Sky has ruined football...Utter bollocks

[BushBlade]

I'm not saying absolutely nothing can be learnt, but I'm sceptical about replicating the fan involvement thing. The culture is just too different, the fans think differently, the general perception of football is different. I can imagine an "elite" group of fans becoming as bad as the worst board, or crippling battles between board and fan-owners. I also think the situation is different in Germany regarding the (deliberate) one city, one club set up, which reduces the competition factor, if there were as many "big clubs" in Germany fighting for top league places, they might be a little more ruthless.
Maybe I'm wrong and I should have more faith, but I don't see it.

People forget that Germany was completely restructured after the war, on modern, social democratic principles and the subsequent rebuilding process strengthened the principles of 'society' and the 'common good'.

 

[Hamburg Blade]

I've always maintained that football clubs are not businesses. The money should be distributed more evenly, there shouldn't be an overly financial reward for winning. For those who say it should adhere to a free market model and clubs are businesses, you have to remember that any sport is deliberately regulated to create a "fair fight", it's why Man Utd can't field 15 players just because they're richer or have won more. So if it is strictly regulated on the field, why shouldn't it be strictly regulated off the field to create a more equal competition?
Anyone who follows F1 knows that the sport is going through the exact same thing - ridiculously regulated car formula versus teams that are extremely unbalanced. It's nearly causing the collapse of that sport.
The problem with introducing it is the amount of regulation needed. It goes against our nature. But as we've already introduced wage caps, then why not follow it through and distribute money properly?
But back to the orignal point - it isn't Sky that's causing the problems. A huge injection of funds is not ruining the sport. The finger has to be pointed at the FA, FL, UEFA? FIFA? and some of the individual clubs and their owners.

 

[BushBlade]

No

I agree. Anyone who doesn't go to all games, home and away isn't a true supporter. Part timers like me should just shut the fuck up.

 

[Hamburg Blade]

People forget that Germany was completely restructured after the war, on modern, social democratic principles and the subsequent rebuilding process strengthened the principles of 'society' and the 'common good'.

Some of which is good, some of which is horrible. Your own political viewpoint will also determine how happy you are under the system. With regards to football, the league was also originally set up to spread the big clubs across the country. So one club per city, giving the clubs a large fan base and commercial opportunites. Promotion and relegation over the years has unbalanced it a little (most notably adding Bayern Munich), but it's stayed surprisingly stubborn. Below the Bundesliga the drop off in quality is pretty steep.

 

[BushBlade]

Some of which is good, some of which is horrible. Your own political viewpoint will also determine how happy you are under the system. With regards to football, the league was also originally set up to spread the big clubs across the country. So one club per city, giving the clubs a large fan base and commercial opportunites. Promotion and relegation over the years has unbalanced it a little (most notably adding Bayern Munich), but it's stayed surprisingly stubborn. Below the Bundesliga the drop off in quality is pretty steep.

Yes, BT have showed a couple of 2nd tier games.

My point was that the English league system just grew organically with little thought to structure or commercialism. It wasn't organised in the way that the Bundesliga was.

One has to understand that, and the social context it's in, to appreciate why we can't emulate the Bundesliga in this country.

 

[Bladesway]

How many of the big clubs are owned by English owners? Why would the Glazers, Sheik Mansour, Abramovich give a shit about the English national side?

I don't give a shit. If I were in charge and not just their puppet like Scudamore they would be told this is the game, this is where the revenue is going, suck it up boys.

 

[Bladesway]

I agree. Anyone who doesn't go to all games, home and away isn't a true supporter. Part timers like me should just shut the fuck up.

Assuming you are as old as your profile says you are, do you really think that is a constructive addition to what has thus far been a good debate?

 

[BushBlade]

I don't give a shit. If I were in charge and not just their puppet like Scudamore they would be told this is the game, this is where the revenue is going, suck it up boys.

In charge of what? If you were in charge of the PL it's because the owners of the PL clubs put you in charge. As you've said yourself, turkeys don't vote for Christmas.

 

[BushBlade]

Assuming you are as old as your profile says you are, do you really think that is a constructive addition to what has thus far been a good debate?

As constructive as the post I responded to.

There's a very simple point I'm making; where does one draw the line in modern times? Who is a 'supporter'? Is it someone who goes every week? Is it someone who goes occasionally? Is it someone who subscribes to a football channel where some of that subscription goes to the club they follow?

Is someone who lives in Australia and subscribes to Blades Player less of a supporter than someone who lives in Gleadless, has a Blades sticker in his car but only goes to the match once a year?

 

[Esablade]

I like this thread. A lot of good discussion. CyprusBlade’s post made really interesting reading. I also think Bush’s points about the freedom of markets and wider economical and political issues are very important too. A lot of people say let’s copy the German format but whilst I’m no expert, it seems their laws regulating trade are quite different from ours. We cannot just flount our laws for the game of football. Do we need to consider whether there should be a change in the laws? I’m no economist and don’t consider myself qualified to weigh up the pros and cons.


The distribution of wealth (and TV money in particular) is certainly an issue as it only widens the gap between the haves and the have-nots. Further, championship clubs are spending more and more irresponsibly in a desperate bid to try to get a slice of the pie. The extension of parachute payments means that there are more clubs in the championship with more money to spend on trying to reclaim a seat at the golden table making even harder for others, in some cases prompting even more irresponsible expenditure which then puts the futures of the clubs in jeopardy. Meanwhile, in League 1, we’re seeing a bigger gulf open as instead of 3 or 4 big spenders at the championship, it becomes 12-15 of them that are now light-years ahead of league 1.


Also, the sheer volume of money thrown into the game has resulted in a scenario whereby footballers are able to command ridiculous salaries without even being near the top of their profession. It also means more are just in it for the money and not the love of the game.


The rich are getting richer, the poor are getting poorer. Player power is out of control. Even managers know when they sign a contract, it’s more than likely they will be leaving before the end of it with a payoff in hand as the mad scramble for the 20 golden seats at the table goes on. It’s also worth noting there are benefits of the changes. Football is, generally, more accessible if only on TV. It now reaches every corner of the world but is less about the regions the clubs purport to represent.


We all know the problems exist and most of us can have a fair stab at some of the reasons they exist. What we seem to struggle with is what to do about it?


Some say copy the German template but it is far from that simple. Do we wish to place restrictions on trade? To move away from the capitalist society we live in? As touched upon, by voting tory, it would seem not. Do we accept that professional football is no longer a game for the working classes and uproot and go and watch non-league? Hard to do given the loyalty many of us feel to our own club (something that is becoming diluted and less meaningful over time due to the transient and venal nature of representation).


People say the wealth should be distributed more evenly and that feels right but again, it is a step away from the free markets we operate in. The PL is the highly marketable commodity so there is an argument to say the gains rightfully belong to the PL fan.


The problem for most of us is that we are loyal supporters of a club and that’s our perception of how football should be. A club representing a town or region. It’s supporters being the lifeblood of the club that represents them. These days, football is merely show-business whereby entertainment is being sold to the world via their Sky packages and the fans who hold clubs dear are an afterthought. It’s a problem for us but we are in the minority. If we feel strongly enough about it, perhaps we form a breakaway club like the Manchester fans? FC United of Sheffield anybody?

..sounds great, apart form the fact the we don't really operate in 'free markets'...but thats one for the general board methinks...

 

[BushBlade]

..sounds great, apart form the fact the we don't really operate in 'free markets'...but thats one for the general board methinks...

I get your point ESA and don't disagree. I just used the term as shorthand for some of the ideas I've put forward in later posts as to why I think it's unlikely that we can emulate the 'German model'.
I certainly don't want to turn the thread into a political debate.

 

[Bladesway]

As constructive as the post I responded to.

There's a very simple point I'm making; where does one draw the line in modern times? Who is a 'supporter'? Is it someone who goes every week? Is it someone who goes occasionally? Is it someone who subscribes to a football channel where some of that subscription goes to the club they follow?

Is someone who lives in Australia and subscribes to Blades Player less of a supporter than someone who lives in Gleadless, has a Blades sticker in his car but only goes to the match once a year?

You can go on forever on that one but some bloke who lives in New York, has never seen the team but has every kit (full of course) isn't in my book a "proper" fan. Proper fans talk about the Play off semi against Forest, they talk about Bobby Davidson, Brian Deane scoring against the filth, they talk about Saunders bouncing the ball of the keepers arse from a throw in because they were there. It isn't exclusively that but for me you do have to have served some sort of punishment be it now or historical.

 

[BushBlade]

You can go on forever on that one but some bloke who lives in New York, has never seen the team but has every kit (full of course) isn't in my book a "proper" fan. Proper fans talk about the Play off semi against Forest, they talk about Bobby Davidson, Brian Deane scoring against the filth, they talk about Saunders bouncing the ball of the keepers arse from a throw in because they were there. It isn't exclusively that but for me you do have to have served some sort of punishment be it now or historical.

'Served some punishment'. Lol. I tend to feel the same but I do get a bit uncomfortable with the 'bigger Blade' thing at times.

I don't like the 'football is a religion' thing but to use that analogy, I suppose BDTBL is our 'church' and watching the RAWW is our communion.

 

[Bladesway]

'Served some punishment'. Lol. I tend to feel the same but I do get a but uncomfortable with the 'bigger Blade' thing at times.

I don't like the 'football is a religion' thing but to use that analogy, I suppose BDTBL is our 'church' and watching the RAWW is our communion.

I'd say as a Catholic boy its more our penance for being really bad in a previous life but you can have the rest

The bigger blade thing is bollocks but you do need to have at least sniffed a Wards fart on the Kop to qualify.

 

[JJ Sefton]

No compulsion and no real desire.

No, it was no cash.

 

[JJ Sefton]

Anyway, as a champion of capitalism and the individual, surely your dead against extra money going into the pockets of the 'workers' (players) at the expense of the 'customer' (supporters attending matches)?

If there is a highly skilled worker and lots of people are willing to pay lots of money for their services, why on earth should a believer in free market capitalism have any sort of a problem with that?

 

[JJ Sefton]

There are logistical reasons also for not attending matches which I understand. Transport is expensive in this country if you don't live in the same town as your club, and that's before we consider the price of tickets in English football.
Crewe on Saturday cost me upwards of £70 all things considered, and that's the 3rd division.
I once read an article in FourFourTwo magazine about fans who don't attend. They interviewed a Liverpool fan who watches all the games in the pub due to the reasons I mentioned above, he said that one day the die-hard fans will be doing what he does whilst the day-trippers and casual supporters will be in the stadium. I hate to say it but I think he has a point, and it'll be a sad day when that happens for me personally.
When I go to the match, the football isn't the only focal point (especially right now). It's about being part of something, being with your mates and those of a like-mind (at least in the sense of following the same team), in other words 'terrace culture' which too ofen gets dismissed as being hooliganistic, if that's a word. But it's not, it's a vital component of the game and I think it's being lost in modern times.
The passage of time doesn't necessarily signify progress.

Progress is a subjective terms here. What I'm saying is that its changed as it always has and always will. These blokes feel part of something when they watch Manchester United on the settee with their mates. They just feel part of something different to you.

William F. Buckley said that it was the job of the conservative to stand astride the tracks of history shouting "Stop!". That's really all that's on display here.

 

[BushBlade]

Progress is a subjective terms here. What I'm saying is that its changed as it always has and always will. These blokes feel part of something when they watch Manchester United on the settee with their mates. They just feel part of something different to you.

William F. Buckley said that it was the job of the conservative to stand astride the tracks of history shouting "Stop!". That's really all that's on display here.

Damn, by putting 'F' you anticipated the potential for jokes about shit Sunderland players and headed them off before I could start.

 

[Tyler Durden]

Progress is a subjective terms here. What I'm saying is that its changed as it always has and always will. These blokes feel part of something when they watch Manchester United on the settee with their mates. They just feel part of something different to you.

William F. Buckley said that it was the job of the conservative to stand astride the tracks of history shouting "Stop!". That's really all that's on display here.

It isn't that type of fan that I'm criticising though, it's no concern of mine how people choose to go about following their particular club.
What I am criticising however, is the disdainful way in which "traditional" supporters are treated in the modern game by the powers that be. As I was saying before, theres no need for anybody to be alienated, the game is big enough to accomodate supporters of all kinds, yet currently does not.

 

[HillmortonBlade]

You can go on forever on that one but some bloke who lives in New York, has never seen the team but has every kit (full of course) isn't in my book a "proper" fan. Proper fans talk about the Play off semi against Forest, they talk about Bobby Davidson, Brian Deane scoring against the filth, they talk about Saunders bouncing the ball of the keepers arse from a throw in because they were there. It isn't exclusively that but for me you do have to have served some sort of punishment be it now or historical.

I tend to agree... but then I wondered, does one have to go and watch ones national football team to be a true supporter? Or am I barking up the wrong tree?

Or is it that there is a difference between Fanatic and Supporter?

 

[BushBlade]

I tend to agree... but then I wondered, does one have to go and watch ones national football team to be a true supporter? Or am I barking up the wrong tree?

Or is it that there is a difference between Fanatic and Supporter?

That's a good point. I've taken my punishment with those useless twats as well. Fucking McLaren. I've almost given up with England, I can't deal with supporting two teams that consistently disappoint.

 

[blade too long]

the biggest change of all of course is football pandering to the really big clubs allowing 7 subs , so hypothetically they can change one 45 million players for another 38 m player with desire

this scenario that lets clubs have shadow squads in reserve who seat in Recaro seats for years on end that in the main are better than any league one down first team

in the past they had 11 players out to prove who was best now Chelsea loan out 25 plus players

the lower leagues therefore get not after the top 500 players as they used to , but those outside the top 1000 players in the pyramid
normally the english ones

 

[Bartleby]

That's a good point. I've taken my punishment with those useless twats as well. Fucking McLaren. I've almost given up with England, I can't deal with supporting two teams that consistently disappoint.

But at least England has won something of worth in the 50 years

 

[JJ Sefton]

It isn't that type of fan that I'm criticising though, it's no concern of mine how people choose to go about following their particular club.
What I am criticising however, is the disdainful way in which "traditional" supporters are treated in the modern game by the powers that be. As I was saying before, theres no need for anybody to be alienated, the game is big enough to accomodate supporters of all kinds, yet currently does not.

Who isn't it accommodating?

 

[JJ Sefton]

People forget that Germany was completely restructured after the war, on modern, social democratic principles and the subsequent rebuilding process strengthened the principles of 'society' and the 'common good'.

Unless you're Greek.

 

[Bladesway]

I tend to agree... but then I wondered, does one have to go and watch ones national football team to be a true supporter? Or am I barking up the wrong tree?

Or is it that there is a difference between Fanatic and Supporter?

Think you pay your dues with your club. Your country is your mistress

 

[HillmortonBlade]

Think you pay your dues with your club. Your country is your mistress

Club is everything to me, wish it wasn't!

 

[Bladesway]

Club is everything to me, wish it wasn't!

Me too but if England were in a world cup final I don't know anyone wouldn't watch.

 

[HillmortonBlade]

Me too but if England were in a world cup final I don't know anyone wouldn't watch.

I certainly would, and would be cheering them on... despite my international heart lying elsewhere.

However... I'd sooner watch the Blades in the FA Cup Final, if it was an either/or...

 

[judge]

I agree. Anyone who doesn't go to all games, home and away isn't a true supporter. Part timers like me should just shut the fuck up.

And me ,although i went before sky
So that makes me a proper fan