The Championship - alternative tactics needed?

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Champagneblade

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To mock a little the phrase used for Pep "don't tell me Chris Wilder hasn't had an influence on the Championship."

Of the 22 teams yesterday in the Championship, 12 played with three at the back and one of those not playing also play that way. It's not clear which, if any, have had the cheek to attempt overlapping centre backs!

Interestingly, the three relegated teams, 2 of which are top 2, play 4 at the back. If you also include Brentford, it means the 4 out of the top 6 points per game teams, so allowing for games in hand, play with a back 4 and the top 3 on ppg, do too.

So we are potentially different if we retain the overlaps but many will be matching up with us in terms of system, allowing for marginal variations though this season's top 3 successes play with a flat back 4.

Now when extolling the virtues of Italian diets, Ron Atkinson once said something to the effect of "yes, and the crap teams at the bottom also eat pasta too!" And to this effect, it's fair to point out that the bottom 7 all played a version of 3-5-2 in their last match.

You could conclude therefore that 10/13 of the 3-5-2 teams will remain, assuming continuity season to season, an assumption which has its limitations. Interestingly, none of the League One top 6 plays 3 at the back. Add back in ourselves and you have 11/24, assumption on us, of course but still significantly higher than a few years ago I'd estimate.

Latest line ups were:
4-2-3-1: Bournemouth, Norwich City, Nottingham Forest, Reading
4-3-3: Watford, Brentford, Blackburn Rovers
4-4-2: Middleborough, Bristol City
4-1-2-1-2 (diamond): Preston North End
4-3-1-2: Luton Town
3-5-2: Stoke City, Millwall, Huddersfield Town
3-1-4-2: Rotherham United
3-4-1-2: Birmingham, Swansea, Sheffield Wednesday
3-4-2-1: Cardiff City, Derby County, QPR, Coventry City, Barnsley
5-4-1: Wycombe Wanderers

Any thoughts?
 

Yep.

1. We don't play 3-5-2. We haven't for quite some time. It is all about the 5-3-2, which was ostensibly Wilder's 'plan B' if we were defending heavily against an attacking, more skilful team.

2. 3-5-2/5-3-2 is a busted flush now, even with the much vaunted 'overlapping centre backs'. It is because we don't have overlapping centre backs any more. Whoever plays in the RCB/LCB position doesn't venture much up the pitch because we are tremendously weak in possession in midfield and are much more likely to turn the ball over and leave us outnumbered. None of the midfielders are good at defending either so if the RWB/RCB combination (for example) are caught high up the pitch, none of the midfield has the potatoes to stop any counter. This season has this flaw writ large on many matches.

3. Our failings in 3-5-2/5-3-2 have been covered in my diagrammatic 'Where we are going wrong' posting. Oppositions have it covered now and see it coming because we are apt to give the ball to Norwood (who can be easily dispossessed if he gets too long on the ball) who looks for the Hollywood pass to an advancing wingback. They drop and collect this or better still, stick two extra players out wide if it looks like that is where it is going. I don't think any goals this season have come from where we played it up the wing into a crossing position (where we are now reluctant to cross anyway) with the only possible exception of Didsy's goal v Chelsea at Stamford Bridge

4. Next season, all Championship clubs will have watched a fuck-tonne of footage of this season and made detailed notes how to counter and beat us

5. We need a new approach and first principles of 4-4-2 is a good place to start. The Wilder days are over.

pommpey
 
Thanks for the reply - I'm up early and you're up late, good to see we haven't given up despite the wretched season!

I tend to agree with your points and especially point 2 where, as much as I have enjoyed our play with first Coutts/Fleck/Duffy, then Norwood/Fleck/Duffy and then last season's iterations, we've been getting away with a pretty immobile bunch for some time until this season when we haven't.

I might be doing Norwood a disservice and you can always argue that if you pass the ball well, you retain it better and have to run around less, but he's not mobile at all. It may seem harsh and I open myself up to Messi type comments but Fleck also lacks athleticism and you have to be very good if you are small, which he hasn't been enough this season and he's knocking on 30 now. I've been constantly irritated with Lundstram's approach but he is the only athlete of decent physical stature in the midfield. I'm undecided on Berge, though he will likely leave anyway. He's tall. He's perhaps not yet reached the point of development in his game to translate that to being physically dominant; his next club might reap that one. But I'm also not sure on his pace. Is he big and therefore his pace is deceptive or will he be one of these who turns like an oil tanker?

I'm relatively comfortable on the defence for next season whether that's a 4 or a 3. I look forward to us welcoming back Norrington-Davies who has a clear path to the first XI.

Up front we have players who have scored under other managers and some who still might have another good season in them like Sharp and McGoldrick.

It really is the middle bunch which needs sorting out, regardless of the formation we adopt.

My earlier point was really a bit of a 'did you realise?' post. But it also shows that now others are copying what brought our success then we also need to adopt what our success was, which wasn't necessarily 3-5-2/3-4-1-2 and overlapping, it was being fresh and different. We have to continue to evolve.

To get the edge to differentiate yourself you either have to be better with better players or be different that makes you better. The latter was the case with Wilder though I'd argue we still had good players. It brought the best out of some of the team like Basham for instance where other systems may not have seen him excel.

I'm very interested as to where we go next and I think we all have to be open minded with the next appointment. I loved having Chris at the helm for all he stood for and the freshness be brought. But we do need to keep evolving and recruitment is one area I'm hoping to see more imagination because last time we just went to that same well one too many times.
 
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Given the current state of our midfield, maybe we should do away with them altogether and play 3-3-3-1?
 
To mock a little the phrase used for Pep "don't tell me Chris Wilder hasn't had an influence on the Championship."

Of the 22 teams yesterday in the Championship, 12 played with three at the back and one of those not playing also play that way. It's not clear which, if any, have had the cheek to attempt overlapping centre backs!

Interestingly, the three relegated teams, 2 of which are top 2, play 4 at the back. If you also include Brentford, it means the 4 out of the top 6 points per game teams, so allowing for games in hand, play with a back 4 and the top 3 on ppg, do too.

So we are potentially different if we retain the overlaps but many will be matching up with us in terms of system, allowing for marginal variations though this season's top 3 successes play with a flat back 4.

Now when extolling the virtues of Italian diets, Ron Atkinson once said something to the effect of "yes, and the crap teams at the bottom also eat pasta too!" And to this effect, it's fair to point out that the bottom 7 all played a version of 3-5-2 in their last match.

You could conclude therefore that 10/13 of the 3-5-2 teams will remain, assuming continuity season to season, an assumption which has its limitations. Interestingly, none of the League One top 6 plays 3 at the back. Add back in ourselves and you have 11/24, assumption on us, of course but still significantly higher than a few years ago I'd estimate.

Latest line ups were:
4-2-3-1: Bournemouth, Norwich City, Nottingham Forest, Reading
4-3-3: Watford, Brentford, Blackburn Rovers
4-4-2: Middleborough, Bristol City
4-1-2-1-2 (diamond): Preston North End
4-3-1-2: Luton Town
3-5-2: Stoke City, Millwall, Huddersfield Town
3-1-4-2: Rotherham United
3-4-1-2: Birmingham, Swansea, Sheffield Wednesday
3-4-2-1: Cardiff City, Derby County, QPR, Coventry City, Barnsley
5-4-1: Wycombe Wanderers

Any thoughts?
My thoughts are always the same. Get together quality players who have commitment, pick a system that the players buy into and practice. It doesn’t then matter what system you choose.
 
Go out match up on players ,be better than the said players .you win the game .simple but right .
 
My thoughts are always the same. Get together quality players who have commitment, pick a system that the players buy into and practice. It doesn’t then matter what system you choose.
Agree. The system was effective because we had the players to make it work and it gave us an advantage because it was new and teams didn’t know how to deal with it. It was one of CW’s “cheats” to move us forward quickly, along with having a smaller squad of robust, resilient players who could play forty plus games a season and were all mature and consistent.

But that was his thing. It’s not realistic to think we can find a Wilder replica who’s just going to do exactly the same as he does. Every manager has their own ideas on how to win games.

So, given we don’t know who the manager will be, what players we’ll sell, who we’ll sign, it’s very difficult to predict how we’ll be set up next season. Most of the existing players could adapt to different systems, if we kept JOC and Egan, for example, we could play them as a pairing in a back four. Burke and Freeman (if he comes back) could play in a three behind a lone striker or possibly even in a front three. The new manager might want to do something like that and would tailor our signings accordingly. Or he might want to stick with a back three, or stick with two up front. We just don’t know because we don’t know who it is yet.
 
Agree. The system was effective because we had the players to make it work and it gave us an advantage because it was new and teams didn’t know how to deal with it. It was one of CW’s “cheats” to move us forward quickly, along with having a smaller squad of robust, resilient players who could play forty plus games a season and were all mature and consistent.
smaller squad of robust, resilient players who could play forty plus games a season

And when they get injured and can't play 40 games a season that's where it all falls apart.

I've loved everything that Wilder has done for the club but you have to keep evolving or the only way is backwards.

Unfortunately when things were going against us Chris was too one dimensional and resistant to change/experimentation.

I said quite a long time ago when we were winning for fun that it's easy to manage (anything) when things are going well but the real test of management comes when everything is going against you, and in those circumstances Chris just didn't have the answers.

It's unfortunate, I'm disappointed, but the club has rightly chosen to move on, and we have to look forwards now.
 
smaller squad of robust, resilient players who could play forty plus games a season

And when they get injured and can't play 40 games a season that's where it all falls apart.

I've loved everything that Wilder has done for the club but you have to keep evolving or the only way is backwards.

Unfortunately when things were going against us Chris was too one dimensional and resistant to change/experimentation.

I said quite a long time ago when we were winning for fun that it's easy to manage (anything) when things are going well but the real test of management comes when everything is going against you, and in those circumstances Chris just didn't have the answers.

It's unfortunate, I'm disappointed, but the club has rightly chosen to move on, and we have to look forwards now.
Which is why I called them “cheats”. They were clever and, imo, necessary short cuts to get us where we needed to be. In doing so, CW had to kick a lot of cans down the road and, unfortunately, it caught up with him. With all the stuff going on behind the scenes (documented in the court case) he didn’t really have the opportunity to build sustainably. We had to go up and get the PL money as we had two owners who couldn’t afford to put £10m+ into the club every season, as is required in the championship. It’s a money pit you can’t afford to be stuck in for any length of time without a rich owner. Maybe without Covid we could have just stayed up again this season and started to look at building for the long term, developing young players, selling them for decent money to keep reinvesting. Or maybe that just isn’t what CW’s speciality is, perhaps he’s more of a firefighter and better suited to clubs in crisis. I still think he saved us from being an Ipswich type club and I’ll always be grateful for that. I’m not going to turn against him because he couldn’t keep working miracles, same as I never turned against Bassett for not getting us back up.

I’m afraid I can’t agree with your implication that when the going got tough, the tough fucked off because I don’t think it was ever an easy job with Laurel and Hardy fighting behind the scenes and a very limited budget, Wilder just made it look easy.
 
Which is why I called them “cheats”. They were clever and, imo, necessary short cuts to get us where we needed to be. In doing so, CW had to kick a lot of cans down the road and, unfortunately, it caught up with him. With all the stuff going on behind the scenes (documented in the court case) he didn’t really have the opportunity to build sustainably. We had to go up and get the PL money as we had two owners who couldn’t afford to put £10m+ into the club every season, as is required in the championship. It’s a money pit you can’t afford to be stuck in for any length of time without a rich owner. Maybe without Covid we could have just stayed up again this season and started to look at building for the long term, developing young players, selling them for decent money to keep reinvesting. Or maybe that just isn’t what CW’s speciality is, perhaps he’s more of a firefighter and better suited to clubs in crisis. I still think he saved us from being an Ipswich type club and I’ll always be grateful for that. I’m not going to turn against him because he couldn’t keep working miracles, same as I never turned against Bassett for not getting us back up.

I’m afraid I can’t agree with your implication that when the going got tough, the tough fucked off because I don’t think it was ever an easy job with Laurel and Hardy fighting behind the scenes and a very limited budget, Wilder just made it look easy.
I very purposefully didn't say he fucked off.

I said he didn't try and change anything or take any risks despite not having the personnel to continue as he had been.

His body language has been awful, his interviews very negative and there has no no public signs of any leadership qualities whatsoever when the going got tough.

I would have a lot more respect for him if he had tried something different and failed even if it was a spectacular failure, because at least he would have tried.

Instead he stuck to the same system, we failed the same way game after game, and he spent his time giving "woe is me" "it's not my fault" "the system works" (which it does btw with the right players) interviews.

My dad had a few very good sayings, one of which was "it is better to have tried and failed, than never to have tried at all"

Unfortunately Chris was so rigid in his approach this season that he tried nothing at all.
 
I very purposefully didn't say he fucked off.

I said he didn't try and change anything or take any risks despite not having the personnel to continue as he had been.

His body language has been awful, his interviews very negative and there has no no public signs of any leadership qualities whatsoever when the going got tough.

I would have a lot more respect for him if he had tried something different and failed even if it was a spectacular failure, because at least he would have tried.

Instead he stuck to the same system, we failed the same way game after game, and he spent his time giving "woe is me" "it's not my fault" "the system works" (which it does btw with the right players) interviews.

My dad had a few very good sayings, one of which was "it is better to have tried and failed, than never to have tried at all"

Unfortunately Chris was so rigid in his approach this season that he tried nothing at all.
I don’t believe changing the system would have improved us, I think, in all likelihood, it would’ve made us worse. On the occasions we changed the system during the game we rarely improved much and without JOC we didn’t really have the players to play anything but three at the back. The bottom line is that too many of our signings didn’t work out, that is something Wilder has to take responsibility for.
 
I don’t believe changing the system would have improved us, I think, in all likelihood, it would’ve made us worse. On the occasions we changed the system during the game we rarely improved much and without JOC we didn’t really have the players to play anything but three at the back. The bottom line is that too many of our signings didn’t work out, that is something Wilder has to take responsibility for.
You may well be right that changing the system wouldn't have worked.

I'm also not convinced that it would have worked either but my point is that it MAY have worked, and we had nothing to lose by trying something different.

If we had tried something different and failed so be it, but we didn't.

We kept on doing what we always did and therefore got what we always got.

As a manager Wilder was responsible for that.
 
I very purposefully didn't say he fucked off.

I said he didn't try and change anything or take any risks despite not having the personnel to continue as he had been.

His body language has been awful, his interviews very negative and there has no no public signs of any leadership qualities whatsoever when the going got tough.

I would have a lot more respect for him if he had tried something different and failed even if it was a spectacular failure, because at least he would have tried.

Instead he stuck to the same system, we failed the same way game after game, and he spent his time giving "woe is me" "it's not my fault" "the system works" (which it does btw with the right players) interviews.

My dad had a few very good sayings, one of which was "it is better to have tried and failed, than never to have tried at all"

Unfortunately Chris was so rigid in his approach this season that he tried nothing at all.
^This^

As much as we loved Wilder (and we did) his obstinacy in identifying where it was patently fucked this season (and for the latter part of last) and sorting it out. Part of me thinks it's because the players have been used to playing 3-5-2 for so long they were unable to adapt to another system but then, when Lundstram was sent off against Brighton and we went 4-4-1, we looked a completely different unit and far more capable, especially utilising Bogle as a marauding wide, attacking midfielder.

Wilder did try to tinker at times but usually when we were flat on our backs and behind by a few goals, by which time morale has dropped and the opposition have blood in their nostrils. It was so disappointing to see us line up at the beginning of each match with a line up built for Championship football with attacking centrebacks and facing adept defending teams in the PL who just mopped us up and exploited our frailties. Even if he'd gone 4-5-1 it may have helped. Lose the midfield battle in the PL and you lose the match. It is where the real game is played.

pommpey
 
You may well be right that changing the system wouldn't have worked.

I'm also not convinced that it would have worked either but my point is that it MAY have worked, and we had nothing to lose by trying something different.

If we had tried something different and failed so be it, but we didn't.

We kept on doing what we always did and therefore got what we always got.

As a manager Wilder was responsible for that.
Sorry, I just can’t accept that Wilder should be criticised for not doing something he didn’t think would work. Criticise his signings as much as you like, criticise his results; whatever happened behind the scenes that led to his departure, there’s an argument he should’ve been sacked, plenty of managers have been for results like that but I will never agree with criticism for doing what he thought was right.

I can’t get on board with the narrative that we have to demonise Wilder to somehow make PA look better, things have gone wrong and needed to be addressed and they have been, that’s football. He’s left us in a better place than he found us and now it’s time for something different. It was never likely to end well, if he’d continued to be successful, he’d have probably moved on at some point and been criticised for it, or we’d have got this scenario where he can’t take us any further, it’s just a shame we’ve reached this point earlier than most of us expected.
 
Formations, systems, tactics and shapes aren't all the same thing, other teams played three at the back of us plenty of times when we got promoted, while employing a wide range of different tactics.

We've been playing an ineffective 5-3-2 for most of the season without any overlapping and nowhere near as much attacking by the fullbacks as most sides that use a standard back three and wingbacks.

Despite playing a back three since early in the League 1 season, our tactics have changed numerous times since then, the overlapping was originally just an occasional thing on the left. Basham was a midfielder most of the time, people like Ebanks-Landell and Carter-Vickers at RCB didn't bomb forward much at all, just sat in as a two with the central centre back if JOC went forward and most of the width came from the wing backs or Duffy drifting out wide to double up on fullbacks.

To go with this we started out with the usual 2 in midfield, Duffy as a 10 and a front two, but the nature of the front two varied, something like Brooks running off Donaldson was somewhat different to lumping it up to Madine. There were also games where Duffy didn't play and we had a fairly flat midfield three. The basic shape of 3-5-2 was the same, but Wilder's tactics weren't as rigid as they became.

Basham becoming the regular RCB meant we had overlaps both sides with Coutts/Evans/Norwood sitting back to cover the defence.

The midfield and attacking shape stayed more or less the same as before, with lots of little triangles of passing that sometimes struggled to break through stubborn Championship defences that sat deep, but long diagonal balls from Norwood and doubling up down the wings gave other options. Wilder's lack of plan B sometimes started to show as taking off Sharp and Duffy after 60/70 minutes like clockwork every week rarely resulted in a change of approach.

The Premier League meant no more Duffy and a boring midfield three that often left the strikers isolated, most attacking came from out wide, but Fleck and Lundstram offered running from midfield to support and Norwood usually had space to do his diagonals. The overlapping centre backs were an important feature, but there were numerous games where JOC always stayed back to keep things tight and we just used the wing backs normally.

This season, no JOC meant the overlap on the left wasn't on at all. Although its a loss, its something most sides with wingbacks don't have, we'd done without it sometimes last season and we still had it up the right early on in the season. Thr problem was that every alternative in defence to JOC was a liability, Stevens has been atrocious both attacking and defending and Fleck was playing poorly PR injured for months, crippling the entire left side. To tighten up at the back, the overlap on the right almost died out and the wing backs became full backs in a back 5.

Despite the defensive weaknesses, midfield is what's killed us, poor pressing, no link up with the attackers, nowhere near enough running and teams pressing Norwood hard has left whichever two is up front looking lost, or in McBurnie's case looking up as we just launch aimless long balls when he's on the pitch, even though he's a far better player with it at his feet.

The back three itself isn't to blame for most of what has gone wrong this season, the broken midfield, the fullbacks being too deep, everyone trying Hollywood diagonals or long balls for every single pass weren't down to having three centre backs, but Wilder's refusal to ever change it no matter how many players were out was crazy, the only way he knew how to play a back four was to put Sharp on for Basham after 70 minutes.

This version of 3-5-2 wouldn't work at any level, but dismissing it as a tactic completely is stupid. It doesn't matter how many Championship teams use a back three as few of their actual systems will be the same.

What matters is finding something that works for us, if the includes a back three fine, if it doesn't, also fine. Having the players to adapt between different shapes would be the best thing, there's little room for flexibility in the current squad.
 

From stuff I've read and listened to the word is that the board don't feel as though we currently have a squad capable of playing 4-4-2 effectively (both the obvious lack of wingers and central defenders that haven't been impressive when played in a back four). So the remit for the new manager is to work with the current set up (given our stated ambition of keeping as many players as we can) and aim for gradual change to whatever system they prefer.

Formations aren't as important as the tactics within them or the personnel to carry it out. There was nothing revolutionary about the formation on paper and there's not been some silver bullet discovered in football to neutralise it.
 
Wilder has left us with a really poor squad. The lack of pace and power is beyond belief. We need to address that otherwise it will be midtable at best.
 
Sorry, I just can’t accept that Wilder should be criticised for not doing something he didn’t think would work. Criticise his signings as much as you like, criticise his results; whatever happened behind the scenes that led to his departure, there’s an argument he should’ve been sacked, plenty of managers have been for results like that but I will never agree with criticism for doing what he thought was right.

I can’t get on board with the narrative that we have to demonise Wilder to somehow make PA look better, things have gone wrong and needed to be addressed and they have been, that’s football. He’s left us in a better place than he found us and now it’s time for something different. It was never likely to end well, if he’d continued to be successful, he’d have probably moved on at some point and been criticised for it, or we’d have got this scenario where he can’t take us any further, it’s just a shame we’ve reached this point earlier than most of us expected.
So you think if something's not working then there's no point in trying something different?

To be clear I'm not demonising Wilder having been a big advocate of his long before he became our manager and I've never been a fan of the Prince having been solidly behind McCabe in the court case.

As far as I'm concerned the jury is still out on the Prince but for you to fail to see any shortcomings in Chris Wilders management approach during the last 9 months makes you as stubborn and tunnel visioned as he was.

Dinosaurs died out because they failed to adapt to change and my only criticism of Chris is that he was not brave enough to try something different when the situation clearly demanded it.

To do nothing whilst your ship is sinking and your crew are floundering all around you points to weaknesses in both management and leadership skills.
 
So you think if something's not working then there's no point in trying something different
No, I said very clearly that I don’t think there’s any point changing things if you don’t believe the changes will do anything but make things worse.
As far as I'm concerned the jury is still out on the Prince but for you to fail to see any shortcomings in Chris Wilders management approach during the last 9 months makes you as stubborn and tunnel visioned as he was.
I said in my first post that his signings haven’t worked out so obviously I can see shortcomings in his management approach. I’ve also said that there was a strong argument for him to be sacked. I don’t think I can be any clearer than that really.

As for being stubborn and having tunnel vision, that’s probably fair comment, people that know me well would probably agree and, just like with Wilder, sometimes it can be a strength and an asset, sometimes it can be a weakness that leads to my downfall.
 
I very purposefully didn't say he fucked off.

I said he didn't try and change anything or take any risks despite not having the personnel to continue as he had been.

His body language has been awful, his interviews very negative and there has no no public signs of any leadership qualities whatsoever when the going got tough.

I would have a lot more respect for him if he had tried something different and failed even if it was a spectacular failure, because at least he would have tried.

Instead he stuck to the same system, we failed the same way game after game, and he spent his time giving "woe is me" "it's not my fault" "the system works" (which it does btw with the right players) interviews.

My dad had a few very good sayings, one of which was "it is better to have tried and failed, than never to have tried at all"

Unfortunately Chris was so rigid in his approach this season that he tried nothing at all.

Your Dad was Alfred Lord Tennyson?
 
As for being stubborn and having tunnel vision, that’s probably fair comment, people that know me well would probably agree and, just like with Wilder, sometimes it can be a strength and an asset, sometimes it can be a weakness that leads to my downfall.
I have to admit that I have faced the same accusations and at the time I would have struggled to refute them but I like to think that I'm mellowing with age ;)
 
Not saying there won't be new tactics from a new manager next season - but whoever is the manager - if we manage to start the season with a defence of Rammers, Basham, Egan and JOC we should be very solid solid.

Centre midfield needs attention.

Would be very confident starting the season with that defence - pretty concerned if JOC or Egan are sold.

UTB
 
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From what I've seen this season, any tactics would be a good thing
 
Nice to see a clear plan B has been successfully used, considering the strength of the squad, being able to nullify tactical changes made by the opposition to try and combat our style of play is positive, we can switch things round mid game and also make it difficult for the opposition to know what formation they are going to be facing.

It's a long time since I've been satisfied that we can effectively switch things up, we had it a bit last season and it looks like we're set up and confident in 2 options again, a good position to be in for the business end of the season.

 
Nice to see a clear plan B has been successfully used, considering the strength of the squad, being able to nullify tactical changes made by the opposition to try and combat our style of play is positive, we can switch things round mid game and also make it difficult for the opposition to know what formation they are going to be facing.

It's a long time since I've been satisfied that we can effectively switch things up, we had it a bit last season and it looks like we're set up and confident in 2 options again, a good position to be in for the business end of the season.

We should have been in for that Khadra that's just gone to Birmingham if we're looking at playing 3 upfront

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