The fork in the road

[Balham]

After the feeble capitulation at Huish Park on Monday I have to admit that I didn't feel anything. This is the club that I have supported through all the trials and tribulations of the last 25ish years and I'm getting to the point now where I'm not bothered by a 2-0 defeat at Yeovil.

As I see it, the club has two choices.

1) We carry on as we did this season. Give ageing journeymen a final payday and hope that their "experience", "nous" and "know-how" can inspire us to grind out 25 1-0 wins next season. Not going to happen.

2) Bite the bullet and really change the direction of the club: do as Charlton did two years ago. Chris Powell said at the time that there was an air of defeatism at the Valley which necessitated a complete change in playing staff.

There are several threads on this subject in the forum already but my twopenneth:

Keep:
GKs: Long*, Howard, Willis - we're lucky that we have three competent goalkeepers

DF: Collins*, Hill, Kennedy, Maguire*, Flynn

MF: McFadzean, McDonald, Whitehouse, Harriot

FW: Ironside, Porter, Murphy, Miller

Release:
DF: McMahon, Westlake, LJF, Higginbotham

MF: Doyle, Robson

FW: Kitson, Cresswell,

Sell if value offered: *Maguire (£2m+ add ons), *Long (£1.5m + add ons), *Collins (£500k)

Redeploy:
Flynn: I'd play Flynn at right back. His defensive work is usually praised and I think he's got the work rate to be a success there.
Murphy: not a success on the wing, I think we'd get more out of his pace and directness if he played up front. Unfortunately, Morgan's gameplan revolved around "gerritforrad" and called for two big forwards. The dinosaur is dead; hoofball should be too.
McFadzean: would he be a success at left back?

Sign:
1x left back - pacy, able to overlap. I think Bergen's mentioned Evan Horwood; while he's not the quickest he's still a good call.
1x centre half - with pace
1x right back - see left back
1x CM - athletic; in the mould of Diagouraga at Brentford, who signed him on a free.
1x RW - pacy winger. Britt Assombalonga of Watford maybe?
1x LM - technically good. Someone like Luke Freeman (Stevenage) or Harry Forrester (Brentford)
1x CF - again, with pace. Nakhi Wells of Bradford? Chuks Aneke of Arsenal? Benik Afobe on loan?

I'd also look to move to a 4-3-3. Sign full backs who can overlap and take the game to the opposition. Play Porter in the middle with Murphy and Miller off him; De Girolamo can fit into this formation too when he's back.

Finally I'd give Harriot more of a chance. Every time I've seen him he's impressed with his ability to pass to a teammate. However, we've had managers who have preferred to pair a spoiler with McDonald - an outdated tactic.

Some fans have argued that the manager must have had a reason to not play the younger members of the squad. I think this season provides a final answer in that debate: the experienced players haven't been successful, have they?

Manager:
Someone capable of noticing when the original plan isn't working and able to make changes to turn a game. I don't care about arm waving; what I want to see is a manager who can think on his feet and turn the tide of a game.

 

[blade too long]

cutlery related post in sheffield shocker

 

[super_pig]

Someone capable of noticing when the original plan isn't working and able to make changes to turn a game. I don't care about arm waving; what I want to see is a manager who can think on his feet and turn the tide of a game.

agreed.. there seem to be two types of manager
1. former pro's who know all the ins and outs. the training and the running of the club .. but many are clueless when it comes to tactics.. pick 11 players who fit the slots and hope for the best
2. the tacticians.. none of the top five managers in the EPL have played at the highest levels.. yet they have tactical nous. it was interesting watching chelsea last week .. benitez was constantly shouting orders and changing formations.. his substitutions made sense and weren't in the DW mould of .. 'its 60 mins in.. i'm *supposed* to make a substitution whether it is required or not so it seems like i know what i'm doing'.. i once saw Mourinho make a substitution after 15 mins and change the game.. did DW *ever* change the game with a substitution??

 

[Silent Blade]

After the feeble capitulation at Huish Park on Monday I have to admit that I didn't feel anything. .

I felt that it was better to lose in the semi final than to lose at Wembley. Brentford are easily the best opposition I have seen at the Lane this season and I couldnt see us beating them at Wembley (I wasnt that impressed with Yeovil and it would surprise me greatly if they win at Wembley). I suppose I was more relieved than disappointed. When Doyle said that not going up isnt an underachievement I was so disappointed with him and he is the worst captain we have ever had

 

[Guesty]

I felt that it was better to lose in the semi final than to lose at Wembley. Brentford are easily the best opposition I have seen at the Lane this season and I couldnt see us beating them at Wembley (I wasnt that impressed with Yeovil and it would surprise me greatly if they win at Wembley). I suppose I was more relieved than disappointed. When Doyle said that not going up isnt an underachievement I was so disappointed with him and he is the worst captain we have ever had

Silent, you weren't watching the match at The Old Monk by any chance were you?

 

[Silent Blade]

Silent, you weren't watching the match at The Old Monk by any chance were you?

No, I was with my son (who played snooker with his mates) at the Talbot in Dronfield Woodhouse

 

[Guesty]

Ah ok, I only ask because there were a few deaf lads of about your age just in front of me (I have that right, don't I?). Thought it could have been you.

 

[Silent Blade]

They did ask me to come there but my son is 15 year old (despite that he is now taller than me) and Old Monk wouldnt allow him there

 

[Guesty]

Ah I thought you might know the gentlemen in question!

Am I right in thinking you know Pete Bishop too, by the way?

 

[Silent Blade]

Ah I thought you might know the gentlemen in question!

Am I right in thinking you know Pete Bishop too, by the way?

Yes, played in the same football team as him between 1982 and 1986. I get on well with him although we have not seen each other much lately. Like me he is a family man! His two brothers and his one sister are top people!

 

[oaklandrdblade]

agreed.. there seem to be two types of manager
1. former pro's who know all the ins and outs. the training and the running of the club .. but many are clueless when it comes to tactics.. pick 11 players who fit the slots and hope for the best
2. the tacticians.. none of the top five managers in the EPL have played at the highest levels.. yet they have tactical nous. it was interesting watching chelsea last week .. benitez was constantly shouting orders and changing formations.. his substitutions made sense and weren't in the DW mould of .. 'its 60 mins in.. i'm *supposed* to make a substitution whether it is required or not so it seems like i know what i'm doing'.. i once saw Mourinho make a substitution after 15 mins and change the game.. did DW *ever* change the game with a substitution??

We were talking about this today at work, and were saying part of the problem for more gifted players can sometimes be that they do not have to think how they do something it's just second nature.

 

[Ashtonsmashton]

After the feeble capitulation at Huish Park on Monday I have to admit that I didn't feel anything. This is the club that I have supported through all the trials and tribulations of the last 25ish years and I'm getting to the point now where I'm not bothered by a 2-0 defeat at Yeovil.

As I see it, the club has two choices.

1) We carry on as we did this season. Give ageing journeymen a final payday and hope that their "experience", "nous" and "know-how" can inspire us to grind out 25 1-0 wins next season. Not going to happen.

2) Bite the bullet and really change the direction of the club: do as Charlton did two years ago. Chris Powell said at the time that there was an air of defeatism at the Valley which necessitated a complete change in playing staff.

There are several threads on this subject in the forum already but my twopenneth:

Keep:
GKs: Long*, Howard, Willis - we're lucky that we have three competent goalkeepers

DF: Collins*, Hill, Kennedy, Maguire*, Flynn

MF: McFadzean, McDonald, Whitehouse, Harriot

FW: Ironside, Porter, Murphy, Miller

Release:
DF: McMahon, Westlake, LJF, Higginbotham

MF: Doyle, Robson

FW: Kitson, Cresswell,

Sell if value offered: *Maguire (£2m+ add ons), *Long (£1.5m + add ons), *Collins (£500k)

Redeploy:
Flynn: I'd play Flynn at right back. His defensive work is usually praised and I think he's got the work rate to be a success there.
Murphy: not a success on the wing, I think we'd get more out of his pace and directness if he played up front. Unfortunately, Morgan's gameplan revolved around "gerritforrad" and called for two big forwards. The dinosaur is dead; hoofball should be too.
McFadzean: would he be a success at left back?

Sign:
1x left back - pacy, able to overlap. I think Bergen's mentioned Evan Horwood; while he's not the quickest he's still a good call.
1x centre half - with pace
1x right back - see left back
1x CM - athletic; in the mould of Diagouraga at Brentford, who signed him on a free.
1x RW - pacy winger. Britt Assombalonga of Watford maybe?
1x LM - technically good. Someone like Luke Freeman (Stevenage) or Harry Forrester (Brentford)
1x CF - again, with pace. Nakhi Wells of Bradford? Chuks Aneke of Arsenal? Benik Afobe on loan?

I'd also look to move to a 4-3-3. Sign full backs who can overlap and take the game to the opposition. Play Porter in the middle with Murphy and Miller off him; De Girolamo can fit into this formation too when he's back.

Finally I'd give Harriot more of a chance. Every time I've seen him he's impressed with his ability to pass to a teammate. However, we've had managers who have preferred to pair a spoiler with McDonald - an outdated tactic.

Some fans have argued that the manager must have had a reason to not play the younger members of the squad. I think this season provides a final answer in that debate: the experienced players haven't been successful, have they?

Manager:
Someone capable of noticing when the original plan isn't working and able to make changes to turn a game. I don't care about arm waving; what I want to see is a manager who can think on his feet and turn the tide of a game.

have you been playing to much fifa?

 

[Guesty]

Yes, played in the same football team as him between 1982 and 1986. I get on well with him although we have not seen each other much lately. Like me he is a family man! His two brothers and his one sister are top people!

They are indeed! I know Alan quite well, I think he may have also played? Steve I haven't seen for a while as I'm afraid he jacked in coming to matches after our latest relegation.

 

[BladeInThatcham]

I stopped reading when I saw you keep Porter in the strikers section. If you truely believe that he is a player we should keep then there's something wrong with you.
Ironside isn't good enough at the moment either - he needs to be sent on loan to either conference or league 2. I reckon Whitehouse probably needs the same.

 

[super_pig]

Ironside isn't good enough at the moment either - he needs to be sent on loan to either conference or league 2. I reckon Whitehouse probably needs the same.

they may as well stay here then

 

[Silent Blade]

They are indeed! I know Alan quite well, I think he may have also played? Steve I haven't seen for a while as I'm afraid he jacked in coming to matches after our latest relegation.

Alan and Steve played some games for my team (I would say Alan was the better player) Last time I saw all the three brothers was on Xmas Eve at the rail station. I was going to work and they along with one or two friends were on the way for a piss up in Lincoln!

 

[Hartley Hare]

Well. I just got back from Somerset. Drowned my sorrows with pints of Otter Ale and Butcombe bitter and jolly nice it was too.

I thought we would grab a draw at Yeovil. The early goal was a disaster. They had numerous chances and we had a few. The writing was on the wall in the second half. Had most entertainment berating the shocking linesman in the first half, miles behind play.

I have come to the conclusion that most of our players are just not good enough. I am sure they try their best but they have come up short again.

The time has come for a three year plan. Invest in some new hungry younger players to complement the ones we have. To be realistic and not expect to go up until the team takes shape and gains experiance. This will also ensure we have a team ready for the championship. I would be prepared to sell Long and use this money.

Ironside needs more time and maybe should go on loan at a lower level to score goals. Miller will be back and he should start with Porter. Kitson and Forte to go. De Girolamo to join first team squad and play.

Murphy should be tried up front and Mcfadzean should be first on the teamsheet.

I think Hill should be back up to Maguire and Collins in defence. We need new full backs.

LJF, Higginbotham to go, McMahon perhaps to stay as support.

Now the hard part midfield. Flynn is too lightweight we need a new winger with pace. We also need a gritty midfielder to assume the Doyle role and be prepared to drop Mcdonald from time to time when he is not performing, he has had a very disappointing season and I suspect this is more to do with the players around him (lack of outlets).

Robson will probably leave. I don't know enough about the young midfielders at the club maybe they should all get a chance to play, try a few different formations.

Next year will be harder than this. Wolves, Peterborough, Coventry and maybe Yeovil or Brentford plus Swindon.

Let's be honest, if we had won we would have been doomed in the championship.

HH

 

[bartman]

Sell if value offered: *Maguire (£2m+ add ons), *Long (£1.5m + add ons), *Collins (£500k)

I don't think Maguire is worth anywhere near that. I think we would be lucky to get more than £500k for him. The same goes for Long who is an average keeper at the moment at League 1 level and i don't think we would get more than £250k for hum.

As for Collins,worth about £100k max I reckon.

Remember these are League 1 players who haven't exactly over-excelled this season

 

[Rudders]

We should

As for Collins,worth about £100k max I reckon.

Remember these are League 1 players who haven't exactly over-excelled this season

If we could get £100k for Collins we should snap their hand and arms off and get the car ready to drive to wherever they want him.

 

[Silent Blade]

The same goes for Long who is an average keeper at the moment at League 1 level and i don't think we would get more than £250k for hum.

I disagree. He is worth more than £1M. Man U were interested in him last year. Long may have made mistakes but his shot stopping is excellent and in the next few years he will "iron out" his few weaknesses (such as decision making in coming out of goal, the understanding between himself and defence). Keepers are like wine, they get better with age and I am confident that Long will play in a higher division (hopefully with us)

 

[Balham]

I stopped reading when I saw you keep Porter in the strikers section. If you truely believe that he is a player we should keep then there's something wrong with you.
Ironside isn't good enough at the moment either - he needs to be sent on loan to either conference or league 2. I reckon Whitehouse probably needs the same.

I'm impressed that you read that far, el Dinglo.

In an ideal world, I'd advocate getting rid of pretty much the entire squad and starting again but the financial situation at the club won't let us do that.

Porter is the least selfish striker we've got. Part of the reason that Miller looked so good in that spell leading up to his injury was the support he got from Porter.

I agree about Ironside; we should be having a word with Cresswell in his new role as player-coach at York about getting him some gametime there. Whitehouse I'd keep at the Lane: if he gets a decent pre-season in I think he'll be an asset.

I disagree. He is worth more than £1M. Man U were interested in him last year. Long may have made mistakes but his shot stopping is excellent and in the next few years he will "iron out" his few weaknesses (such as decision making in coming out of goal, the understanding between himself and defence). Keepers are like wine, they get better with age and I am confident that Long will play in a higher division (hopefully with us)

Nail. On. Head.
Long has the attributes to be a top goalkeeper. He needs to work on his decision making and confidence in his ability but the signs are there.

bartman your valuations are the kind of fees which would rightly get United fans up in arms. I've put aspirational numbers against some of the key players in our team at the moment; fees which would relieve the financial pressure and allow some proper restructuring of the side.

 

[GRUMPY BLADE]

Well. I just got back from Somerset. Drowned my sorrows with pints of Otter Ale and Butcombe bitter and jolly nice it was too.

I thought we would grab a draw at Yeovil. The early goal was a disaster. They had numerous chances and we had a few. The writing was on the wall in the second half. Had most entertainment berating the shocking linesman in the first half, miles behind play.

I have come to the conclusion that most of our players are just not good enough. I am sure they try their best but they have come up short again.

The time has come for a three year plan. Invest in some new hungry younger players to complement the ones we have. To be realistic and not expect to go up until the team takes shape and gains experiance. This will also ensure we have a team ready for the championship. I would be prepared to sell Long and use this money.

Ironside needs more time and maybe should go on loan at a lower level to score goals. Miller will be back and he should start with Porter. Kitson and Forte to go. De Girolamo to join first team squad and play.

Murphy should be tried up front and Mcfadzean should be first on the teamsheet.

I think Hill should be back up to Maguire and Collins in defence. We need new full backs.

LJF, Higginbotham to go, McMahon perhaps to stay as support.

Now the hard part midfield. Flynn is too lightweight we need a new winger with pace. We also need a gritty midfielder to assume the Doyle role and be prepared to drop Mcdonald from time to time when he is not performing, he has had a very disappointing season and I suspect this is more to do with the players around him (lack of outlets).

Robson will probably leave. I don't know enough about the young midfielders at the club maybe they should all get a chance to play, try a few different formations.

Next year will be harder than this. Wolves, Peterborough, Coventry and maybe Yeovil or Brentford plus Swindon.

Let's be honest, if we had won we would have been doomed in the championship.

HH

WOW

 

[blade too long]

Long has been , for a 19 year old , in the most difficult position in any squad been outstanding
Goal keeping its its nature is one where even the slightest mistake gets punished and all the responsibility falls upon the keeper, a forward can miss a sitter and it doesnt get remembered, anyone who catalogues Longs mistakes and pins blame on him are being more than harsh on a player in his first full season as a pro.
The fact keepers at the top produce magic moments like these