The curse of Utd

[northsomersetblade]

Clearly I'm not as up on my United history as I thought I was, so please excuse me...but what happened in 1994?

I was 3 at the time, you see!

Sit through this is if you can....the softest penalty you will ever see (11.15), the Wimbledon midfield and defence back pedalling from Barry Horne (20.20) and then Anders Limpar all game and (22.44) Hans Seegers diving over the ball when he could have saved it by sticking his knob out. Throw in Dean Unsworth doing his best to miss three sitters and the Fashanu/Seegers trial, where incredibly they were aquitted, and then you see why we are so annoyed. But it's not bad luck, it's just cheating. There is no curse. With hard work and Tuftyness we will rise again

 

[zablade]

I think it's because all football clubs experience ups and downs in relation to the level of success they could reasonably expect given the club's size, financial circumstances etc.

Six years in the third division has been a low point for us, but others have experienced worse. We've had periods of relative success prior to that, and we will again.

There is no curse We have as good a chance as any other club to live up to our potential.

There's no curse I agree with that.

it should straight forward for a club of our side to get out of League 1 the template has been set multiple times in recent seasons. Forest. Southampton. Leeds. Pigs. Wolves even Wigan. Flex some financial muscle.

Our board do not want to do that for some reason. That's why we are here and likely to stay here for the foreseeable.

 

[Silent Blade]

If we'd have won we;d have stayed up.

A draw would have been good enough for us to stay up. Mark Stein scored the winner in injury time. A minute earlier Dennis Wise made a poor cross that was cleared away but his cross that set up Stein's winner was flicked on by Hoddle's head in the penalty box (Hoddle isnt known for aerial challenges in the penalty box).

The ref missed a clear penalty for Blackburn when Dave Linighan of Ipswich handled in the 70th minute. Had the ref awarded the penalty then Shearer would have scored to send Ipswich down

 

[HodgysBrokenThumb]

We all have our memories of 1994. I was watching Grandstand, which kept updating the league table as the scores changed. Probably false memory syndrome, but we seemed to be nearer mid-table than bottom at 4.15, and then scores from all around the country began to send us down towards that last relegation spot, which was achieved in the final minute of the season. Whereas in 1981 against Walsall, we were in the last relegation spot for about 10 minutes in the entire season, but would have escaped in the final minute if... no, too painful to write it.

 

[HodgysBrokenThumb]

But on a positive note, perhaps United over-achieved between 1899 and 1925 (or even 1936), and it has averaged out since with the 13 year curse and zero success rate in play-offs. Maybe the good times are returning (a dangerous thing to say just before kick-off).

 

[8lade]

I was talking to a Liverpool fan tonight and he tried to equate Everton's domestic success in the 80s curtailed by Liverpool's hooliganism to our suffering by blatant cheating. I wish I could be a fan of another club for a day to look at us objectively.

I'd forgotten about that (I remember thinking at the time EUFA had banned all English clubs as we were winning everything), I'd say this is worse. Imagine wednesday being instrumental in our downfall - doesn't bare thinking about.
Examples of other clubs being cheated by the footballing authorities are Middlesborough and Swindon, I think something happened to Luton too (multiple point deductions until they were out of the league but that's a bit hazy).

 

[oldblade]

We got relegated to fuck.

Lost 3-2 at Chelsea and some dodgy shit happened with Everton v Wimbledon allowing them both to stay up at our expense.

Summat like that, I was only 8 myself.

I think we were 2-1 up in that match with only about a quarter of an hour to go. Stein's winner for Chelsea came right at the death. Our failure to close that game out when ahead with so little time left against a side that had nothing to play for was almost criminal.

 

[oldblade]

I'd forgotten about that (I remember thinking at the time EUFA had banned all English clubs as we were winning everything), I'd say this is worse. Imagine wednesday being instrumental in our downfall - doesn't bare thinking about.
Examples of other clubs being cheated by the footballing authorities are Middlesborough and Swindon, I think something happened to Luton too (multiple point deductions until they were out of the league but that's a bit hazy).

Luton had a 30 point deduction, which pretty much guaranteed their relegation out of the football league. I think Rotherham had a pretty hefty points deduction as well in that same season. I think it was 17 points.

 

[PokerBlade]

Strange how these odd statistics happen. A friend of mine at work is a Southend United fan. They had a good November, going unbeaten. Then he mentioned that this didn't come as too much of a shock as they haven't been beaten in November for seven years!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_sharpshooter_fallacy

Watch as my cynicism destroys any magic in the world.

 

[blade too long]

Has anyone ever successfully conveyed the life of a Blade over the last 20+ years to a neutral fan?

It's impossible to explain 1994, 2007 and 2012 without being laughed at. I wouldn't mind if I could inflict the same on them and be indifferent to their reactions.

yes portsmouth fans must laugh their socks off
Coventry fans are hysterical

 

[Punk Blade]

yes portsmouth fans must laugh their socks off
Coventry fans are hysterical

Remind me how Portsmouth have suffered the consequences of others cheating and ridiculous circumstances.

 

[cahill]

I think it's because all football clubs experience ups and downs in relation to the level of success they could reasonably expect given the club's size, financial circumstances etc.

Six years in the third division has been a low point for us, but others have experienced worse. We've had periods of relative success prior to that, and we will again.

There is no curse. We have as good a chance as any other club to live up to our potential.

"Relative success" ! When you consider, the likes of Luton, Swindon, Oxford, Tranmere, Oldham, have either won Cups or at least played in a final I'm struggling with our "relative" success

 

[blade too long]

“Which clubs have experienced the most ups and downs in their histories?”

1 Grimsby Town, Notts County 30

3 Birmingham City 29

4 Doncaster Rovers 27

5 Bolton Wanderers, Leicester City 26

7 Cardiff City 25 2014 - Related to Championship

8 Port Vale, Sheffield Wednesday, 11 ups 13 downs Preston North End 24

11 Lincoln City, Bristol City 23
we got relegated so what
middlesboro went down because of a flu bug
they told the league they didnt have enough to fulfil a fixture but got docked the points that would have kept them up
every relegation story carries a hard luck story

we dont even come close in the ups and downs race

 

[Punk Blade]

“Which clubs have experienced the most ups and downs in their histories?”

1 Grimsby Town, Notts County 30

3 Birmingham City 29

4 Doncaster Rovers 27

5 Bolton Wanderers, Leicester City 26

7 Cardiff City 25 2014 - Related to Championship

8 Port Vale, Sheffield Wednesday, 11 ups 13 downs Preston North End 24

11 Lincoln City, Bristol City 23
we got relegated so what
middlesboro went down because of a flu bug
they told the league they didnt have enough to fulfil a fixture but got docked the points that would have kept them up
every relegation story carries a hard luck story

we dont even come close in the ups and downs race

What has total promotions and relegations got to do with anything?

Middlesbrough were relegated because the Premier League correctly applied its own rules. We were relegated because the Premier League refused to apply its own rules. If Middlesbrough had sent a team of kids to Blackburn and lost 10-0 they'd have stayed up. Had the league not deducted points for failing to fulfil the fixture, then in this comparison Boro would have been West Ham and whoever would have gone down instead would have been us. That 'hard luck story' never happened because the PL applied its rules correctly.

 

[Aston max]

Wimbledon didn't stay up at our expense they were safe.

Think Silent Blade or Revolution have posted a chronological version of events on that day on here in the past.

To this day I have never re watched the Chelsea goals. Nor the Wigan ones.

I feel the same about givens penalty

 

[blade too long]

What has total promotions and relegations got to do with anything?

Middlesbrough were relegated because the Premier League correctly applied its own rules. We were relegated because the Premier League refused to apply its own rules. If Middlesbrough had sent a team of kids to Blackburn and lost 10-0 they'd have stayed up. Had the league not deducted points for failing to fulfil the fixture, then in this comparison Boro would have been West Ham and whoever would have gone down instead would have been us. That 'hard luck story' never happened because the PL applied its rules correctly.

was very harsh, theyd doctors certificates to cover all the first team squad
they acted then how they should have for west ham

but we were relegated for being too defensive
going to villa trying to get a draw, blew a 9 point advantage through losing when it matttered
losing at home to wigan ,,,, unforgivable

 

[nicksufc]

A neat summary of our perennial failures:

We last reached a major cup final in 1936 (when we lost in the FA Cup final to Arsenal). “Since then we have failed in five FA Cup semis (1961, 1993, 1998, 2003 and 2014) and two League Cup semis (2003 and 2015 – the latter against Spurs). We have also been to the play-offs eight times (1988, 1997, 1998, 2003, 2009, 2012, 2013 and 2015), without winning any of them.

 

[WorkingtonBlade]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_sharpshooter_fallacy

Watch as my cynicism destroys any magic in the world.

Indeed. There are no curses, and no miracles. Just the relentless march of probability which dictates that, given enough data, there will always be concurrences which appear unlikely in isolation.

Having said that, the results of a football team don't come about by the roll of dice. If a belief becomes established amongst any group that they are particularly prone to failure, then it can become a self-fulfilling prophecy by affecting confidence and self-belief. We even have songs about it:

"we've the famous Sheff United and we're shit at Wembley"

"we will fight forever more, because of boxing day"

That isn't a criticism of the fans in any way. How many of us can claim that we turn up at Wembley without all those past failures running through our minds? It's almost impossible to avoid it. But if that runs through the club (and how could it not?) and instead of thinking "we will do this" the team and fans start the game thinking "please, let's not cock this up again" then that puts us on the back foot from the start.

The biggest challenge at United is to instil a winning mentality, rather than being weighed down by our history - or a perception of it. That's not just the manager's or the chairman's job - everyone's got to play their part in changing the mentality of the club as a whole.

 

[HodgysBrokenThumb]

Of course I know that there is no curse; logically it makes no sense at all. But sport is also about emotion. I can see that 8 play-off failures is not outrageous statistically (the average success rate is presumably 1 in 4), but it must be the worst of any league club? The 13-year 'curse' is hard to comprehend - can anyone give the odds against that happening? And if the same situation arises in May 2020... No, it can't, can it?