDTBL is wrong hence the waste of serious amounts of money over the last few years.

Highest wages in the league fookin hell ..... the Blades have been shafted.

I wud suggest most Blades wud prefer eager academy yung uns playing than owd crocks/journeymen and overpaid 'superstars'.

 

[LouTheBlade]

If United started to pad the team out with some eager young players then I would accept whatever comes along. I would much rather see a team with 4 or 5 youngsters (who we own) that are struggling in the bottom half, than a team of loanees and journeymen floundering outside the playoffs. Makes little difference to me.

If we could have more of the former a lot of fans would have more patience and encourage the young lads to improve. At least we would have some hope and signs of development from within!

 

[davidpinder]

I think 2 wins all season answers the question on the academy lads. I think the question from birch will be why there not doing great and no one is making it through the ranks. I don't think any manager will ignore good young talent especially if they fetch money in the long run.

http://www.sufc.co.uk/page/AcademyFixtures/0,,10418~1763615,00.html

 

[the magic man]

I actually discussed this on saturday during pre-match drinkies when we were discussing our lack of centre halves/any defenders at all. Surely there's a couple of decent centre halves/defenders playing for the academy. Why not blood one of the youngsters instead of bringing in players on loan who are not good enough (as raised above).

 

[yorkshirecoast]

How much is our wage bill? Cutting another £3m-5m more seems a lot. And if we really do have one of the biggest wage bills in the Championship then that is ludicrous given that we have a small squad and many of the players are, to be honest, piss poor.

 

[davidpinder]

How much is our wage bill? Cutting another £3m-5m more seems a lot. And if we really do have one of the biggest wage bills in the Championship then that is ludicrous given that we have a small squad and many of the players are, to be honest, piss poor.

Piss poor yes but still on possibly on Premiership wages. Monty, Quinn, naysmith to name a few. However you make a good point that 3m-5m does sound a lot.

 

[Darren]

To be honest if we have to feel this pain then this is how I'd like us to do it.

Lets get some home grown youngsters into the team and yes sell them on if that's what we need to do. There are some good kids there ignore the results they've been getting because there are players playing out of their age range and I can't say I rate Mr Fogg to highly. However I'd much rather see someone like Annerson sat on our bench than someone brought in we are never going to play. The only problem with this is Blackwell, who has a real problem with the academy. It's a mutal thing where I don't know a single member of the coaching team or backroom staff who have a nice word for him.
My ray of hope is actually in the fact that Birch acknowledged that there is an issue with the first team management not giving the academy player a chance. To labour the point I made earlier we have been struggling to make a bench this season would it of been too much to reward a youngster who had been doing well for the academy with a token gesture?

From what I was told (from multiple sources) on Saturday it was quite a frank, honest exchange of views where Birch actually seemed to take on the concerns of the academy. The bit that is frightening them is the cost cutting exercise and where the cuts will come plus the usual spiel of cutting costs and working "smarter"

We released Jamie Annerson at the end of last season as he clearly wasn't good enough (21 years old with not a league appearance to his name despite being on loan 3 times at lower league clubs). He is now at Rotherham and yet to play in their first team.

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

I think 2 wins all season answers the question on the academy lads. I think the question from birch will be why there not doing great and no one is making it through the ranks. I don't think any manager will ignore good young talent especially if they fetch money in the long run.

http://www.sufc.co.uk/page/AcademyFixtures/0,,10418~1763615,00.html

The question of the teams results I already covered higher up in the thread.

We have a couple of good youngsters who in the next few years could come through. The thing is you never know which ones will kick on and make it.

Actually the most exciting youngsters side are all about 11/12.

I think we have maybe 8 that could make a squad position or better over the next 2-3 years. But you can never tell if they will become a Nicky Law or a Kyle Naughton until they are given a run.

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

We released Jamie Annerson at the end of last season as he clearly wasn't good enough (21 years old with not a league appearance to his name despite being on loan 3 times at lower league clubs). He is now at Rotherham and yet to play in their first team.

I understand your point Darren, however while we are signing the likes of Harber I would think giving the youngsters a chance to just make the bench would be a nice carrot to go with the stick Blackie likes to use on the kids.

Annerson stagnated terribly while with us, was this entirely down to a lack of ability who knows, but he was a better prospect before his confidence was hammered.

Maybe he was never good enough, maybe he was badly handled. All I know is that the coaching staff believe to a man that Blackwell hasn't given certainly players the chance they deserved at the right time. If you talk to them they don't seem to believe that the Kyles were two on their own head and shoulders above some of the others Blackwell moved on.

How many contracts were given out to the academy players who were leaving last season?
Blackwell has not supported the academy in his battle with Ron Reid and let some potentially decent youngsters go. Once that has happened it isn't easy for them to get back up to this level and prove him wrong in the short term. But I think players like Sharp (not Blackwells fault he didn't sell him) will start to appear around the Championship and below that could of done a job in the squad. Which would of better than buying player like Taylor for example, and forking out agents fee/signing on fees etc.

 

[SouthEssexBlade]

Piss poor yes but still on possibly on Premiership wages. Monty, Quinn, naysmith to name a few. However you make a good point that 3m-5m does sound a lot.

At a very conservative estimate, if we lost those 3 from the wage bill, the saving would be £1.6m

 

[Houso]

Nicky Law is an interesting player for me.

I've always been on the side of the fence that says "If they don't make it when they leave United, then they obviously weren't good enough in the first place".

That said, Nicky Law did 'alright' on the occasions he came in. In terms of performance level, he inhabited the space Stephen Quinn never does; he didn't sparkle, but then he didn't make continual mistakes either. By all accounts, he's a big player now for Roth, though obviously at a lower level.

Would Naughton and Walker have been given the chance and allowed to flourish like they did if it wasn't for injuries? And would they have left and settled for mediocrity in lower league football like so many have done before? My head says no, but I'm not as convinced as I once was.

Maybe it's time for some youngsters on the cusp to be allowed the chance to sink or swim. Is it a case of physical attributes or actual ability?

Bob, you obviously know a fair old bit about the academy. Who do you see coming through? Adams? Foster? Roe? Browne?

 

[LouTheBlade]

Been looking at Academy stuff on our website and seems like there are some promising youngsters in there but they arent old enough for first team duty yet;

George Willis, Goalkeeper; aged 14 - Capped at England Youth level.

Callum McFadzean, Left Back; aged 15 - Capped several times at England Youth level.

These are just two I have seen but we seem to be fielding very young sides in the U18's matches which brings about the concern that our current crop of hopefuls dont seem to be the right age.

 

[shorehamview]

...they arent old enough for first team duty yet...

This is a phrase that is often trotted out by United. What about "if they're good enough they're old enough"? I know that 14 and 15 are a bit young, but United seem to think that 21 is still a development age. Now I can accept that players will still be learning all the time, but surely a 21 year old like Evans for example must have been playing at a high level for several years, even if it is an age-restricted level, like under 18 or under 21. There are many examples of player around the 17-18 mark playing for their first team, but we seem content to let them wait for a few years more.

A few years ago there was a promising crop of youngsters aroud Annerson's age that we were told were only a few years off the first team. Surely Naughton and Walker weren't all of them? Not exactly a bumper crop.

 

[SouthEssexBlade]

Browne, Foster and Wedgbury are 3 that have been highlighted to me by people 'in the know' Bit of a spread there as well, RB, CB and CF

 

[Darren]

I understand your point Darren, however while we are signing the likes of Harber I would think giving the youngsters a chance to just make the bench would be a nice carrot to go with the stick Blackie likes to use on the kids.

Annerson stagnated terribly while with us, was this entirely down to a lack of ability who knows, but he was a better prospect before his confidence was hammered.

Maybe he was never good enough, maybe he was badly handled. All I know is that the coaching staff believe to a man that Blackwell hasn't given certainly players the chance they deserved at the right time. If you talk to them they don't seem to believe that the Kyles were two on their own head and shoulders above some of the others Blackwell moved on.

How many contracts were given out to the academy players who were leaving last season?
Blackwell has not supported the academy in his battle with Ron Reid and let some potentially decent youngsters go. Once that has happened it isn't easy for them to get back up to this level and prove him wrong in the short term. But I think players like Sharp (not Blackwells fault he didn't sell him) will start to appear around the Championship and below that could of done a job in the squad. Which would of better than buying player like Taylor for example, and forking out agents fee/signing on fees etc.

I really can't see that you can argue that Annerson was by any stretch of the imagination ever good enough. Surely if he had any potential at all, the likes of Chesterfield and Rotherham would be playing him in their first team. The fact that, at 21, despite being at 3 league clubs, he has never played a league game, must tell its own story (and I could be wrong, but I think Warnock did put him on the bench in league cup games in 05-06).

 

[Foxy]

Obviously the point of the two Kyles will be raised in his defence however I would say he found himself without any other options (Geary and Naysmith crooked, out of the transfer window etc) and it just so happened that they performed straight away and kept their shirts.

bob.. don't forget kyle n. only got in the team as sun was suspended for the karate kick

Whilst I'd love to see more coming through, I think you are being a little harsh on Blackwell here.

Both Kyle's had already been placed in and around the first team squad, used in friendlies and spoke about in a positive way.

Whether or not they'd have broken through as quickly without injury we'll never know, but they were placed into the "first team squad" environment long before.

A few of the more promising ones I've seen in recent years have been hindered by injury problems.

I'd agree that Wedgbury, Foster, Brown, McFadzean look promising. I've also been impressed by Maguire when I've seen him.

 

[bricktop]

I don't think United have had a paticularly bad record over the last 12-13 years with regards to youngsters coming through the ranks.

We've brought through Wayne Quinn, Curtis Woodhouse, Michael Tonge, Phil Jagielka, Nick Montgomery, Kyle Walker and Kyle Naughton who have gone on to be reasonably successful.

I'd love to see a list of someone can oblige of home grown players who have made at least one first team appearance (start or bench) during the last 25 years.

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

Been looking at Academy stuff on our website and seems like there are some promising youngsters in there but they arent old enough for first team duty yet;

George Willis, Goalkeeper; aged 14 - Capped at England Youth level.

Callum McFadzean, Left Back; aged 15 - Capped several times at England Youth level.

These are just two I have seen but we seem to be fielding very young sides in the U18's matches which brings about the concern that our current crop of hopefuls dont seem to be the right age.

To be honest I don't go and watch them anywhere near enough to be reliable source however I do know a couple of the coaches, and a couple of the backroom team (physio's etc). If 2nd hand information is ok for you I don't mind posting what they have told me.

Everyone knows about Callum, who will be a real treasure (yes that we will probably sell on after a season or so). At this stage in his development he look like he has all the ability shown by the Kyles and is very similar in styles.
However we are talking about a very young player, and I wouldn't think we would be seeing him for 2-3 seasons and that is if he continues at the rate he has shown upto now. You have to keep in mind that Callum has only just broke into the Academy side this month which is a big achievement for a kid just turned 16 (January I think).

Troy Pennycooke-Morgan is another one who looks comfortable in the academy team he is quick with a decent finish. However forwards are difficult to predict and scoring at this level is a world away from professional football even at the lower leagues. Personally from the little I've seen I don't think he will make it at our level, but I'm happy to be wrong. Just thought I'd mention him because there was something about him in Saturday's programme.

The other issue is when you do get a real gem coming through at a young age all the big guns are also aware of him and are just waiting to snap them up. (See Jacob Mellis)


Foxy for me I think Blackwell is a safety first type of manager and won't risk them. I just don't believe he wants to use the academy which was heightened during his spat with Reid. Unless you can think of a reason why we didn't fill the bench earlier this season when the academy players were all available that weekend.

 

[Darren]

I don't think United have had a paticularly bad record over the last 12-13 years with regards to youngsters coming through the ranks.

We've brought through Wayne Quinn, Curtis Woodhouse, Michael Tonge, Phil Jagielka, Nick Montgomery, Kyle Walker and Kyle Naughton who have gone on to be reasonably successful.

I'd love to see a list of someone can oblige of home grown players who have made at least one first team appearance (start or bench) during the last 25 years.

Go on then...

League Appearances since 1985

Paddy McGeeney
Jeff Eckhardt
Lee Walshaw
David Frain
Clive Mendonca
Chris Marsden
Chris Downes
Paul Wood
Dane Whitehouse
Mitch Ward
Richard Lucas
John Reed
Graham Anthony
Steve Hawes
Tony Battersby
Chris Bettney
Wayne Quinn
Curtis Woodhouse
Lee Morris
Adam Burley
Ben Doane
Phil Jagielka
Colin Cryan
Nick Montgomery
Michael Tonge
Ryan Mallon
Lewis Killeen
Kevan Hurst
Jonathan Forte
Billy Sharp
Stephen Quinn
Nicky Law
Kyle Naughton
Kyle Walker

The following played in cups but not in the league

Ashley Fickling
Tyrone Thompson
Ian Ross
Colin Marrison
Kyle McFadzean
Evan Horwood
Jordan Robertson
Aymen Tahar

I think that's everyone....

 

[bricktop]

There are some names to conjure with there.

Its interesting to note from Mitch Ward to Wayne Quinn, in 7 or 8 years there was hardly anyone progressing from the youth acadmey to becoming first team regulars.

One who i thought at the time would have a good career in the game was John Reed who ended up with a had knee injury and ended up packing it in young.

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

Sorry Darren, never answered your point earlier.
Jamie was probably a bad example to use as I would accept that maybe he wasn't good enough. The point was at the same time were were bringing in Harber to the club and giving a youngster a go on the bench would of been more productive to the playing staff than Harber's "signing".

Blackie very rarely watches the academy players, yet the final decision is always made by him. How can he makes these decisions and what do he base them on? I even have heard from a very good source that one player last season was set to be released by Blackwell and only a personal phone call from Ron Reid to McCabe stopped him from being released as all the academy staff rated this lad. Obviously this could be hearsay and nonsense from an area of the club which is quite anti-Blackwell but true or not it highlights the point that the 1st team manager has some bridges to build as the current situation can't be in the best interests of the club.
Personally I'd like Speed to be sent to watch more academy games, at least then someone on the first team staff would have a good knowledge of the youngsters and be able to give an qualified opinion.

 

[LouTheBlade]

To be honest I don't go and watch them anywhere near enough to be reliable source however I do know a couple of the coaches, and a couple of the backroom team (physio's etc). If 2nd hand information is ok for you I don't mind posting what they have told me.

Everyone knows about Callum, who will be a real treasure (yes that we will probably sell on after a season or so). At this stage in his development he look like he has all the ability shown by the Kyles and is very similar in styles.
However we are talking about a very young player, and I wouldn't think we would be seeing him for 2-3 seasons and that is if he continues at the rate he has shown upto now. You have to keep in mind that Callum has only just broke into the Academy side this month which is a big achievement for a kid just turned 16 (January I think).

Troy Pennycooke-Morgan is another one who looks comfortable in the academy team he is quick with a decent finish. However forwards are difficult to predict and scoring at this level is a world away from professional football even at the lower leagues. Personally from the little I've seen I don't think he will make it at our level, but I'm happy to be wrong. Just thought I'd mention him because there was something about him in Saturday's programme.

The other issue is when you do get a real gem coming through at a young age all the big guns are also aware of him and are just waiting to snap them up.


Foxy for me I think Blackwell is a safety first type of manager and won't risk them. I just don't believe he wants to use the academy which was heightened during his spat with Reid. Unless you can think of a reason why we didn't fill the bench earlier this season when the academy players were all available that weekend.

Im always interested to hear what you have Bob you always seem to have good sources so would like to know more about our academy as I know fairly little. I'm glad to hear we have another promising full back. His appearance in a couple of years might soften the blow of the two Kyle's going on to greater things by then.

Youre right about the goalscorers at academy level and its similar for players of all positions. I used to play academy football and I found it relatively comfortable in the midfield and centre half role but when I played a reserve team game I found a massive difference. Because I was playing with some first team players the tempo was frantic and although I acquitted myself well on the night it was a world away from playing in the youth teams. You then only have to think what the step up to the first team would be!

 

[Darren]

There are some names to conjure with there.

Its interesting to note from Mitch Ward to Wayne Quinn, in 7 or 8 years there was hardly anyone progressing from the youth acadmey to becoming first team regulars.

One who i thought at the time would have a good career in the game was John Reed who ended up with a had knee injury and ended up packing it in young.

Can't believe I missed Quinn off the list!

Corrected now...

 

[shorehamview]

Im always interested to hear what you have Bob you always seem to have good sources so would like to know more about our academy as I know fairly little......

You ought to go up. I've not been for a while, but it's worth the trip. Free football of a decent standard is not to be sniffed at.

 

[Chingo]

Darren Paul Wood was bought from Brighton mate .

I love seeing kids coming through but ... Southampton went down the route of using kids in their relegation season , 1 or 2 at a time maybe ok but it doesn't pay to be too reliant on kids IMO.