The Academy Critics

[CopenhagenBlade]

I notice that with the FA Youth cup success that the very vocal critics of the Academy have either changed their tune or shut up. A season or so ago they were saying what a waste of money, time and resources it was. Then there were those who said that it would take time and patience and how right they have been proved with this seasons sucess.

I hope that it isn't just a one off and that we are in as long as the semis for the next couple of years as this will attract other young players to come here in the future. Beating a club like Villa, which has probably one of the best reputations around at the moment for youth players is a huge pat on the back for Pembo and his team.

The next step is to get these players ready for 1st team football as there is a huge gap between the 2, whatever the fans think having watched last nights game.

Congrats Pembo.

 

[lenners]

Oh really?
SUFC academy been going for what, 10 years, more?
Produced two players of genuine quality, both sold, one of reasonable Championship quality, also sold before being bought back and sold again, and one who looks like he'll make it.
The income will just about cover running costs and has frankly done nothing to change the culture and ethos of the club which has utlimately led us to this season's pile of shyte.
And I'd really hold your horses before you start shouting about Youth Cup success. Let's see how many make it.

 

[SteelCity Blade]

Let's see how many make it.

This will be the key to measuring its success. Getting to the youth cup final is a great achievement and I'm pleased for the academy lads and Pembo, but it will all mean very little if we dont end up seeing a decent number of these players in the first team. Yes we should applaud this latest achievement but it has to lead to something positive for the senior set-up.....otherwise the academy will have been a pointless waste of resources.

I still hold out a lot of hope that we will reap the benefits of it but time will tell. At the same time, the club as a whole needs to take a long term attitude and start giving young players a chance, rather than take the short term option continually by signing journeymen from other clubs.

 

[alcoblade]

I notice that with the FA Youth cup success that the very vocal critics of the Academy have either changed their tune or shut up. A season or so ago they were saying what a waste of money, time and resources it was. Then there were those who said that it would take time and patience and how right they have been proved with this seasons sucess.

I hope that it isn't just a one off and that we are in as long as the semis for the next couple of years as this will attract other young players to come here in the future. Beating a club like Villa, which has probably one of the best reputations around at the moment for youth players is a huge pat on the back for Pembo and his team.

The next step is to get these players ready for 1st team football as there is a huge gap between the 2, whatever the fans think having watched last nights game.

Congrats Pembo.

The youth cup success is a nice pointer as to the work the academy is doing. But that's where it ends. The academy is a means to an end. It's there to produce players for the first team, or at least to generate more money than it saps and hence generate revenue to (in the end) help produce players for the first team squad.

Other than feel good factor, in itself winning the youth cup would add no power to the pro argument for an academy. The emergence of a player or two from that squad would be a different strory.

UTB

 

[FleaPitBlade]

Those who've been and gone before the current crop wont have been in the acadamy from being really young pups which is widely regarded as the most important stage in terms of technical development of footballing ability in youngsters.

If its been going for 10 years, as Len says, then that would mean the current youth team have been in the system since they were around 8 or 9 years old and thus the first group who you really call 'graduates' of the acadamy system in its entirity...

 

[beechblade]

It's produced two that have earnt the club big recently, but what about Jag's, Monty, Tonge, Forte, Billy Sharp, Law and I'm sure there are others dotted around. Whether you class them as the Academy or not they came through our youth set up that was being structured around the Academy being set up.

Its produced a few this season that have earnt professional contracts, Long, Lowton, James, Chappell, did Slew get a pro contract too?

Whether they're at United or not now, other players have progressed into the professional game, there are 92 football league clubs and thousands of young players trying to earn professional contracts each year, the odds are massively stacked against any kid.

 

[Houso]

It's produced two that have earnt the club big recently, but what about Jag's, Monty, Tonge, Forte, Billy Sharp, Law and I'm sure there are others dotted around.

Its produced a few this season that have earnt professional contracts, Long, Lowton, James, Chappell, did Slew get a pro contract too?

Whether they're at United or not now, other players have progressed into the professional game, there are 92 football league clubs and thousands of young players trying to earn professional contracts each year, the odds are massively stacked against any kid. Then you have to remember the fact that really talented player will be taken from our Academy to the likes

The argument will be that Jags et al started in the Centre of Excellence and weren't Academy products. But, they were part of the Academy at some point, and thus will have had some benefit from it.

 

[beechblade]

The argument will be that Jags et al started in the Centre of Excellence and weren't Academy products. But, they were part of the Academy at some point, and thus will have had some benefit from it.

Yeah I just edited that bit in when I saw what Presty had put.

 

[SteelCity Blade]

The thing is though beech, it depends on what you use the academy for and hence base its success upon. Do you use it to:-

a) Improve the fortunes of the first team?
or
b) Create saleable assets to provide a stream of income?

I'm far more in favour of the former (as most would be I imagine). The latter has been more prevalent at our club with the likes of Naughton and Walker moving on to bigger clubs.....but can this be seen as a success???? When you see the kind of money that has been pissed away on crap loan signings and journeymen (not to mention on good players who didnt get us back up) I would suggest its been of no benefit to us at all!

 

[lenners]

Academy's been going 10 years or near enough, let's say.
In that time we've had one season in the top flight and are about to go into League One.
It's great that they've got through to the final but what's the point of having a successful youth policy if you sell your best products in five minutes, don't structure your club to give them the best possible chance by playing proper football from top to bottom and end up in League One?

 

[CopenhagenBlade]

Oh really?
SUFC academy been going for what, 10 years, more?
Produced two players of genuine quality, both sold, one of reasonable Championship quality, also sold before being bought back and sold again, and one who looks like he'll make it.
The income will just about cover running costs and has frankly done nothing to change the culture and ethos of the club which has utlimately led us to this season's pile of shyte.
And I'd really hold your horses before you start shouting about Youth Cup success. Let's see how many make it.

The point is you haven't used as a stick to beat the club with as you were, because it is now doing what it was created to do.
If you read my post I am holding my horses if you read the sentence that starts, 'The next step...'
I think that it is a success that a Championship level club has reached the final and beaten the club with the best Youth Team set up in England to get there. Yes the 1st team is rotten and there are some serious issues to address with the club as a whole but it is funny that you have gone from shutting the whole thing down as it is a waste of money to complaining that you couldn't get a ticket to a game.

 

[lenners]

The point is you haven't used as a stick to beat the club with as you were, because it is now doing what it was created to do.
If you read my post I am holding my horses if you read the sentence that starts, 'The next step...'
I think that it is a success that a Championship level club has reached the final and beaten the club with the best Youth Team set up in England to get there. Yes the 1st team is rotten and there are some serious issues to address with the club as a whole but it is funny that you have gone from shutting the whole thing down as it is a waste of money to complaining that you couldn't get a ticket to a game.

Sorry Copenhagen but deliberately or otherwise you're avoiding several obvious points that have been made.

 

[beechblade]

The thing is though beech, it depends on what you use the academy for and hence base its success upon. Do you use it to:-

a) Improve the fortunes of the first team?
or
b) Create saleable assets to provide a stream of income?

I'm far more in favour of the former (as most would be I imagine). The latter has been more prevalent at our club with the likes of Naughton and Walker moving on to bigger clubs.....but can this be seen as a success???? When you see the kind of money that has been pissed away on crap loan signings and journeymen (not to mention on good players who didnt get us back up) I would suggest its been of no benefit to us at all!

Oh I'd rather it be the former, but it can also be used for both, we need good youths coming through, it has to be our focus now. But lets face if they're that good at the moment we aren't in the position to turn big money down, we just need to find a decent balance, and thats easier said than done. We also need managers that are willing to use Academy players too, and I'm not talking about throwing them on for the last 5 minutes, they need longer spells in the game. Now that doesn't mean rush them into the starting line up but it also doesn't mean throw them on when all hope of winning the game are lost either.

 

[CopenhagenBlade]

Them being?

 

[Pinchy]

Academy's been going 10 years or near enough, let's say.
In that time we've had one season in the top flight and are about to go into League One.
It's great that they've got through to the final but what's the point of having a successful youth policy if you ....don't structure your club to give them the best possible chance by playing proper football from top to bottom ...

Exactly.

That, in a nutshell, is why Quickfix Micky & Co have to go. Not the appalling results, not the horrific signings, but that one simple proposition.

 

[beechblade]

Exactly.

That, in a nutshell, is why Quickfix Micky & Co have to go. Not the appalling results, not the horrific signings, but that one simple proposition.

Micky has been here 4 months now, how can you judge what type of football he will play when he gets a proper pre season under his belt and proper time to restructure a team?

 

[Rustyblade]

There is no point in getting excited about what is going to be nothing more than a revenue stream for the club. The ones worth keeping will be sold and the first team will see no benefit at all except for a few shop window games like the Kyles.

Move along, nothing to see here.

 

[Micalijo]

Micky has been here 4 months now, how can you judge what type of football he will play when he gets a proper pre season under his belt and proper time to restructure a team?

Come on Beech. I think Cork and Bassett give us some clues as to what we will get from Alehouse. Add Doyle, Monty and Collins into the mix and it really isn't that difficult to see that proper football will not be given its chance at BDTBL for as long as he is manager.

 

[MunXy]

hold up, first off the acadamy at any club MIGHT produce 1 or 2 that end up in the first team, only once to my knowledge has any acadamy produced more from any one lot of players and that was 20+ years ago at man ure becks, giggs, scholes etc and that was a definate one off, no other team has produced such a large clutch of youth players.
if pembo gets 2 progressing to the first team, to me thats success any more than that will, if they prove good enough will be incredible.
as for micky giving them a chance, it could be that hes being smart or that pembo is telling him they aren't quite ready, either way we may see a few cameos before season end, but id expect nothing more this season but many more next season.
give micky and pembo and the young un's a bit of time and stop pressurising them, last things kids need is pressure and not throwing them in while we still playing without confidance is a sure fire way to kill a career before it starts.

MunXy

 

[lenners]

Them being?

I can't make you read them but they're there.
Just re-reading yours, is it your belief that getting to the Youth Cup final is the academy 'now doing what it was created to do'?

---------- Post added at 06:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:10 PM ----------

hold up, first off the acadamy at any club MIGHT produce 1 or 2 that end up in the first team, only once to my knowledge has any acadamy produced more from any one lot of players and that was 20+ years ago at man ure becks, giggs, scholes etc and that was a definate one off, no other team has produced such a large clutch of youth players.
if pembo gets 2 progressing to the first team, to me thats success any more than that will, if they prove good enough will be incredible.
as for micky giving them a chance, it could be that hes being smart or that pembo is telling him they aren't quite ready, either way we may see a few cameos before season end, but id expect nothing more this season but many more next season.
give micky and pembo and the young un's a bit of time and stop pressurising them, last things kids need is pressure and not throwing them in while we still playing without confidance is a sure fire way to kill a career before it starts.

MunXy

Middlesbrough fielded a whole XI in the Prem who were locally produced.
Southampton's FA Youth Cup side of 2005 had Walcott, Lallana, Nathan Dyer and Bale in it and possible others.

 

[BornOnShorehamStreet]

Pembo on RS says one or two will be in the first team before the end of the season

 

[CopenhagenBlade]

I can't make you read them but they're there.
Just re-reading yours, is it your belief that getting to the Youth Cup final is the academy 'now doing what it was created to do'?


---------- Post added at 06:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:10 PM ----------



Middlesbrough fielded a whole XI in the Prem who were locally produced.
Southampton's FA Youth Cup side of 2005 had Walcott, Lallana, Nathan Dyer and Bale in it and possible others.

Well I can't see them so you will just have to enlighten me and then I will answer them, please.

It is my belief that yes getting to the YCF is the first step of doing what the academy was created for and that is producing and developing talented footballers in their age group. Step 2 is developing those players so that they are ready to play 1st team football. As I said in my first comment there is a big step up from youth to senior football so I think that it would be pretty impressive if 4 of that team made it to play consistantly for the 1st team. Maybe not this season as that might be a mistake given the current plight but certainly next season.

 

[lenners]

The youth team got to the quarters in 2007 and included Naughton, Walker and Lowton.
Being brutally honest, we don't have anyone who looks as good as the two Kyles in the current team.
The academy has produced good players, including presumably Mellis who I'd forgotten about, but what has happened to the first team in that time and what use have those young players been?
You could say we wouldn't have finished third without the two Kyles, particularly Naughton, two years ago but then we sold them. Mellis was sold, albeit in different circumstances, without playing for us. Lowton looks as if he's going to make it but isn't in the same class as the Kyles.
The argument is that there's no point in having a good youth policy if the club and first team isn't going to improve as a result.
I don't think that's hard to grasp.
Interestingly, Southampton wasted their golden generation whereas Middlesbrough benefited - even though they had so much money they hardly needed them.

 

[oldblade]

Pembo on RS says one or two will be in the first team before the end of the season

From what I saw last night I would imagine Maguire will be one of those. And the goalkeeper Long looked pretty good to me, although it has to be said that he didn't have a great deal to do. But it was good to see a goalkeeper coming for crosses and knowing when it was right to try and catch the ball, and when it was right to punch it away.

However, I'm not sure I'd want to see any of the youth team in the current first team. Not because they are not good enough. But because I wouldn't want them to be tainted by the current first team. They may be better coming in next season when the decks have been cleared a bit.

 

[Bladesway]

I notice that with the FA Youth cup success that the very vocal critics of the Academy have either changed their tune or shut up. A season or so ago they were saying what a waste of money, time and resources it was. Then there were those who said that it would take time and patience and how right they have been proved with this seasons sucess.

I hope that it isn't just a one off and that we are in as long as the semis for the next couple of years as this will attract other young players to come here in the future. Beating a club like Villa, which has probably one of the best reputations around at the moment for youth players is a huge pat on the back for Pembo and his team.

The next step is to get these players ready for 1st team football as there is a huge gap between the 2, whatever the fans think having watched last nights game.

Congrats Pembo.

What an arrogant pile of turd. The Academy has been sporadic at best. Its provided the two Kyles and you could argue Jacob Mellis. As soon as these have reared their heads they have been sold to the first bidder.

Weren't we winning cups in Ireland and being penned in for having the best youth team about 5 years ago? That would suggest these things go in cycles rather than are a work of genius. In any case, we have no option but to get them ready for the first team because all we have right now is a steaming pile of crap that is barely fit for purpose thanks for Short Arms McCabe and his managerial merry-go-round.

No one has been proved right or wrong here, we all hope for a successful academy but some have their doubts. FFS is it more important that your view is right in the long term and that people "shut up", or shouldn't we look at a constructive and objective view of both the good and the bad?

---------- Post added at 08:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:30 PM ----------

Pembo on RS says one or two will be in the first team before the end of the season

If its Collins or one of the boot cleaners, surely the boot cleaner wins?

 

[Elsecar_Blade]

For goodness sake, there isn't another football club I know that could have so many people criticising the fact that our youngsters have made the FA Youth Cup Final.

Will they all make it into our first team? No.

Will they all make it into other football league club's first team? No.

Will they all make it in football? No.

However, they wore red and white striped shirts last night and did me proud. There were a few lads that did impress me greatly and should be able to make it at SUFC on that performance.

Some people need to stop using everything as a stick to beat United. We've had a crap season, we're going down, any of them that are any good will probably be sold but let's be happy that one aspect of the red and white wizards is showing us a glimmer of hope.

UTB

 

[Bladesway]

For goodness sake, there isn't another football club I know that could have so many people criticising the fact that our youngsters have made the FA Youth Cup Final.

Will they all make it into our first team? No.

Will they all make it into other football league club's first team? No.

Will they all make it in football? No.

However, they wore red and white striped shirts last night and did me proud. There were a few lads that did impress me greatly and should be able to make it at SUFC on that performance.

Some people need to stop using everything as a stick to beat United. We've had a crap season, we're going down, any of them that are any good will probably be sold but let's be happy that one aspect of the red and white wizards is showing us a glimmer of hope.

UTB

"we all hope for a successful academy"

I think you will find my own personal opinion summed up in the above statement.

 

[MunXy]

Middlesbrough fielded a whole XI in the Prem who were locally produced.
Southampton's FA Youth Cup side of 2005 had Walcott, Lallana, Nathan Dyer and Bale in it and possible others.

exceptions to the rule thats man ure, boro and saints, out of 92 clubs in how many years?
doesn't happen often, by that percentage its almost 0%

MunXy

 

[oaklandrdblade]

In some ways I am glad that there are no 'new Kyles' as it may mean we get to see them play for us for more than a season before they inevitably move on.

 

[CopenhagenBlade]

What an arrogant pile of turd. The Academy has been sporadic at best. Its provided the two Kyles and you could argue Jacob Mellis. As soon as these have reared their heads they have been sold to the first bidder.

Weren't we winning cups in Ireland and being penned in for having the best youth team about 5 years ago? That would suggest these things go in cycles rather than are a work of genius. In any case, we have no option but to get them ready for the first team because all we have right now is a steaming pile of crap that is barely fit for purpose thanks for Short Arms McCabe and his managerial merry-go-round.

No one has been proved right or wrong here, we all hope for a successful academy but some have their doubts. FFS is it more important that your view is right in the long term and that people "shut up", or shouldn't we look at a constructive and objective view of both the good and the bad?

---------- Post added at 08:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:30 PM ----------



If its Collins or one of the boot cleaners, surely the boot cleaner wins?

Thanks for that Bladesway. You are obviously a bit touchy on the subject and lets not give the club or Pembo any praise but put it down to good old fashioned luck. I never said that we should give the academy time but some did as opposed to those that want to criticise the club for every decision that it takes. I was looking at it constructively and said that I hoped that this was not a one off as success would breed success but maybe you struggled past the first sentence.