The Academy Critics

[alcoblade]

I don't quite understand how people can write off the sales of, for example, Naughton and Walker, as a waste of time. The sale put £10M into the coffers and however much some want to believe we can pay them in washers, we can't. That £10M would have had to be found from elsewhere. If the academy produces shed loads of players that are sold for millions a piece then it's a success.

We need to seperately debate why haven't made better use of the money. Start by thinkinh about Naysmith, Speed and Hendrie. That's the Walker money gone for next to nothing in return. That's the issue.

UTB

 

[oldblade]

For goodness sake, there isn't another football club I know that could have so many people criticising the fact that our youngsters have made the FA Youth Cup Final.

Will they all make it into our first team? No.

Will they all make it into other football league club's first team? No.

Will they all make it in football? No.

However, they wore red and white striped shirts last night and did me proud. There were a few lads that did impress me greatly and should be able to make it at SUFC on that performance.

Some people need to stop using everything as a stick to beat United. We've had a crap season, we're going down, any of them that are any good will probably be sold but let's be happy that one aspect of the red and white wizards is showing us a glimmer of hope.

UTB

I don't know how many of them will play for United (or anyone else for that matter!), but from what I could see last night, there were several that looked as though they might make the grade and one or two that might be ready now. But I would rather get this season out of the way and clear out a lot of our current failed first team players before introducing any of the youths into the first team squad.

However, what I saw last night was encouraging and entertaining. And as you have said, it was pleasnt to see at least one set of players who represent our club actually looking like a team, having quite high skill levels, and being able to pass repeatedly to our own players, rather than to the stands or the opposition!

Edit- And the players, Pemberton and the rest of the accademy staff deserve praise for what was on display. We're quick enough to criticise shortcomings, let's give praise when it's due.

 

[Tuns]

In some ways I am glad that there are no 'new Kyles' as it may mean we get to see them play for us for more than a season before they inevitably move on.

Lowton is the standard of player we need to aim to produce. No world beater, steady, not likey to attract a big offer but should develop into a decent enough player for League One and hopefully Championship and has some affinity to the club.

No point producing players of superior quality until the mess behind the scenes is sorted out. I don't believe the sale of the Kyles made any material difference to the club we support - not the plc- other than drive a few thousand fans away and take some of the heart out and hope out of the club that is has yet to recover.

It's not like we sold them and then re-invested a chunk of the cash in fact after we flogged them we ended up selling pretty much everybody with a half decent price tag or on high wages anyway and ended up flogging far more decent players than a club in admin but we haven't had the debts cleared.

Enjoyed it last night, proud of the team and good luck to them. Getting to the final is a great achievement but that doesn't suddenly mean we have had or have a great youth policy. A successful academy is pointless if it does not genuinely and significantly benefit the first team for a period of time.

 

[Stafford Blade]

observations from this thread....................

1) bladesway obviously has the brains of a rocking horse.

2) len give it a rest on this one, you're out of your depth.

As academies first take kids in at 7-8-9 years old this is a brilliant example of the work done by the academy and its coaches. Is it a fluke they've got this far? is it fuck. is it all pembo's work? is it fuck. it's down to the coaches that have worked with the young kids for years working on basic techniques and allowing kids to develop. Those that are criticising are a fucking embarrassment and should be ashamed. The problem is, most of them will be too thick to realise why they are wrong

 

[norfolkblade]

We need to seperately debate why haven't made better use of the money. Start by thinkinh about Naysmith, Speed and Hendrie. That's the Walker money gone for next to nothing in return. That's the issue.

UTB

Playing devils advocate here, but if we didn't sell them, we would of had no money for ageing journeymen and had to of used a few academy lads, that sounds a far more attractive proposition to me, but I do of course understand that business can not, and will not, ever work that way!

 

[lenners]

I don't quite understand how people can write off the sales of, for example, Naughton and Walker, as a waste of time. The sale put £10M into the coffers and however much some want to believe we can pay them in washers, we can't. That £10M would have had to be found from elsewhere. If the academy produces shed loads of players that are sold for millions a piece then it's a success.

We need to seperately debate why haven't made better use of the money. Start by thinkinh about Naysmith, Speed and Hendrie. That's the Walker money gone for next to nothing in return. That's the issue.

UTB

Er yes, and that's the point that's been made.
No point in having the best academy going if you end up selling them all in five minutes to raise money to pay for a series of appalling decisions everywhere else.
That's exactly what's ripped the heart out of the club, turned away thousands of fans and left us with a miserable set of misfits that no-one identifies with.

---------- Post added at 01:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:54 AM ----------

observations from this thread....................

1) bladesway obviously has the brains of a rocking horse.

2) len give it a rest on this one, you're out of your depth.

As academies first take kids in at 7-8-9 years old this is a brilliant example of the work done by the academy and its coaches. Is it a fluke they've got this far? is it fuck. is it all pembo's work? is it fuck. it's down to the coaches that have worked with the young kids for years working on basic techniques and allowing kids to develop. Those that are criticising are a fucking embarrassment and should be ashamed. The problem is, most of them will be too thick to realise why they are wrong

As opposed to yourself and Wombwell who are apparently unable to read and comprehend simple English.
No-one has said it isn't a worthwhile achievement - why do you think I went down to watch them?
The point that is being made is that it doesn't matter how good our academy is if the rest of the club isn't functioning or being managed properly.
If you were actually capable of understanding simple concepts you'd realise that most of us want as many of our good young players in the first team as possible but are utterly pissed off with the untrustworthy set of half wits running the club who'll either sell them in five minutes or create such a chaotic first team set up that they'd have no chance to progress.
I hope that's simple enough for you to understand.

 

[Bladesway]

observations from this thread....................

1) bladesway obviously has the brains of a rocking horse.

2) len give it a rest on this one, you're out of your depth.

As academies first take kids in at 7-8-9 years old this is a brilliant example of the work done by the academy and its coaches. Is it a fluke they've got this far? is it fuck. is it all pembo's work? is it fuck. it's down to the coaches that have worked with the young kids for years working on basic techniques and allowing kids to develop. Those that are criticising are a fucking embarrassment and should be ashamed. The problem is, most of them will be too thick to realise why they are wrong

Assuming I do have the brains of a rocking horse exactly what does your post say that assumes your obvious intellectual superiority? As I read this you swear a lot, call some people who dare to be critical ebarrassments and that they should be ashamed of themselves?

It is no fluke they have got this far, well done to the staff and players for this season but have you ever thought that the trick is not developing these players but keeping them for the future and into the future. Academy is great but why drop your drawers as soon as the first offer comes along and sell them. Had Walker and Naughton been in our team this season I doubt we would be where we are. How much exactly is relegation going to cost us? Probably more than the £8m (£2m down and the rest in instalments) we got for them. For me the argument isn't the quality of the academy because it doesn't seem to be doing a bad job. Its the quality of the future management that sells them as soon as they look any good.

As for the rest of your post, I'm not sure its those who criticise who should be embarrassed. Have a butchers in the mirror.

Copenhagen, I'm not touchy about the subject I just thought your post was patronising at best. Constructive? I didn't see it as such. It said anyone who has criticised the club for the academy has been proved wrong, I don't agree. Can you post it in pictures for me in future, I'm a bit thick.

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

As others have said having a 'successful' academy team is only the start, it will only be a success when it's constantly feeding the 1st team squad with two or three players a season IMO.

As an aside, considering the season we've had with injuries and loans, what's happened to James and Chappel who were both regularly in the squad at the start of the season ?

 

[beechblade]

As others have said having a 'successful' academy team is only the start, it will only be a success when it's constantly feeding the 1st team squad with two or three players a season IMO.

As an aside, considering the season we've had with injuries and loans, what's happened to James and Chappel who were both regularly in the squad at the start of the season ?

From what I've seen on the OS, they have both featured in the development squad and at times in the reserves.

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

From what I've seen on the OS, they have both featured in the development squad and at times in the reserves.

What I meant was, they were considered good enough for the squad at the start of the season yet we've seen no sign of them recently when at times wev'e not even filled the bench.

 

[beechblade]

What I meant was, they were considered good enough for the squad at the start of the season yet we've seen no sign of them recently when at times wev'e not even filled the bench.

Ah I see..

 

[Bladesway]

What I meant was, they were considered good enough for the squad at the start of the season yet we've seen no sign of them recently when at times wev'e not even filled the bench.

I think this is a point that makes many fans scratch their heads. We have a hot prospect and yet we have sometimes not had enough subs to fill the bench. Either the manager must feel these kids are a million miles short of where they need to be, or they just don't want to drop them in. Either way it doesn't exactly show faith in the player does it.

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

Both Kyles benefitted from loan spells away from the club, the problem next season is that we'll be playing at the level we normally loan them out to !

There's never a 'good' time to blood youngsters in as there'll always be pressure whether it's relegation or the expectation of play-offs and promotion. Some will buckle under the pressure, some will thrive on it but the only way to find out is to put them in. What's happened in the last 2 seasons is that we've been 'blooding in' youngsters from elsewhere which is the annoying thing, the assumption that untried Premiership reservees will automatically be better than our own.

It's back to the ethos of the club, what people forget is that both Kyles only got their chance due to injuries / suspensions. We'll never know for sure but would we have seen either of them that season if Sun Jihai hadn't got sent off ?

 

[SouthEssexBlade]

Walker

Quinn

Naughton

Mellis

Lowton

That is an exceptional return for any academy. More than justifying it's existence and effectiveness.

What happens with these after the academy is a different debate entirely. But for our academy to be competing with and beating the likes of Villa (finalists last year) is quite an achievement when Youth and Academy football is dominated by the big clubs even more than the senior game (You're 10 and looking the mutts' nuts football-wise. Offers are flooding in from your local clubs and then Man Utd/Liverpool/Chelsea/Arsenal/Villa/Spurs make an offer. Guess where you go?).

 

[Houso]

Both Kyles benefitted from loan spells away from the club, the problem next season is that we'll be playing at the level we normally loan them out to !

There's never a 'good' time to blood youngsters in as there'll always be pressure whether it's relegation or the expectation of play-offs and promotion. Some will buckle under the pressure, some will thrive on it but the only way to find out is to put them in. What's happened in the last 2 seasons is that we've been 'blooding in' youngsters from elsewhere which is the annoying thing, the assumption that untried Premiership reservees will automatically be better than our own.

It's back to the ethos of the club, what people forget is that both Kyles only got their chance due to injuries / suspensions. We'll never know for sure but would we have seen either of them that season if Sun Jihai hadn't got sent off ?

This isn't a problem in my mind and is something we should relish next season. Look at Leicester and Southampton for instance who blooded players from their academies at that level; a couple of whom have grown into excellent professionals. Andy King in particular cemented his place in that league and he's grown into one of the best midfielders in this league in the past season and a bit.

Next season could see players like Slew, Maguire, James, Chappell etc flourish. I know people like to compare us to Wednesday and their struggles in the league below, but we have a very good set of hungry youngsters in both the academy and dev squads that they don't in S6. When we go down, I'm prepared to go into next season with a bit of hope so long as we eschew the likes of Collins and Doyle, or at least supplement them with the likes of Maguire and Harriott.

Shit, I'm being optimistic about a season in league 1. Allow me to lay prone on the floor while I get a sound kicking.

 

[super_pig]

forte isn't doing too bad either.. there was some bloke called billy sharp as well.. dunno what happened to him

 

[alcoblade]

Er yes, and that's the point that's been made.
No point in having the best academy going if you end up selling them all in five minutes to raise money to pay for a series of appalling decisions everywhere else.

No, you're confusing 2 issues. You're suggesting that if we hadn't had the academy we wouldn't have spunked millions on property and ageing but poor pro's. The 2 aren't related. Without the Kyle money we'd just be £10M further in debt, with a whole host of new problems on top of the current ones.

The academy producing talented players for either first team use or high value sale is the academy doing it's job. The way we then fritter that money is a completely different issue. You never seem to want to grasp any connection between income and first team squad. However much you'd like them not to be, they're entirely related.

UTB

 

[Bladesway]

Walker

Quinn

Naughton

Mellis

Lowton

That is an exceptional return for any academy. More than justifying it's existence and effectiveness.

What happens with these after the academy is a different debate entirely. But for our academy to be competing with and beating the likes of Villa (finalists last year) is quite an achievement when Youth and Academy football is dominated by the big clubs even more than the senior game (You're 10 and looking the mutts' nuts football-wise. Offers are flooding in from your local clubs and then Man Utd/Liverpool/Chelsea/Arsenal/Villa/Spurs make an offer. Guess where you go?).

Quinn wasn't a product of our Academy, we bought him over with his brothers from Ireland.

 

[lenners]

No, you're confusing 2 issues. You're suggesting that if we hadn't had the academy we wouldn't have spunked millions on property and ageing but poor pro's. The 2 aren't related. Without the Kyle money we'd just be £10M further in debt, with a whole host of new problems on top of the current ones.

The academy producing talented players for either first team use or high value sale is the academy doing it's job. The way we then fritter that money is a completely different issue. You never seem to want to grasp any connection between income and first team squad. However much you'd like them not to be, they're entirely related.

UTB

I'm not confusing anything.
If the first team doesn't benefit from the investment we put into developing young players, there's not much point.
As it stands, we're about to drop into the third tier of English football having recently developed two England u-21 internationals, one of whom is already nearly a full international, and several other half decent players in recent years with hopefully one or two more to come.
You cannot separate the mismanagement of the club from the mismanagement of the youth set up within that.
All it's done so far is annoy the hell out of fans pissed off that we sold our best players in the blink of an eye and ended up losing far more in revenue as a result.
Which is why income and first team squad is entirely related - look at the income we've gained and look at what we've lost and how much more we're about to lose.
Mebbes you're not grasping the economics.

 

[alcoblade]

I'm not confusing anything.
If the first team doesn't benefit from the investment we put into developing young players.

It has benefited. By not having to raise a further £10M to keep us afloat. It's not rocket science.

UTB

 

[Bladesway]

Billy Sharp is the best example of how not being joined up from Academy to first team can make you look silly. Yes our academy produced him, then we sold him for £100k, then we bought him back for close to £2m then we sold him again for £1.1m. You couldn't make that up really could you?

 

[alcoblade]

Billy Sharp is the best example of how not being joined up from Academy to first team can make you look silly. Yes our academy produced him, then we sold him for £100k, then we bought him back for close to £2m then we sold him again for £1.1m. You couldn't make that up really could you?

Agreed. A total farce. But in itself, that's nothing to do with the academy. It produced a top class championship striker. Subsequent external management ballsed it up.

I'm actually not convnced that the academy is worthwhile when you consider its cost V its' reward. But that doesn't alter the way we should judge the success of the academy, and how we should seperate that from subsequent club management.

UTB

 

[beechblade]

What are its total costs overall though, United rent out the Academy, to Sheffield and Hallamshire FA and the community, it aint cheap and I doubt it will cover all the over heads but I'm not sure exactly. I do remember it being bloody dear for one third of the indoor pitch, stupidly dear.

 

[judge]

What are its total costs overall though, United rent out the Academy, to Sheffield and Hallamshire FA and the community, it aint cheap and I doubt it will cover all the over heads but I'm not sure exactly. I do remember it being bloody dear for one third of the indoor pitch, stupidly dear.

its self sufficient apparently

 

[lenners]

It has benefited. By not having to raise a further £10M to keep us afloat. It's not rocket science.

UTB

That doesn't make any sense.
We could have raised £30m in sales but if we've mismanaged the first team to such an extent we're in League One it means nothing.
Unfortunately, despite everything that's happened, you're still stuck in the mentality that quite a few trotted out on here when the sales went through.
Which was we had to do it, we needed the money, we had no choice.
We're about to lose the amount we raised from those sales in one easy relegation step.
We've lost as much and more since we sold them. The damage that's been done to the heart of the club and the subsequent disillusion of the fans is incalcuable.
You cannot divorce the overall management of the club from how you benefit or otherwise from the youth set up.
Otherwise you'd be saying the academy was doing its job raising multi-millions because we had to pay that money for Joe Bloggs after we signed him from the Rose and Crown.
You've got to think in the round, have a proper vision for the club.
What we've done is benefited Spurs, Aston Villa, QPR and Leicester who are benefiting from the players we developed.
That is not a success for our youth set-up.

 

[Bladesway]

Agreed. A total farce. But in itself, that's nothing to do with the academy. It produced a top class championship striker. Subsequent external management ballsed it up.

I'm actually not convnced that the academy is worthwhile when you consider its cost V its' reward. But that doesn't alter the way we should judge the success of the academy, and how we should seperate that from subsequent club management.

UTB

But thats always been my point, the Academy means nothing if the first team doesn't benefit from it.

 

[shorehamview]

My personal belief about the way the Academy and club are run is that the first team should be the top tier of a well structured system that starts from the tiny sprogs and continues upwards. The problem is not getting a well run Academy - we've got that already. The problem is the transition from the Academy to the first team squad, where managers and coaching staff change with far more regularity than the Academy.

The average time for a manager at a professional football club can be measured these days in months rather than years, with a few exceptions like Fergie and Wenger in the Premier League and Dario Gradi's long involvement with Crewe being the stand-out examples. Most managers don't see the products of each club's youth system coming through in the long term because they'll be long gone by the time a 15 year old is ready to play for the first team, and they will want to play their system rather than adopt the club's ethos on playing.

United need to get whatever manager is in charge to follow up on the way the Academy plays by taking the same way through to the first team, and I can't see many managers accepting that. Perhaps our next managerial appointment should be internal?

Having an Academy that is self-funding through player sales isn't enough now. Sure, selling the Kyles was good business as far as the Academy goes, in that the funds mean the Academy can continue, and any young player coming through knows that if he's good enough he'll get his chance, even if it's somewhere else, but perhaps it could become self-funding while letting us hold onto players too? Sell one, keep one? Sell one, two or three of the lesser players to keep the better one?

Our past policy of letting players go to lower division clubs for a season will certainly pay off next season, when we can have a host of Academy players turning out for that well known League One club, Sheffield United. At least they'll have some fight and passion, something that a good 75% of this season's squad have not.

 

[alcoblade]

That doesn't make any sense.
We could have raised £30m in sales but if we've mismanaged the first team to such an extent we're in League One it means nothing.
Unfortunately, despite everything that's happened, you're still stuck in the mentality that quite a few trotted out on here when the sales went through.
Which was we had to do it, we needed the money, we had no choice.
We're about to lose the amount we raised from those sales in one easy relegation step.
We've lost as much and more since we sold them. The damage that's been done to the heart of the club and the subsequent disillusion of the fans is incalcuable.
You cannot divorce the overall management of the club from how you benefit or otherwise from the youth set up.
Otherwise you'd be saying the academy was doing its job raising multi-millions because we had to pay that money for Joe Bloggs after we signed him from the Rose and Crown.
You've got to think in the round, have a proper vision for the club.
What we've done is benefited Spurs, Aston Villa, QPR and Leicester who are benefiting from the players we developed.
That is not a success for our youth set-up.

By your measure, the academy could produce 3 Wayne Rooney's every year, yet if the PLC sold them you'd argue that the academy had failed. Clearly that would be the PLC at fault. But it doesn't fit your argument so you wont see that. Pointless as ever....

UTB

 

[shorehamview]

By your measure, the academy could produce 3 Wayne Rooney's every year, yet if the PLC sold them you'd argue that the academy had failed. Clearly that would be the PLC at fault. But it doesn't fit your argument so you wont see that. Pointless as ever....

UTB

I can see lenners's's's point, even though it's in the same trousers as the last 4,000 times. We have spunked away the money. We didn't set out to do it, unless the board really did decide to royally fuck us over. The money is still gone though. We need to be selling players when we want to rather than when we need to.

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

I can see lenners's's's point, even though it's in the same trousers as the last 4,000 times. We have spunked away the money. We didn't set out to do it, unless the board really did decide to royally fuck us over. The money is still gone though. We need to be selling players when we want to rather than when we need to.

But none of that is the fault of the accademy.

We are only just seeing the real fruits of the system as these are the first batch of players to have come through the process end to end. General rule of thumb will be ten years if you are picking up kids at 7/8 years old.

MA as already commented that he wont blood tthe kids until we are mathematically down apparently, although I don't think there are many ready for the step up and you dont want to damaged the good cup run by throwing them in too early.