Stadium and facilities redevelopment post KMC

[Yogi]

We could go east and take some out of Lincolnshire. They probably end up at Boro or Norwich, and Norwich have been getting some good players in.

Leeds only got their cat 1 status this July, so if we hurry up we can minimise their advantage.

To back up Kanye’s point I seem to remember Norwich picking up Lewis and Aaron’s from Bristol I think cantwell is the only one of their good young players who is one their own ie a Norfolk boy

 

[CarlMcBlade]

I think we all want these improvements but will have to be a little patient. at least we now know its on the radar. They wont be able to do all the changes all at once.

I think these changes are a stage 1. If we stay in the league for another 1/2 seasons then i recon they will give the lane the full prem make-over as part of a stage 2. I think stand extensions etc will be considered probably after 5 seasons in the top flight as a stage 3. Because money is tight it is being focused on the new training facilities and player recruitment while we can establish ourselves.

Think development of the Kop will be the first down line.....The Prince has only mentioned improvements to the Kop thus far.

 

[CarlMcBlade]

Said it before a million times and I'll say it again, there's no need for Bramall Lane to be any bigger than it currently is.

A 32,000 capacity is about right for a club of our stature.

The rebuilding or extending of any stand is just pie in the sky unless the club significantly moves forward.

Let's talk about a new Kop in about 10 years if we're still in the Premier League and are playing European football.

I don’t think we necessarily need a bigger stadium but I do think we need better one. The Kop stand was out of date when it was put up 30 years ago and as much as we all love the lane. It has very quickly started to look quite antiquated in comparison to the company we are now keeping.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Leeds have a Cat1 academy.

I have a Cat 1 car alarm

 

[Blade58]

I have a Cat 1 car alarm

I have 1 alarming Cat

 

[Blade58]

Anyone see Calendar tonight? Showed lads training. I didn’t recognise where that was and that building in the background?

Anyone clarify?

 

[Stevo71]

I don’t think we necessarily need a bigger stadium but I do think we need better one. The Kop stand was out of date when it was put up 30 years ago and as much as we all love the lane. It has very quickly started to look quite antiquated in comparison to the company we are now keeping.

Of course we need a bigger stadium! It's called growing our portfolio/ moving forward. The trouble with Sheffield United is we've had so many dodgy owners in the past Reg, Samantha Hashimi, Macdonald, dare i say it .... McCabe, we don't know a good one if it slapped us in the face. For once it looks like we're in very good hands (only time will tell) but i've been more impressed with the Prince etc than i ever have with our previous owners ...... Upgrading Shirecliffe & eyes on a new state of the art training facility, plans to expand the lane unlike uncle scrooge filling us with empty promises.

 

[CarlMcBlade]

Of course we need a bigger stadium! It's called growing our portfolio/ moving forward. The trouble with Sheffield United is we've had so many dodgy owners in the past Reg, Samantha Hashimi, Macdonald, dare i say it .... McCabe, we don't know a good one if it slapped us in the face. For once it looks like we're in very good hands (only time will tell) but i've been more impressed with the Prince etc than i ever have with our previous owners ...... Upgrading Shirecliffe & eyes on a new state of the art training facility, plans to expand the lane unlike uncle scrooge filling us with empty promises.

Yes of course I know that if you’re going improve the quality of the stadium you might as well improve the capacity too. But I really don’t like the plans for the Kop. Tacking an extension onto the existing spoil heap isn’t “going forward” in my eyes.

 

[Kanye]

Yes of course I know that if you’re going improve the quality of the stadium you might as well improve the capacity too. But I really don’t like the plans for the Kop. Tacking an extension onto the existing spoil heap isn’t “going forward” in my eyes.

What is "going forward" in your eyes then?

 

[metalblade]

Until the biggest Blade ever sells those two bits of land nothing will be done to the kop. Ideally it wants a new build 20 yards further back towards Shoreham st with proper corners for fans not offices. Makes more sense to extend the south stand first and get more corporate boxes into the stadium as well as more fans.

 

[YES Blade]

What is "going forward" in your eyes then?

There is so much wasted space under the Kop with McCabe’s extension plan. It could be used for bars, food outlets and even a fan park which could be opened hours before kickoff increasing match day revenues. The viewing angle and leg room on the Kop isn’t up to current standards so that should be improved.

I know some will say by improving the leg room and viewing angles, it will reduce capacity but to me a football stadium isn’t about cramming in as many people as possible, if we’re expected to pay £100s in season tickets we should have comparable facilities to what other clubs provide. Also with safe standing probably not too far away, if the whole Kop became standing we probably wouldn’t lose capacity.

Keeping any part of the existing Kop would be the usual short sighted cheap option, which has been the Sheffield United way for decades.

 

[Harry's Game]

Aren’t they supposed to be worried about toxic waste dumped in the Kop mound back in the early 20th Century that would be very expensive to clear away? I’m sure McCabe said that once when Asked about building a new Kop stand.

 

[CaptainMorgans]

There is so much wasted space under the Kop with McCabe’s extension plan. It could be used for bars, food outlets and even a fan park which could be opened hours before kickoff increasing match day revenues. The viewing angle and leg room on the Kop isn’t up to current standards so that should be improved.

I know some will say by improving the leg room and viewing angles, it will reduce capacity but to me a football stadium isn’t about cramming in as many people as possible, if we’re expected to pay £100s in season tickets we should have comparable facilities to what other clubs provide. Also with safe standing probably not too far away, if the whole Kop became standing we probably wouldn’t lose capacity.

Keeping any part of the existing Kop would be the usual short sighted cheap option, which has been the Sheffield United way for decades.

Completely agree. I know we're not Tottenham, but I went to their new stadium when we played them last year and it's absolutely incredible what they've done there. It's a place you can go to for an hour or two before kick off and even an hour or two after. They had bars, bookies, lots of different food outlets, entertainment (there was a DJ after the game playing tunes in the concourse), screens showing football wherever you looked... incredible.

We could easily replicate this (in our own way) in smaller form by utilising all of the space we have at the back of the Kop & South Stands.

Whatever we do next with the stadium, I hope it's not short-term isn't. That's what's got us to where we are now...
The Kop is dreadful and so is that Pukka Pie corner.
As others have said, capacity isn't the major issue with these stands but they need to be flattened and rebuilt with a steeper rake.

The additional capacity can be added through a second tier on the South, with better corporate facilities throughout. We will have to borrow money to do it & it's dependent on us establishing ourselves at PL level over the next couple of years, but we should do it.

A ground at 40k capacity, but much greater facilities is what I hope we arrive to. I'm confident that at that capacity we would have the place 90% full for most games of the season, with the additional 10% arriving for the big games...

 

[Kanye]

There is so much wasted space under the Kop with McCabe’s extension plan. It could be used for bars, food outlets and even a fan park which could be opened hours before kickoff increasing match day revenues. The viewing angle and leg room on the Kop isn’t up to current standards so that should be improved.

I know some will say by improving the leg room and viewing angles, it will reduce capacity but to me a football stadium isn’t about cramming in as many people as possible, if we’re expected to pay £100s in season tickets we should have comparable facilities to what other clubs provide. Also with safe standing probably not too far away, if the whole Kop became standing we probably wouldn’t lose capacity.

A club will only sanction stadium developments if they're cost effective; the work has to increase revenues and essentially be able to pay itself off in a reasonable amount of time.
The ideas you suggest are exciting, especially for someone like me who sits on the kop, however I can't imagine they'd be able to justify the cost: it's sounds incredibly expensive for a very modest increase in revenue.

In addition, you have the issue of funding. Imagine (hypothetically) that rebuilding the kop would cost £50m - that's £50m that could otherwise be spent on the team, the training ground or the academy.

If United do have plans to improve the stadium, they would likely be aimed at improving and expanding the corporate facilities, rather than rebuilding the kop.

I can't imagine any such work happening anytime soon.

 

[Kanye]

Completely agree. I know we're not Tottenham, but I went to their new stadium when we played them last year and it's absolutely incredible what they've done there. It's a place you can go to for an hour or two before kick off and even an hour or two after. They had bars, bookies, lots of different food outlets, entertainment (there was a DJ after the game playing tunes in the concourse), screens showing football wherever you looked... incredible.

We could easily replicate this (in our own way) in smaller form by utilising all of the space we have at the back of the Kop & South Stands.

Whatever we do next with the stadium, I hope it's not short-term isn't. That's what's got us to where we are now...
The Kop is dreadful and so is that Pukka Pie corner.
As others have said, capacity isn't the major issue with these stands but they need to be flattened and rebuilt with a steeper rake.

The additional capacity can be added through a second tier on the South, with better corporate facilities throughout. We will have to borrow money to do it & it's dependent on us establishing ourselves at PL level over the next couple of years, but we should do it.

A ground at 40k capacity, but much greater facilities is what I hope we arrive to. I'm confident that at that capacity we would have the place 90% full for most games of the season, with the additional 10% arriving for the big games...

That sounds like a lot of work and money for an extra 8000 seats.

 

[CaptainMorgans]

That sounds like a lot of work and money for an extra 8000 seats.

The 8k seats wouldn't bring in huge revenue streams, granted (although not insignificant).

But the bars, food outlets & shops would all provide huge income streams. If done right.

After the Spurs game, myself and my mates stayed in the concourse drinking pints and eating food whilst watching the next game on one of the hundreds of TVs.

The additional corporate boxes would bring in a lot of additional income and then there's the intangibles... what could improving the whole look and feel of the club do for future prospects. Attracting investment, new signings, new fans... completely burying our neighbours into abyss.

 

[YES Blade]

A club will only sanction stadium developments if they're cost effective; the work has to increase revenues and essentially be able to pay itself off in a reasonable amount of time.
The ideas you suggest are exciting, especially for someone like me who sits on the kop, however I can't imagine they'd be able to justify the cost: it's sounds incredibly expensive for a very modest increase in revenue.

In addition, you have the issue of funding. Imagine (hypothetically) that rebuilding the kop would cost £50m - that's £50m that could otherwise be spent on the team, the training ground or the academy.

If United do have plans to improve the stadium, they would likely be aimed at improving and expanding the corporate facilities, rather than rebuilding the kop.

I can't imagine any such work happening anytime soon.

I understand what you are saying, there is no point in building a vanity project that doesn’t increase revenue, but clearly just by looking at the stadium developments such as Spurs or even the new stadiums in the USA that it can be done and with a reasonable return on investment.

My view is we need to forget the current plans, we need a plan for the whole of Bramall Lane which includes all 4 stands.

We currently don’t have corporate facilities on the Lane End, that’s revenue we’re missing out on. John Street is 24 years old now, that’ll be getting ready to be rebuilt sooner rather than later. That’s why I think the pitch needs moving towards Shoreham Street/Cherry Street to increase our options for development.

We could get to a point where we’ve got a modern 40k stadium with excellent facilities throughout, but if we constantly look at short term cheap options we’ll never get there.

 

[YES Blade]

The 8k seats wouldn't bring in huge revenue streams, granted (although not insignificant).

But the bars, food outlets & shops would all provide huge income streams. If done right.

After the Spurs game, myself and my mates stayed in the concourse drinking pints and eating food whilst watching the next game on one of the hundreds of TVs.

The additional corporate boxes would bring in a lot of additional income and then there's the intangibles... what could improving the whole look and feel of the club do for future prospects. Attracting investment, new signings, new fans... completely burying our neighbours into abyss.

To add to that, a stadium with great facilities would be attractive for other events such as music, the Ricoh Arena is always used so why not the Lane? We could easily get to a point where we’ve got one or two gigs every summer.

Also sport events, we could build it in a way where the stadium could be converted for NFL, if the UK gets a franchise what’s to say a couple of matches couldn’t be played at the Lane? World Cup matches? Euros? Boxing?

 

[Sheffsteel]

I understand what you are saying, there is no point in building a vanity project that doesn’t increase revenue, but clearly just by looking at the stadium developments such as Spurs or even the new stadiums in the USA that it can be done and with a reasonable return on investment.

My view is we need to forget the current plans, we need a plan for the whole of Bramall Lane which includes all 4 stands.

We currently don’t have corporate facilities on the Lane End, that’s revenue we’re missing out on. John Street is 24 years old now, that’ll be getting ready to be rebuilt sooner rather than later. That’s why I think the pitch needs moving towards Shoreham Street/Cherry Street to increase our options for development.

We could get to a point where we’ve got a modern 40k stadium with excellent facilities throughout, but if we constantly look at short term cheap options we’ll never get there.

Good post....it’s an interesting topic. You want to to be ambitious off the pitch...take risks and think big.
Idealistically I agree.....would love it to happen and I think somewhere around 40K should be the aim.

However when it comes to borrowing large sums of money you must also produce a very detailed business plan with return on investment projections
of the best case scenario and worse case scenario.

Imagine you are in front of the “Dragons Den“ panel...difficult questions will be asked like
”what will be your drop in income if the club is relegated and how do you intend to meet the repayments with such a reduced income”
”what is the quickest time you can repay the debt and what would be the longest time”
“How does covid19 effect your business plan and what happens if some form of social distancing becomes permanent“
”if you do a total rebuild of a stadium you do realise there will be additional costs due to lost income from reduced capacity..so what are the extra costs”
”how many 1000’s will be staying in the bars after the match and what kind of income will this derive”
”what is your evidence that suggests 1000’s would stay behind after the match...when normally fans leave early wanting to return home ASAP”
”what will the prices be in the bars and will fans continue to choose local pubs? What happens to local pubs if they lose customers match days”
”if you plan for a 40K capacity stadium where is the extra parking for 1000’s of extra cars on match day” etc etc

 

[HolmesfieldBlade]

It looks fucking mint!

 

[JJBlade]

Completely agree. I know we're not Tottenham, but I went to their new stadium when we played them last year and it's absolutely incredible what they've done there. It's a place you can go to for an hour or two before kick off and even an hour or two after. They had bars, bookies, lots of different food outlets, entertainment (there was a DJ after the game playing tunes in the concourse), screens showing football wherever you looked... incredible.

We could easily replicate this (in our own way) in smaller form by utilising all of the space we have at the back of the Kop & South Stands.

Whatever we do next with the stadium, I hope it's not short-term isn't. That's what's got us to where we are now...
The Kop is dreadful and so is that Pukka Pie corner.
As others have said, capacity isn't the major issue with these stands but they need to be flattened and rebuilt with a steeper rake.

The additional capacity can be added through a second tier on the South, with better corporate facilities throughout. We will have to borrow money to do it & it's dependent on us establishing ourselves at PL level over the next couple of years, but we should do it.

A ground at 40k capacity, but much greater facilities is what I hope we arrive to. I'm confident that at that capacity we would have the place 90% full for most games of the season, with the additional 10% arriving for the big games...

Many will be surprised at just how many people there are in this region that would come to watch United in the Premier League

It's not that long ago when Sunderland and Newcastle would have seen 15,000 as a good attendance, and in many cases attendances dropped to 8,000 - 10,000

Clubs like Leicester have doubled their traditional average attendance, even a relatively good Leicester team wouldn't get any more than 15,000 - 20,000

Bristol City have probably quadrupled their traditional average

Brighton have increased their capacity 3 times over what they would traditionally expect at the Goldstone Ground, and increased it six times over what they were getting a short time ago at the Withdean.

Southampton, 15,000 at The Dell,
Did they build a new stadium with a 15,000 capacity because occasionally one or two seats were left unsold?
No they built a 32,000 seater stadium without any history of getting those attendances.

United with higher traditional numbers than these clubs should be aiming higher

If you build it, they will come,
Never a truer statement said.

42,000 - 44 000 and there should not be a problem filling it provided that everybody can actually see what's going on on the pitch, prices are reasonable and a person can buy two or three tickets for his family or friends

 

[metalblade]

I understand what you are saying, there is no point in building a vanity project that doesn’t increase revenue, but clearly just by looking at the stadium developments such as Spurs or even the new stadiums in the USA that it can be done and with a reasonable return on investment.

My view is we need to forget the current plans, we need a plan for the whole of Bramall Lane which includes all 4 stands.

We currently don’t have corporate facilities on the Lane End, that’s revenue we’re missing out on. John Street is 24 years old now, that’ll be getting ready to be rebuilt sooner rather than later. That’s why I think the pitch needs moving towards Shoreham Street/Cherry Street to increase our options for development.

We could get to a point where we’ve got a modern 40k stadium with excellent facilities throughout, but if we constantly look at short term cheap options we’ll never get there.

Talking of the John St side of the ground it is a good way away from the pitch due to us reducing the width of the pitch to match up with most other Premier League clubs give or take a few yards. That could be rebuilt closer to the playing surface and made higher using the same rake but the pitch should be moved towards Shoreham St to allow room to make the Lane end bigger and better some time in the future.

 

[Bladesman]

Aren’t they supposed to be worried about toxic waste dumped in the Kop mound back in the early 20th Century that would be very expensive to clear away? I’m sure McCabe said that once when Asked about building a new Kop stand.

Toxic waste? I thought all that got dumped over in some shithole in S6.

Our ground is probably sitting on a pile of old broken fax machines.

 

[Maidenhead]

Good post....it’s an interesting topic. You want to to be ambitious off the pitch...take risks and think big.
Idealistically I agree.....would love it to happen and I think somewhere around 40K should be the aim.

However when it comes to borrowing large sums of money you must also produce a very detailed business plan with return on investment projections
of the best case scenario and worse case scenario.

Imagine you are in front of the “Dragons Den“ panel...difficult questions will be asked like
”what will be your drop in income if the club is relegated and how do you intend to meet the repayments with such a reduced income”
”what is the quickest time you can repay the debt and what would be the longest time”
“How does covid19 effect your business plan and what happens if some form of social distancing becomes permanent“
”if you do a total rebuild of a stadium you do realise there will be additional costs due to lost income from reduced capacity..so what are the extra costs”
”how many 1000’s will be staying in the bars after the match and what kind of income will this derive”
”what is your evidence that suggests 1000’s would stay behind after the match...when normally fans leave early wanting to return home ASAP”
”what will the prices be in the bars and will fans continue to choose local pubs? What happens to local pubs if they lose customers match days”
”if you plan for a 40K capacity stadium where is the extra parking for 1000’s of extra cars on match day” etc etc

Exactly this.

I once looked at a lending proposition for a football club looking to build a new ground and the owner was adamant that there would be no personal guarantees given.

It was a very short look because I thought if he won't take the risk why on earth should the bank take it.

Would be even more difficult for a company with a Saudi owner who by his own admission is not minted.

Far too many risk factors to borrow from primary lenders and will be much too expensive to borrow from the secondary market so the question is do we want to invest in the team or the facilities?

 

[metalblade]

It's those unexploded WW2 bombs you have to worry about

 

[MalvernBlade]

Extend over the road at the lane end. You could come up with any number of plans that ultimately have to go through Sheffield city council planning office so wouldn't hold your breath on getting anything other than what we've got but then needs rebuilding every 24yr

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

It's those unexploded WW2 bombs you have to worry about

Saves demolition costs and would possibly get you an insurance pay out too.
All the grand plans are well and good but it’ll take a few years to get the plans through planning and then you’re keeping fans away again. If they start the South Stand as soon as they can and then plan further expansions based on the seats created then it would make sense, but it would mean BL happening before the Kop.

 

[Kanye]

The 8k seats wouldn't bring in huge revenue streams, granted (although not insignificant).

But the bars, food outlets & shops would all provide huge income streams. If done right.

After the Spurs game, myself and my mates stayed in the concourse drinking pints and eating food whilst watching the next game on one of the hundreds of TVs.

The additional corporate boxes would bring in a lot of additional income and then there's the intangibles... what could improving the whole look and feel of the club do for future prospects. Attracting investment, new signings, new fans... completely burying our neighbours into abyss.

I understand what you are saying, there is no point in building a vanity project that doesn’t increase revenue, but clearly just by looking at the stadium developments such as Spurs or even the new stadiums in the USA that it can be done and with a reasonable return on investment.

My view is we need to forget the current plans, we need a plan for the whole of Bramall Lane which includes all 4 stands.

We currently don’t have corporate facilities on the Lane End, that’s revenue we’re missing out on. John Street is 24 years old now, that’ll be getting ready to be rebuilt sooner rather than later. That’s why I think the pitch needs moving towards Shoreham Street/Cherry Street to increase our options for development.

We could get to a point where we’ve got a modern 40k stadium with excellent facilities throughout, but if we constantly look at short term cheap options we’ll never get there.

You're both referring to Spurs' stadium, which is obviously a great ground, but there's a lot of reasons why it works for them, but wouldn't for us.

Firstly, cost: £1bn - I know neither of you are suggesting we build anything on that scale, but either way, the cost would be enormous. If we built something half the size, for half the price, it would still be way beyond us, financially.

Secondly, necessity: Spurs needed a new stadium to expand capacity: they'd consistently filled there stadium for a number of years. Their support base rivalled their competitors but their stadium didn't.

Finally, location. Being in London, there are more opportunities than in Sheffield, whether than be commercial, hosting a wider variety of events or even tourism - all these considerations justify the cost for them, but wouldn't apply to someone like us.

And even with all that being said, there are other things to consider. It's well documented that Tottenham have had to operate shrewdly in the transfer market in order to facilitate the move. With them being only a whisker away from winning the champions league, and not knowing when another chance like that will arrive - it begs the question if it's worth it? A larger transfer budget may have been enough push on and win trophies. I imagine some Spurs fans would have taken a champions league over quick-pour pints or a retractable pitch.

 

[YES Blade]

Good post....it’s an interesting topic. You want to to be ambitious off the pitch...take risks and think big.
Idealistically I agree.....would love it to happen and I think somewhere around 40K should be the aim.

However when it comes to borrowing large sums of money you must also produce a very detailed business plan with return on investment projections
of the best case scenario and worse case scenario.

Imagine you are in front of the “Dragons Den“ panel...difficult questions will be asked like
”what will be your drop in income if the club is relegated and how do you intend to meet the repayments with such a reduced income”
”what is the quickest time you can repay the debt and what would be the longest time”
“How does covid19 effect your business plan and what happens if some form of social distancing becomes permanent“
”if you do a total rebuild of a stadium you do realise there will be additional costs due to lost income from reduced capacity..so what are the extra costs”
”how many 1000’s will be staying in the bars after the match and what kind of income will this derive”
”what is your evidence that suggests 1000’s would stay behind after the match...when normally fans leave early wanting to return home ASAP”
”what will the prices be in the bars and will fans continue to choose local pubs? What happens to local pubs if they lose customers match days”
”if you plan for a 40K capacity stadium where is the extra parking for 1000’s of extra cars on match day” etc etc

I agree with all of that and it’s a process I hope the club will go through. We shouldn’t just take the easy option and build the current plans. I hope we’ll have a long term vision of what is best for the club.

 

[bromtom]

I do see the Prince as someone who is sensible, but not averse to a bit of a vanity project.

If he thinks we can do it without putting ourselves at risk, I'd back him to actually do something and do it properly over McCabe's 'pay a company to make a render, do nothing' policy.

Just needs to keep bringing in investment.