That There Pathway

All advertisments are hidden for logged in members, why not log in/register?

R

robbiez666

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2009
Messages
19,237
Reaction score
26,534
There's been a lot of talk about pathways for the youth over the last year. For me, it's not merely a case of producing good players, it's about having young/development players in place who can slot in to cover an injury or a departure.

We're going to be a selling club because we're not a rich club. We need to be a selling club in the same style as Southampton. We need to bring the youngsters through and in a position to step-up when needed. We also need to have a list of potential replacements in case for every position. Southampton are still a selling club but they've wisely invested in replacements.

We're dreadful at this. There really needs to be a lot of emphasis placed on our scouting networks. I'm trying to think of the last young player we signed who went on to do well. Dellas?
 



robbiez666 said:
There's been a lot of talk about pathways for the youth over the last year. For me, it's not merely a case of producing good players, it's about having young/development players in place who can slot in to cover an injury or a departure.

We're going to be a selling club because we're not a rich club. We need to be a selling club in the same style as Southampton. We need to bring the youngsters through and in a position to step-up when needed. We also need to have a list of potential replacements in case for every position. Southampton are still a selling club but they've wisely invested in replacements.

We're dreadful at this. There really needs to be a lot of emphasis placed on our scouting networks. I'm trying to think of the last young player we signed who went on to do well. Dellas?
Click to expand...

Seriously? dellas?

We've been in league one for 5 years and our academy still attracts young lads from the region.

The Coca Cola kid did alright, Kyle Walker was home grown, but jags was picked up in his teens, like tonge. Lowton also went into the prem

We're picking up young lads when they're cast off from the pl clubs - whiteman being a recent one to break the first team.

I think from a youth perspective were not far off it and perhaps with Nick cox heading to Man U we'll see a link there...? Who knows

It's the first team where we've got issues, the academy is out performing it, but at a sacking club the managers will always be reluctant to use and develop them as they wont see the full benefits in the year that they're managing us.

Adkins was poor in bringing through young lads until after the JTW closed. Clough margainly better( signed Che and Wallace too) and Wilson wasn't great. Too much pressure to get promoted right now rather than develop youngsters as were not in a position where were financially stable enough to farm them out to league one to develop. We're stuck with a choice of playing them now, loan to league 2 or release
 
SwissBlade said:
Seriously? dellas?

We've been in league one for 5 years and our academy still attracts young lads from the region.

The Coca Cola kid did alright, Kyle Walker was home grown, but jags was picked up in his teens, like tonge. Lowton also went into the prem

We're picking up young lads when they're cast off from the pl clubs - whiteman being a recent one to break the first team.

I think from a youth perspective were not far off it and perhaps with Nick cox heading to Man U we'll see a link there...? Who knows

It's the first team where we've got issues, the academy is out performing it, but at a sacking club the managers will always be reluctant to use and develop them as they wont see the full benefits in the year that they're managing us.

Adkins was poor in bringing through young lads until after the JTW closed. Clough margainly better( signed Che and Wallace too) and Wilson wasn't great. Too much pressure to get promoted right now rather than develop youngsters as were not in a position where were financially stable enough to farm them out to league one to develop. We're stuck with a choice of playing them now, loan to league 2 or release
Click to expand...

I was talking in terms of signings and not picking up released youth players. We're still doing that (Brooks for instance) but there's a different scouting network for that which goes alongside the Academy.
 
wardonia_blade said:
Agree. They got £16m for Chambers and we got £2m ?? for the vastly superior Walker.
Click to expand...
They sold Chambers after he'd played a season in the PL, to a club that plays Champions League football, in 2014, for an undisclosed sum that is thought to rise to up to £16m including add-ons.

There's a few differences.
 
robbiez666 said:
I was talking in terms of signings and not picking up released youth players. We're still doing that (Brooks for instance) but there's a different scouting network for that which goes alongside the Academy.
Click to expand...
But this is the point. We're not in a financial position to 'gamble' on 18 year olds whilst in this division, you've seen that the squad size has had to be reduced massively.

So we're doing it more when the lads are younger, less developed, more of a risk, yes, but a cheaper risk

Financially it's a better gamble
 
BushBlade said:
They sold Chambers after he'd played a season in the PL, to a club that plays Champions League football, in 2014, for an undisclosed sum that is thought to rise to up to £16m including add-ons.

There's a few differences.
Click to expand...

You'll be saying we got good value next.
 
I am struggling to see a long term future for the Academy whilst we are where we are division wise. EPPP changes the ball game significantly and I suspect the reason such emphasis is being placed on the pathway is that the Academy will have to prove it is beneficial cost-benefit wise to continue with it in its present form or face radical surgery.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...s-bad-for-the-future-of-the-English-game.html
 
And we close the academy then we all moan that we never produce any local players and they all end up at The Pigs, Leeds or Barnsley.

At this present time the academy cant do anything right in some eyes. Two finals, a great season against some premier league clubs, championship clubs and its still not enough. Still you say the players aren't good enough......

The pigs have given 4 first year scholars professional contracts this season. Not one of them is a patch on three of our Gilmoor, Semple and Hallam. Thats a fact.....

EPPP argument is bollocks. Any club can buy any youth player no matter what CAT you are. How many players do CAT1 produce? Very few if any at all.

I would be very careful what you wish for.

A possible team of over paid shite that does not give one shit about our club and what it means to play for them ....... a bit like last season then.
 
larkymasher said:
And we close the academy then we all moan that we never produce any local players and they all end up at The Pigs, Leeds or Barnsley.

At this present time the academy cant do anything right in some eyes. Two finals, a great season against some premier league clubs, championship clubs and its still not enough. Still you say the players aren't good enough......

The pigs have given 4 first year scholars professional contracts this season. Not one of them is a patch on three of our Gilmoor, Semple and Hallam. Thats a fact.....

EPPP argument is bollocks. Any club can buy any youth player no matter what CAT you are. How many players do CAT1 produce? Very few if any at all.

I would be very careful what you wish for.

A possible team of over paid shite that does not give one shit about our club and what it means to play for them ....... a bit like last season then.
Click to expand...
EPPP argument is not bollocks and is the reason a number of small clubs have closed their academies.
EPPP has significantly reduced the compensation payable for taking academy players. It means a CAT 2 academy can develop a kid from age 9 to 15, lose him to a CAT 1 academy and receive a pittance in compensation.
 
Small clubs have closed their academies not on the back of potential fees for the odd star player who may move on.

They have closed their academies as the club and owners do not feel they can't or won't sustain the financial side of it. That is a model they wish to run their club by.

Do you honestly believe that SUFC Academy budget there finances on the off chance that a CAT1 club might take a player? No they don't. They take a decision to nurture and promote their own players for the first team as that is their preferred route.

Both clubs have sat down and decided what is best for them. To use the EPPP ruling is nonsense. If we had a Walker Naughton scenario again we would expect to gain the same fees as before.

Fleetwood have invested £5m on a new academy facility. If your argument is correct why have they done that? I am very sure someone has had a good look at how they want to move forward.

The academies closing down are the ones who invest in large scholar fees, giving too many pro contracts too early and investing in bringing foreign kids over from France or Spain. Brentford for instance.

I understand we disagree but young players have moved to so called bigger clubs from the year dot.......
 
Can i also say that the smaller clubs we talk about are CAT3 Academies.

We are on thin ice if all of a sudden we are lumping SUFC into the small clubs group.
 



robbiez666 said:
There's been a lot of talk about pathways for the youth over the last year. For me, it's not merely a case of producing good players, it's about having young/development players in place who can slot in to cover an injury or a departure.

We're going to be a selling club because we're not a rich club. We need to be a selling club in the same style as Southampton. We need to bring the youngsters through and in a position to step-up when needed. We also need to have a list of potential replacements in case for every position. Southampton are still a selling club but they've wisely invested in replacements.

We're dreadful at this. There really needs to be a lot of emphasis placed on our scouting networks. I'm trying to think of the last young player we signed who went on to do well. Dellas?
Click to expand...



Depends what you mean by “do well”. Murphy, Blackman, McDonald, are all playing at a higher level than us (on top of those we brought through like Quinn, Maguire, Kyles, Lowton etc.). Before that we’re probably looking back to Brown, Bent etc.


But I agree that our recruitment on the whole has not been good enough. I also think we sell too early and too cheap. Southampton held on for big money for their outgoing young players. Kyle Walker is the most damning example. Naughton and Lowton at least we got decent fees.


When you look back to the days of Bassett getting Deane, Agana, Kelly, Tracey etc. for pocket change then it shows how bad our recruitment has been over recent years.
 
SwissBlade said:
Seriously? dellas?

We've been in league one for 5 years and our academy still attracts young lads from the region.

The Coca Cola kid did alright, Kyle Walker was home grown, but jags was picked up in his teens, like tonge. Lowton also went into the prem

We're picking up young lads when they're cast off from the pl clubs - whiteman being a recent one to break the first team.

I think from a youth perspective were not far off it and perhaps with Nick cox heading to Man U we'll see a link there...? Who knows

It's the first team where we've got issues, the academy is out performing it, but at a sacking club the managers will always be reluctant to use and develop them as they wont see the full benefits in the year that they're managing us.

Adkins was poor in bringing through young lads until after the JTW closed. Clough margainly better( signed Che and Wallace too) and Wilson wasn't great. Too much pressure to get promoted right now rather than develop youngsters as were not in a position where were financially stable enough to farm them out to league one to develop. We're stuck with a choice of playing them now, loan to league 2 or release
Click to expand...


I thought Wilson was decent with the youth. Gave game time to Long, Maguire, Kennedy, McFadzean, Harriett, Whitehouse, Ironside, De Girolamo, Slew (before he was sold). Only Maguire was consistently good enough to hold onto the shirt but they all got a chance (DdG unlucky with the injury).
 
BushBlade said:
They sold Chambers after he'd played a season in the PL, to a club that plays Champions League football, in 2014, for an undisclosed sum that is thought to rise to up to £16m including add-ons.

There's a few differences.
Click to expand...


Still a huge difference in how it was managed. Walker sold far too early and far too cheap. If he’d had another season with us he’d have gone for more like £8million. Awful business on our part.
 
larkymasher said:
Small clubs have closed their academies not on the back of potential fees for the odd star player who may move on.

They have closed their academies as the club and owners do not feel they can't or won't sustain the financial side of it. That is a model they wish to run their club by.

Do you honestly believe that SUFC Academy budget there finances on the off chance that a CAT1 club might take a player? No they don't. They take a decision to nurture and promote their own players for the first team as that is their preferred route.

Both clubs have sat down and decided what is best for them. To use the EPPP ruling is nonsense. If we had a Walker Naughton scenario again we would expect to gain the same fees as before.

Fleetwood have invested £5m on a new academy facility. If your argument is correct why have they done that? I am very sure someone has had a good look at how they want to move forward.

The academies closing down are the ones who invest in large scholar fees, giving too many pro contracts too early and investing in bringing foreign kids over from France or Spain. Brentford for instance.

I understand we disagree but young players have moved to so called bigger clubs from the year dot.......
Click to expand...
I think you're missing the point. If we had a Walker now, aged 15 and going to be offered a pro contract next season, he could be poached by a CAT 1 academy and we would receive little compensation. Some clubs have taken the view there is little point investing a lot of money in developing these players to lose them without decent compensation or having the chance to bring them through to the first team.
You referred to the Brentford academy which, apparently, costs £1.5m per season to run. Unless you either produce first team players regularly, or get one every few years that is sold for a lot of money, how do you justify the expense?

For the record, I am in favour of the academy and I don't want it to close but coming second in our age groups is not enough to justify it. We need it to be producing players.

You can hear that in what KM is saying.
 
1danewhitehouse said:
Still a huge difference in how it was managed. Walker sold far too early and far too cheap. If he’d had another season with us he’d have gone for more like £8million. Awful business on our part.
Click to expand...
I don't agree but it's nearly ten years ago and I can't be arsed to re-heat old soup.
 
BushBlade said:
I think you're missing the point. If we had a Walker now, aged 15 and going to be offered a pro contract next season, he could be poached by a CAT 1 academy and we would receive little compensation. Some clubs have taken the view there is little point investing a lot of money in developing these players to lose them without decent compensation or having the chance to bring them through to the first team.
You referred to the Brentford academy which, apparently, costs £1.5m per season to run. Unless you either produce first team players regularly, or get one every few years that is sold for a lot of money, how do you justify the expense?

For the record, I am in favour of the academy and I don't want it to close but coming second in our age groups is not enough to justify it. We need it to be producing players.

You can hear that in what KM is saying.
Click to expand...


Didn't Adkins start pushing for us to become a CAT 1 academy for this reason. Any idea if that's the plan?
 
BushBlade said:
I think you're missing the point. If we had a Walker now, aged 15 and going to be offered a pro contract next season, he could be poached by a CAT 1 academy and we would receive little compensation. Some clubs have taken the view there is little point investing a lot of money in developing these players to lose them without decent compensation or having the chance to bring them through to the first team.
You referred to the Brentford academy which, apparently, costs £1.5m per season to run. Unless you either produce first team players regularly, or get one every few years that is sold for a lot of money, how do you justify the expense?

For the record, I am in favour of the academy and I don't want it to close but coming second in our age groups is not enough to justify it. We need it to be producing players.

You can hear that in what KM is saying.
Click to expand...
I agree that we need to produce first team players.

I think my point is that with KM stating 50% of homegrown talent etc etc this has put an undue pressure on lads who are trying to make their way in the game. There is without doubt a nucleus of 16/17 year olds who are coming through and being exposed to u21 football which will speed development up. Next season these boys will be 17/18 and starting to push forward.

If KM had held on to his thoughts a little then we would be praising the younger players rather than looking at them NOW and making decisions on whether they are good enough ................
 
1danewhitehouse said:
Didn't Adkins start pushing for us to become a CAT 1 academy for this reason. Any idea if that's the plan?
Click to expand...
I'd be surprised. I'd guess that a CAT 1 academy is more expensive to run than a CAT 2 so I can't see it happening until we're back in the championship.

My concern is that if the pigs go up, they'll have the cash to set up a CAT 1 and start taking the best local prospects. If we haven't sorted ourselves out by then we may as well shut it.
 
larkymasher said:
I agree that we need to produce first team players.

I think my point is that with KM stating 50% of homegrown talent etc etc this has put an undue pressure on lads who are trying to make their way in the game. There is without doubt a nucleus of 16/17 year olds who are coming through and being exposed to u21 football which will speed development up. Next season these boys will be 17/18 and starting to push forward.

If KM had held on to his thoughts a little then we would be praising the younger players rather than looking at them NOW and making decisions on whether they are good enough ................
Click to expand...
He'll never hold onto his thoughts though. Or be consistent in his thinking.
 
The Pigs facilities are not anywhere near good enough required to gain CAT1 status.

You need a minimum of 4 full size pitches, full size out door astro and an indoor facility which is made of brick. Not the big fucking condom they claim is indoor !
 
BushBlade said:
They sold Chambers after he'd played a season in the PL, to a club that plays Champions League football, in 2014, for an undisclosed sum that is thought to rise to up to £16m including add-ons.

There's a few differences.
Click to expand...

You're right of course. I'd say Theo Walcott is a better example of a parallel with Walker: he'd only played in the Championship at the time (about 20 games) and went for £5m, rising to £12m with add ons. According to Wikipedia they eventually got £9.1m for him.
 
BusheyBlade said:
You're right of course. I'd say Theo Walcott is a better example of a parallel with Walker: he'd only played in the Championship at the time (about 20 games) and went for £5m, rising to £12m with add ons. According to Wikipedia they eventually got £9.1m for him.
Click to expand...
And Walcott was an attacking player, who traditionally attract higher transfer fees, going to a club playing champions league football, which means they thought he was potentially good enough to play at the top, top level.

If Man U and Arsenal had been fighting over Walker then I'd have expected us to get a much higher fee. But they weren't.
 



You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

SUFCScorecard
Pathway to the Playoffs
7 8 9
Replies
246
Views
18K
LBA_Blade
LBA_Blade
IdLiketoRogerMoore
We still need to be fitter!
2
Replies
33
Views
2K
TJ blade
T
Shadota
Our club is inherently broken, but current on-pitch issues are distracting from the bigger picture.
4 5 6
Replies
166
Views
9K
Maidenhead
M
mattbianco1
Just play O'Hare
Replies
26
Views
3K
3Cheers4Ramirez
3Cheers4Ramirez
F
Is this really our only option...?
3 4 5
Replies
141
Views
8K
Nick Jansky
Nick Jansky

All advertisments are hidden for logged in members, why not log in/register?

All advertisments are hidden for logged in members, why not log in/register?

Back
Top Bottom