The Academy- is it worth it?

[Silent Blade]

The academy already scout players released from premier league clubs. 3 of the 5 signed on a pro deal were previously with Man Utd at some stage, with the other two having come through the academy from under 9's.

I had a feeling that we (also SWFC too) are now recruiting "cast-offs" (cant think of a more polite word) from Academies in PL clubs so you have now confirmed this. It was the same with Matt Crooks (ex Man U Academy, now at Huddersfield but has not broken into the 1st team yet and is nearly 20 years old (he is injured at the moment)). Matt's mum is a friend of mine and I played football with his dad so I have been taking an interest in Matt's progress. I saw Matt's mum the Saturday before last and she seems to be getting more realistic that time might be running out for Matt's chances of getting the breakthrough (will he be ok after the injury is another worry). Going back to recruiting Academy players released by PL clubs it does show that our scouts and coaches are not doing their jobs properly especially between the ages of 9 and 14 or 15

 

[Silent Blade]

b) I understand the Prince is keen on the idea of home grown starts filling the first team and selling the surplus on to make it cost neutral(think we've heard that before?)

Yes we have heard of that before. This week the Tories have been saying that we will overtake the German economy by 2020 and I get irritated with "5 or 7 year plan" comments like that.

 

[Lamp]

I have always had the suspicion that it doesn't pay its' way. Until the Prince arrived, it seems we couldn't sustain ourselves on 15 - 20,000 gates in the third division, and it made be wonder where the money went.

I appreciate we've had the 2 Kyles, but is this really enough for all the time, effort at financial resource it's drained from us? Right now we have Maguire and Long - both prospects - but I suspect we'd raise little over £500,000 for the pair.

Players come through ad hoc, so you can't plan around it. Would the energy used on it be better aimed at finding the best young talent to fallout of the premier league?

Any thoughts?

UTB

They are worth it if we progress them
And sell them!

 

[Bulletnut]

Great training facility and an all round tidy set up. Is the academy worth it? You'd have to say no in all honesty. Success in football is all about the first team, no more no less. Over the years our first team has eroded at a shocking rate, any kid who was even half decent would have walked into that team but very few of ours did. The few that did look decent were sold on the cheap so even if it had been a conveyor belt of talent, our track record suggests that we wouldn't have been savvy enough to either hold out for decent cash for any starlets, and any cash that was forthcoming wouldn't have been invested where it was sorely needed in strengthening the first team.

Always seen us as an unambitious club that appears scared to death to succeed and the way the academy has been managed sadly makes me think that all the more.

 

[Silent Blade]

Been thinking about Wigan Athletic (less fans than us etc)today, their Centre of Excellence wasnt upgraded to Academy until last year or year before. Since 2001 we had been putting in more emphasis on our youth set up than Wigan have, Wigan have had 8 seasons in the Premiership compared to our only season (2006-07) also they have won the FA Cup (a trophy we havent won since 1925). Maybe, as an ex-professional footballer, Dave Whelan thinks the Academy is over-rated and he has done very well to bring success to his small club

 

[Kev Gee]

I think we have wasted our chance with many of the mid term players now.

they have gone too far to get them upto league 1 standard.

However i think the academy is vital to the club going forward & if anything we should invest even more.

 

[metalblade]

Been thinking about Wigan Athletic (less fans than us etc)today, their Centre of Excellence wasnt upgraded to Academy until last year or year before. Since 2001 we had been putting in more emphasis on our youth set up than Wigan have, Wigan have had 8 seasons in the Premiership compared to our only season (2006-07) also they have won the FA Cup (a trophy we havent won since 1925). Maybe, as an ex-professional footballer, Dave Whelan thinks the Academy is over-rated and he has done very well to bring success to his small club

I don't think you can realistically compare us to Wigan who for all their years in the Premiership and the recent cup win are a club with no tradition or a large fan base, even now we probably average higher gates than they do. Wigan are a club that for years have been bankrolled by Whelen a owner who is prepared to put large amounts of money into the first team. As we are beginning to see it was never going to be sustainable I see Wigan as another Blackburn Rovers, throw enough money at any club and you can achieve short term success e.g a cup win or maybe even win the league but without the fan base it is not sustainable. We have the fan base alright our difficulty is finding the owner prepared to bankroll the club into the premiership where with our fanbase we could sustain our position at that level.

 

[oaklandrdblade]

Going back to recruiting Academy players released by PL clubs it does show that our scouts and coaches are not doing their jobs properly especially between the ages of 9 and 14 or 15

Personally think it's probably more to do with the fact that the top clubs have a 'revolving door' policy to some extent. Liverpool used to have two scouts for South Yorkshire who just happened to run the Representative side for the schools, all the other big clubs were the same and there have been ways of getting round the 90 minute travelling rule (now gone ?).

 

[judge]

Yes, they came to us pre 2001

They all came to us at 16 , the products of leeds , man city and evertons youth systems

 

[shorehamview]

They all came to us at 16 , the products of leeds , man city and evertons youth systems

And, no doubt, straight into the first team without any further development. We may as well bin the academy now, and poach 16 year olds from other clubs.

 

[judge]

And, no doubt, straight into the first team without any further development. We may as well bin the academy now, and poach 16 year olds from other clubs.

Think they were all about 19 when they hit the first team

 

[Darren]

I don't think you can realistically compare us to Wigan who for all their years in the Premiership and the recent cup win are a club with no tradition or a large fan base, even now we probably average higher gates than they do. Wigan are a club that for years have been bankrolled by Whelen a owner who is prepared to put large amounts of money into the first team. As we are beginning to see it was never going to be sustainable I see Wigan as another Blackburn Rovers, throw enough money at any club and you can achieve short term success e.g a cup win or maybe even win the league but without the fan base it is not sustainable. We have the fan base alright our difficulty is finding the owner prepared to bankroll the club into the premiership where with our fanbase we could sustain our position at that level.

"Not sustainable"? "Short term"? Last I looked, Blackburn had done rather better than us over the last 20 years and Wigan have done better than us over the last 10 years.

How long is this "short term"? I would have swapped Blackburn's lat 20 years and Wigan's last 10 years for our "sustainability".

 

[JohnDenver]

with our fanbase we could sustain our position at that level.

I know what you're saying but it seems all successful clubs need a sugar daddy or an impossible level of borrowing these days. I don't think our crowds will sustain anything on their own sadly.

 

[Silent Blade]

And, no doubt, straight into the first team without any further development. We may as well bin the academy now, and poach 16 year olds from other clubs.

I think some clubs will do that in the next few years

 

[metalblade]

"Not sustainable"? "Short term"? Last I looked, Blackburn had done rather better than us over the last 20 years and Wigan have done better than us over the last 10 years.

How long is this "short term"? I would have swapped Blackburn's lat 20 years and Wigan's last 10 years for our "sustainability".

Well Darren look where Wigan and Blackburn are now, Rovers are really struggling and Wigan are not pulling any trees up, where will they be when the owners money dries up and the parachute payments stop they certainly will not carry on with gates averaging around 15000. Without rich owners investing heavily in the 1st team such clubs are nothing.

 

[Silent Blade]

Personally think it's probably more to do with the fact that the top clubs have a 'revolving door' policy to some extent. Liverpool used to have two scouts for South Yorkshire who just happened to run the Representative side for the schools, all the other big clubs were the same and there have been ways of getting round the 90 minute travelling rule (now gone ?).

wouldnt surprise me about Liverpool's two scouts in South Yorkshire. I think the 90 minute rule has become irrelevant now because in 2012, the PL clubs have made the FL clubs to accept changes to the Academies and under the EPPP (see link below), the PL clubs whose academies are now at level one now have more power over players at Academies level two (that is us and SWFC etc) or three and if they want the player then they pay a small fee (much, much less than the £1M Chelsea paid us for Jacob Melis)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elite_Player_Performance_Plan

 

[Silent Blade]

"Not sustainable"? "Short term"? Last I looked, Blackburn had done rather better than us over the last 20 years and Wigan have done better than us over the last 10 years.

How long is this "short term"? I would have swapped Blackburn's lat 20 years and Wigan's last 10 years for our "sustainability".

Fully agree with that. I cannot understand why some are excited about our Academy which has now been downgraded and having less power over the players (I think the coaching and scouting are not as good as it was or their hands have been tied behind their backs) while I have been miserable about our 1st team league positions in this century.

 

[Darren]

Well Darren look where Wigan and Blackburn are now, Rovers are really struggling and Wigan are not pulling any trees up, where will they be when the owners money dries up and the parachute payments stop they certainly will not carry on with gates averaging around 15000. Without rich owners investing heavily in the 1st team such clubs are nothing.

Last I looked Wigan and Blackburn were mid table in the 2nd tier and we were towards the bottom of the 3rd tier. Blackburn were last in the 3rd tier in 1980 and since then have always been either a decent second tier or a first tier team. We have had three spells in the third tier in that 34 year period and have had only 5 seasons in the top tier compared to Blackburn's 18. Blackburn, of course, have won 2 trophies during that period whilst we have only once finished in the top half in the top tier and haven't won anything since 1925.

I don't know how long your long term is, but I can't see how anyone can argue that over the last generation Blackburn have not been vastly more successful than us and that shows no signs of changing.

 

[Silent Blade]

I don't think you can realistically compare us to Wigan who for all their years in the Premiership and the recent cup win are a club with no tradition or a large fan base, even now we probably average higher gates than they do. Wigan are a club that for years have been bankrolled by Whelen a owner who is prepared to put large amounts of money into the first team. As we are beginning to see it was never going to be sustainable I see Wigan as another Blackburn Rovers, throw enough money at any club and you can achieve short term success e.g a cup win or maybe even win the league but without the fan base it is not sustainable. We have the fan base alright our difficulty is finding the owner prepared to bankroll the club into the premiership where with our fanbase we could sustain our position at that level.

Our fan base is still very good but the longer we are in the lower divisions, it will shrink so your excitement over our Academy will become irrelevant.

 

[judge]

Like most of the major acts of daylight robbery and crimes against football this one happened right under our noses with not a whimper from the football league club's who had been told they would lose their funding from the premier league and not a mention from the media

Whilst fat fuckwits like micky quinn debated wether luis suarez or john terry were the most despicable players in english football history

The game sold its soul and I hope it chokes on the profits , shame noone seems to have noticed or care

 

[grafikhaus]

And, no doubt, straight into the first team without any further development. We may as well bin the academy now, and poach 16 year olds from other clubs.

I'd agree. The game has changed and is no longer about youth set-up, scouting etc. It's about wealthy owners and how much they're prepared to pump in.

 

[Silent Blade]

They all came to us at 16 , the products of leeds , man city and evertons youth systems

Tonge came from Man U. Alex Bruce recommended him to his dad who was our manager at the time. You are right about Monty and Jags

 

[alcoblade]

The game sold its soul and I hope it chokes on the profits , shame noone seems to have noticed or care

Good post but I'm not sure about this bit - plenty have noticed it's just they're powerless to change it.



UTB

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

Yes we have heard of that before. This week the Tories have been saying that we will overtake the German economy by 2020 and I get irritated with "5 or 7 year plan" comments like that.

Don't think it was the Tories but the CEBR.

 

[vorpal blade]

I have a few questions, could anyone answer them please?

I don't know what a football academy is.

Is it a full-time 'school' for talented footballers or is it more like an after school club?

Whichever, it seems to me that the whole system has failed on a national level. The England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland teams don't seem to benefit.

Are they too concentrated on football? For me the more general the education the better and in this country we do tend to focus too narrowly.

The most renowned youth systems are those of Ajax and Barcelona aren't they? Are our academies anything like theirs? The Germans had a famous re-think about the way their system operated 10 years or so ago and that worked so what did they do differently?

 

[judge]

Good post but I'm not sure aboutin the game this bit - plenty have noticed it's just they're powerless to change it.



UTB

So the premierleague chairman are now the custodians of all levels of football In the game and the sport media are more concerned with amusing whit van man who might as well live in abu dhabi for the ammount of money time or dedication he has put into the sport

 

[judge]

I have a few question, could anyone answer them please?

I don't know what a football academy is.

Is it a full-time 'school' for talented footballers or is it more like an after school club?

Whichever, it seems to me that the whole system has failed on a national level. The England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland teams don't seem to benefit.

Are they too concentrated on football? For me the more general the education the better and in this country we do tend to focus too narrowly.

The most renowned youth systems are those of Ajax and Barcelona aren't they? Are our academies anything like theirs? The Germans had a famous re-think about the way their system operated 10 years or so ago and that worked so what did they do differently?

People I know who work on the education side of the academy system say It is little surprise they produce such collosal twats as they have everything done for them and are pampered beyond belief with no realistic grasp of the outside world

 

[vorpal blade]

I worried that may be the case your honour.
I suspect that they are single-sex? and I would have thought if they don't offer a broad syllabus they are potentially letting lads who don't become successful footballers down badly and not really helping the boys who succeed in sport to become 'well-rounded human beings'. Hence the well publicised bad-behaviour?

 

[Darren]

I worried that may be the case your honour.
I suspect that they are single-sex? and I would have thought if they don't offer a broad syllabus they are potentially letting lads who don't become successful footballers down badly and not really helping the boys who succeed in sport to become 'well-rounded human beings'. Hence the well publicised bad-behaviour?

As far as I am aware, boys connected to academies still have to attend a normal school until they are 16. They just get attached to academies rather than going to sixth form college or whatever.

The money they will get as academy scholars will be a pittance, so it won't be a case of them turning into arses because they can flash the cash. Insofar as there is a problem with inflated egos it seems at least partially inevitable given that they have been taken on by an academy in the face of so much competition. But then, if they didn't have huge self confidence in the first place it;s unlikely they would have been taken on by the academy.

 

[vorpal blade]

I would have thought that a creative approach would be for a football club to team up with a local school and incorporate the academy into its 6th form. If they were studying for 'A'-levels in a co-ed school I think apprentice footballers would make better professionals.

Its part of our pathetic class divide that Rugby Union is the game of the private and grammar schools but I do think the example of schools that specialise in Rugby, like Sedbergh would be an interesting example to learn from. (btw I think football could do with some of the talent that is lost to Rugby)

The problem is that the football establishment is inward looking and thinks it knows best.