Stadium Development

[JJBlade]

Ideally, if we have minted new owners, we'd do what Tottenham did with White Hart Lane, using the spare land around the ground to develop a new stadium, then relocate for a year when it gets to the bit where we need to knock the rest down. Completely start again, fuck the plans we have that McCabe has drawn up, we want a state of the art multi use stadium that will last.

But that's not going to happen, so let's just get the kop pillars out, get the back of the kop extended and a covered concourse, get the back of the south stand sorted out cos even a lick of paint doesn't stop it from looking like something out of Chernobyl, then we can take it from there.

Yep
Plenty of room to build a fantastic stadium at Bramall Lane if money was no object

I don't know why whenever stadium development is mentioned we alway get the "If we move from t'lane I'm done" mob chirping in

 

[SRA76]

Brilliant post and bang on.

Why are Wednesday perceived as a big club?

Even though no longer the case they used to have a bigger and better stadium and people, fans, pundits and players percieve having a bigger and better stadium as a bigger club with bigger support.

We know that’s not true but that’s how it is.

Build the stadium, build the infrastructure and it will cement our position as Sheffield’s big club for years to come.

It’s still bigger even with restrictions they had a couple of crowds over 32/33k so it’s definitely bigger than lane still. But bigger doesn’t have to be better. I think there’s nothing so wanker than a stadium with empty seats all Orr shop. Keep lane as it is and keep it full. Extend it when / if we get a team to sustain premier league status THEN build on that. Other wise we would be looking at a a 40k seater stadium with 28k in it in. Whats point in that ?

 

[Snowflake]

Don't think you have any Comprehension what compression means

..are you being a bit heavy or were you pressed for time ?

 

[Bladeloyal]

I remember Birmingham City having to close large sections of the ground through years of under investment , not sure if it's remedied yet.
Across the city there's a salutary lesson in under investment, capacity reduced from 38k to 32 k , parts of the ground closed and an aging safety certificate on the shantylever stand that apparently requires £20m just to fix and re roof . Gets to the point where the job is just too big and expensive .
It shouldn't be a question of if but a question of what and when .
We're very fortunate to have the footprint we do which allows for development of the stadium plus development of areas under the stadium . The addition of capacity and hospitality almost being a consequence of commercial development of the space beneath it.

Birmingham was a massive asbestos problem

 

[JayGreen17]

It’s still bigger even with restrictions they had a couple of crowds over 32/33k so it’s definitely bigger than lane still. But bigger doesn’t have to be better. I think there’s nothing so wanker than a stadium with empty seats all Orr shop. Keep lane as it is and keep it full. Extend it when / if we get a team to sustain premier league status THEN build on that. Other wise we would be looking at a a 40k seater stadium with 28k in it in. Whats point in that ?

Another backward looking fan, you can’t grow if you don’t have room to, to expand, simple business principles. We need a larger stadium to increase revenue, we would fill 38-40k in the prem, we would give the whole of the Bramall Lane end to away supporters for a start so that would mean home supporters filling the other 3 sides.

 

[Sheffsteel]

Moving is not the answer
Alot of the pubs would go under without matchday revenue and a few car parks .
The location is perfect for home and away fans .
I was in sheffield last weekend, the new pub on Shoreham Street would be perfect behind the kop and bring in a strong weekly income it was heaving and has own brewery .
As someone mentioned above , get concerts , get boxing matches and in the summer bring in extra income.
I saw Bruce springsteen there even the preacher Billy Graham.
Don't take away the clubs history as sonmany clubs envy bramall lane and it's location.
The southstand development looks amazing but we wouldn't fill it as yet unless the top tier was given to away support in bigger numbers as Sunderland have done.
I'm probably the only one but I think the blades will go back up next season unless we do the usual trick after season ticket sales and sell the 2 best players .

We haven’t sold our best players for years. Think the last one was Harrry Maguire in league 1. We sold Ramsdale but he was pretty underwhelming for us.

Of course we sold N’Diaye and Berge but they were in their final year and refused to sign. Quite a few clubs have a policy where they refuse to allow star players to leave on a free and we did get a good price for booth when you think prices are severely reduced when a player is in their final year.

Based on what we saw it’s pretty clear we would still be relegated even if we kept Berge and N’Diaye and now there would be a £30 million shortfall this year.

In retrospect it was a great piece of business.

 

[Sheffsteel]

Regards ground expansion there are 3 options.

Option 1: The Kop increasing capacity to 35K.
This is the worse part of the ground effecting home fans, so this should be the priority. However the return on investment is quite poor. The best financial option is the cheap option in the McCabe plan, extending on the back and building extra toilets, kiosks etc and putting it all under cover and enclosed. McCabe also mentioned that his bolt in plan means the Kop would remain fully open for most of the season, so capacity restrictions would be limited.

The issue delaying this is the implantation of safe standing, so any designs should take this into account. If we were ever allowed to follow the German model then we could increase standing capacity on the Kop to 20,000, however we would then need more toilets, kiosks etc that what’s in the plans.

Another option is we could knock the Kop stand down and build a new stand but this would be massively expensive with a poor return on investment.

Option 2: The South stand increasing capacity to 37K
In the real world this is the most important expansion. The upper tier could maybe be used for away fans however areas like the changing rooms, VIP executive areas, directors box, ticket office, club shop, media centre etc are THE FACE of the club. It’s these areas where we raise the profile of our club by impressing visitors. Imagine new signings or new investors being shown around a fancy state of the art South stand? Also it’s the executive area and VIP visitors where you increase revenues.

Option 3: Do both at the same time raising capacity to 41K.

I’m sure McCabe mentioned that he intended to do both at the same time because it’s financially cheaper.

Another issue is do we expand now or wait until we’re established in the PL. These options can only be decided by the new owners and what their ultimate ambitions are.

Note: Of course there a 4th option where we move to another site and build a brand new stadium. However don’t think this would be a good idea. There’s plenty of land around Bramall Lane and it’s in a prime city centre area surrounded by dozens of pubs and memories. We lose too much and gain too little if we move away. If both stands are done then a 41,000 capacity (making Bramall Lane the largest ground in Yorkshire) will be enough for the foreseeable future.

 

[SRA76]

Another backward looking fan, you can’t grow if you don’t have room to, to expand, simple business principles. We need a larger stadium to increase revenue, we would fill 38-40k in the prem, we would give the whole of the Bramall Lane end to away supporters for a start so that would mean home supporters filling the other 3 sides.

I like your optimism. But what makes you think we would fill it in prem. That same prem we have just been in and not filled it for 90% if not more of the entire season ? So enlighten me where are other 6/7/8k blades coming from?? NOW build a team good enough to actually stay in the prem and you can then start thinking about extending the stadium. You say I’m backward thinking then say something that is totally the backward way of doing it. lol

 

[S64 Blade]

Regards ground expansion there are 3 options.

Option 1: The Kop increasing capacity to 35K.
This is the worse part of the ground effecting home fans, so this should be the priority. However the return on investment is quite poor. The best financial option is the cheap option in the McCabe plan, extending on the back and building extra toilets, kiosks etc and putting it all under cover and enclosed. McCabe also mentioned that his bolt in plan means the Kop would remain fully open for most of the season, so capacity restrictions would be limited.

The issue delaying this is the implantation of safe standing, so any designs should take this into account. If we were ever allowed to follow the German model then we could increase standing capacity on the Kop to 20,000, however we would then need more toilets, kiosks etc that what’s in the plans.

Another option is we could knock the Kop stand down and build a new stand but this would be massively expensive with a poor return on investment.

Option 2: The South stand increasing capacity to 37K
In the real world this is the most important expansion. The upper tier could maybe be used for away fans however areas like the changing rooms, VIP executive areas, directors box, ticket office, club shop, media centre etc are THE FACE of the club. It’s these areas where we raise the profile of our club by impressing visitors. Imagine new signings or new investors being shown around a fancy state of the art South stand? Also it’s the executive area and VIP visitors where you increase revenues.

Option 3: Do both at the same time raising capacity to 41K.

I’m sure McCabe mentioned that he intended to do both at the same time because it’s financially cheaper.

Another issue is do we expand now or wait until we’re established in the PL. These options can only be decided by the new owners and what their ultimate ambitions are.

Note: Of course there a 4th option where we move to another site and build a brand new stadium. However don’t think this would be a good idea. There’s plenty of land around Bramall Lane and it’s in a prime city centre area surrounded by dozens of pubs and memories. We lose too much and gain too little if we move away. If both stands are done then a 41,000 capacity (making Bramall Lane the largest ground in Yorkshire) will be enough for the foreseeable future.

A good analysis! The longer doing nothing goes on, the more expensive and complicated it’ll become. Of course there’s a balance there with being able to afford it.

The South stand option really is the no brainer (funding it aside). The extra tier also means if we are ever struggling with attendances, it can just be closed and we remove the ongoing match days costs/look of an empty stadium that some worry about.

I’m sure there could be a short term (5 year) fix for the Kop to at least build some new toilet blocks/create a covered canopy either side near the turnstile areas that wouldn’t be stupidly expensive. You then say if we are in x position in 5 years we rebuild the kop out towards Shoreham Street, like the McCabe plans and have a proper indoor concourse within this at the back.

 

[SUFC Guy]

This is so bang on, and the people who say we don’t need a bigger ground have no compression of how business or business expansion and development works, and they’re the ones primarily stick in this small town Sheffield mentality, which will has has continually held us back.

Expand the ground and decrease match day tickets and ST prices = increased attendances and increased revenue coming in from multiple income streams! Simples!

 

[drblade]

Note: Of course there a 4th option where we move to another site and build a brand new stadium. However don’t think this would be a good idea. There’s plenty of land around Bramall Lane and it’s in a prime city centre area surrounded by dozens of pubs and memories. We lose too much and gain too little if we move away. If both stands are done then a 41,000 capacity (making Bramall Lane the largest ground in Yorkshire) will be enough for the foreseeable future.

This fills me with dread. Hope this never happens. BDTBL is the one place on this planet that I've consistently returned to over the past 45 years.

Given it's place in football history, it should be a listed and protected site.

UTB

 

[dexter101]

I have just got back from a night at reebok stadium Hotel. I think the bit that would help the club most is making it a genuine venue for day to day use. Meetings, conferences etc. People are regularly at the ground and it's bringing in consistent income. Not really sure what we currently have and what the facilities are like but that wouldn't cost a fortune and helps with income and getting more people into the club.

P.s. I know its not called reebok anymore, I can't remember it's new name

 

[Tom Bott]

Expand the ground and decrease match day tickets and ST prices = increased attendances and increased revenue coming in from multiple income streams! Simples!

Great plan for insolvency.

Increase the overheads, with capital spending on the ground, plus the interest on the money borrowed.
Has anyone noticed how high interest rates are currently ?

Then decrease the income from ticket revenue.

Even clubs like Florist and Weeds with waiting lists for season tickets haven't adopted this strategy.
Must be small town thinking in Nottingham and Leeds.

 

[alcoblade]

I like your optimism. But what makes you think we would fill it in prem. That same prem we have just been in and not filled it for 90% if not more of the entire season ? So enlighten me where are other 6/7/8k blades coming from?? NOW build a team good enough to actually stay in the prem and you can then start thinking about extending the stadium. You say I’m backward thinking then say something that is totally the backward way of doing it. lol

Though the ground was often not at capacity, the number of empty seats situated together (available for families / friends etc) was extremely limited. This definitely stifles growth in support.

You could also boost away followings by a further 3,000 or so.

I'm not convinced the financial justification is there though, even accepting the above.

 

[Bladesman]

I have just got back from a night at reebok stadium Hotel. I think the bit that would help the club most is making it a genuine venue for day to day use. Meetings, conferences etc. People are regularly at the ground and it's bringing in consistent income. Not really sure what we currently have and what the facilities are like but that wouldn't cost a fortune and helps with income and getting more people into the club.

P.s. I know its not called reebok anymore, I can't remember it's new name

Toughsheet Community Stadium

 

[SUFC Guy]

Great plan for insolvency.

Increase the overheads, with capital spending on the ground, plus the interest on the money borrowed.
Has anyone noticed how high interest rates are currently ?

Then decrease the income from ticket revenue.

Even clubs like Florist and Weeds with waiting lists for season tickets haven't adopted this strategy.
Must be small town thinking in Nottingham and Leeds.

Obviously not reducing season tickets by hundreds of pounds

 

[Sean Thornton]

Obviously not reducing season tickets by hundreds of pounds

Without PL money and PP’s we’ve historically been a loss making club, supported financially by owner input. Very large financial input over and above player and day to day requirements would be the only way to finance major stadium development. Any new owners would be looking at the possibility of hugely increased gates - give all BL to away fans only really works in the PL and the movement is to lower prices - such as a sizeable ST waiting list which we don’t have and won’t without a decent stay in the PL.

 

[LBA_Blade]

I have just got back from a night at reebok stadium Hotel. I think the bit that would help the club most is making it a genuine venue for day to day use. Meetings, conferences etc. People are regularly at the ground and it's bringing in consistent income. Not really sure what we currently have and what the facilities are like but that wouldn't cost a fortune and helps with income and getting more people into the club.

P.s. I know its not called reebok anymore, I can't remember it's new name

To be fair that's one of the better ideas anyone has had. We have the hotel, already have hospitality boxes and rooms that could be converted along with plenty of off street parking. Even if we wanted to create a dedicated "business centre" there is space for that too.

 

[PeterNdlovu081]

We need a larger stadium to increase revenue, we would fill 38-40k in the prem

No we wouldn't.

For that to happen we'd have to be finishing in the top six of the Premier League every season consistently.

Pie in the sky.

 

[Sheffsteel]

The South stand option really is the no brainer (funding it aside). The extra tier also means if we are ever struggling with attendances, it can just be closed and we remove the ongoing match days costs/look of an empty stadium that some worry about.

I’m sure there could be a short term (5 year) fix for the Kop to at least build some new toilet blocks/create a covered canopy either side near the turnstile areas that wouldn’t be stupidly expensive. You then say if we are in x position in 5 years we rebuild the kop out towards Shoreham Street, like the McCabe plans and have a proper indoor concourse within this at the back.

Agree that's probably the most logical solution.

Start with the South stand first.....the motivation for this isn't so much to increase capacity.
It's to give the VIP people (the owners and their friends) coming to the Lane top class/ posh facilities, bringing Sheffield into the modern world, massively improving our reputation. We can have a large state of the art media room, top class catering facilities, much larger and much more modern changing rooms for the players, top class executive boxes and a fancy modern directors box. Visitors with influence will be leaving our ground very impressed, really enjoying the experience, feeding back to other around the country.

An increase of 5,000 seats would also be a nice bonus/ addition and as you say it would be quite similar to the Cardiff City stadium
where the upper tier can be closed down unless required. I remember Leeds United used to keep their upper tier closed too when they were in league 1.
Also it wouldn't look bad on TV because the cameras would never be directly showing the empty upper tier.

We can even experiment giving 6K seats to away fans, the whole Bramall Lane stand
and have home fans using the spare 5000 seats in the upper South stand.
So when playing Sheff Wed in any league we're pretty much gauranteed a 36K attendance.

Also agree.....just putting a temporary shelter in the concourse areas at the back of the Kop would be a much needed improvement.

Will be really interesting to hear the views of the new owners.
Suspect they'll talk with big ideas (talk is cheap) but not give any time frame (meaning they want to wait a few years and review it).
When you wait and wait.....these things never seem to get done.

 

[Houston_Blade]

Another backward looking fan, you can’t grow if you don’t have room to, to expand, simple business principles. We need a larger stadium to increase revenue, we would fill 38-40k in the prem, we would give the whole of the Bramall Lane end to away supporters for a start so that would mean home supporters filling the other 3 sides.

I’d say ‘simplistic’ rather than ‘simple’.

Assuming we only have limited resources available to either buy seats or buy footballers, I know where I’d invest. The footballers will pay for the seats if we get it right and then allow us to fill them. Empty seats won’t pay for footballers.

 

[Sean Thornton]

No we wouldn't.

For that to happen we'd have to be finishing in the top six of the Premier League every season consistently.

Pie in the sky.

None of the suggestions for stadium development actually consider how we will pay for it. Meandering thoughts about a state of the art stadium as things stand is pure fantasy. Okay if that’s how you want to spend your time but pretty useless for information purposes.

 

[Sheffsteel]

None of the suggestions for stadium development actually consider how we will pay for it. Meandering thoughts about a state of the art stadium as things stand is pure fantasy. Okay if that’s how you want to spend your time but pretty useless for information purposes.

Agree but I suppose if we're likely to get new owners then anything is possible.
I've already said I expect any new owners to start their campaign by making ambitious noises about many things about our club including their plan/ hope for ground improvements but wouldn't be surprised if it remains as an intention for many many years, with little action being done.

 

[SRA76]

No we wouldn't.

For that to happen we'd have to be finishing in the top six of the Premier League every season consistently.

Pie in the sky.

I seriously haven’t got a clue where some people think another 7-8k will suddenly come from just like that. Building support takes years when your in a 2 club city because your literally fighting the other half for the younger generation which is not easy because it’s usually in bedded in family blood if your going to be Red or blue. So that takes years. But we are actually winning in getting kids over from the dark side for a change and that’s becuse of the recent premier league stints. However untill we get there consistently we won’t ever have the support to fill a 40k seater week in week out. 1. Build a competent premiership team 2. Get more kids following us and parents bringing em 3. Extend stadium. Simple really

 

[SRA76]

I’d say ‘simplistic’ rather than ‘simple’.

Assuming we only have limited resources available to either buy seats or buy footballers, I know where I’d invest. The footballers will pay for the seats if we get it right and then allow us to fill them. Empty seats won’t pay for footballers.

Thank fuck . I do sometimes wonder if people are a bit delusional on this site

 

[Tom Bott]

if we're likely to get new owners then anything is possible.

Spending (investing) hundreds of millions on the club, like Chansiri has done at S6 ?

 

[S64 Blade]

Agree that's probably the most logical solution.

Start with the South stand first.....the motivation for this isn't so much to increase capacity.
It's to give the VIP people (the owners and their friends) coming to the Lane top class/ posh facilities, bringing Sheffield into the modern world, massively improving our reputation. We can have a large state of the art media room, top class catering facilities, much larger and much more modern changing rooms for the players, top class executive boxes and a fancy modern directors box. Visitors with influence will be leaving our ground very impressed, really enjoying the experience, feeding back to other around the country.

An increase of 5,000 seats would also be a nice bonus/ addition and as you say it would be quite similar to the Cardiff City stadium
where the upper tier can be closed down unless required. I remember Leeds United used to keep their upper tier closed too when they were in league 1.
Also it wouldn't look bad on TV because the cameras would never be directly showing the empty upper tier.

We can even experiment giving 6K seats to away fans, the whole Bramall Lane stand
and have home fans using the spare 5000 seats in the upper South stand.
So when playing Sheff Wed in any league we're pretty much gauranteed a 36K attendance.

Also agree.....just putting a temporary shelter in the concourse areas at the back of the Kop would be a much needed improvement.

Will be really interesting to hear the views of the new owners.
Suspect they'll talk with big ideas (talk is cheap) but not give any time frame (meaning they want to wait a few years and review it).
When you wait and wait.....these things never seem to get done.

Not sure I am overly keen on giving away fans 6k in all honesty. That only then gives a net increase of 2k to homes fans. Nobody outside the odd poor supported club gives that many.

 

[Houston_Blade]

Agree but I suppose if we're likely to get new owners then anything is possible.
I've already said I expect any new owners to start their campaign by making ambitious noises about many things about our club including their plan/ hope for ground improvements but wouldn't be surprised if it remains as an intention for many many years, with little action being done.

If it’s investors with a 5-10 year return in mind then I can’t see them justifying spending £m’s on some new seats with a long payback period.

They’ll want quick wins.

If they’re planning on being here long term then maybe they’ll invest in the infrastructure.

 

[Houston_Blade]

Not sure I am overly keen on giving away fans 6k in all honesty. That only then gives a net increase of 2k to homes fans. Nobody outside the odd poor supported club gives that many.

We’ll become another Preston or Blackburn!

Can’t sell out so give away fans 7k seats and let them make a lot of noise.

 

[S64 Blade]

I seriously haven’t got a clue where some people think another 7-8k will suddenly come from just like that. Building support takes years when your in a 2 club city because your literally fighting the other half for the younger generation which is not easy because it’s usually in bedded in family blood if your going to be Red or blue. So that takes years. But we are actually winning in getting kids over from the dark side for a change and that’s becuse of the recent premier league stints. However untill we get there consistently we won’t ever have the support to fill a 40k seater week in week out. 1. Build a competent premiership team 2. Get more kids following us and parents bringing em 3. Extend stadium. Simple really

Our gates have jumped 7-8k overnight before, over the course of a season. We are consistently getting high 20k now, why can't we increase the fan base by a lower % again, over a short period?

Irrespective of that, I don't think anyone is suggesting adding that much to the capacity in one go. 5k or so seems to be a better first step.