Safe Standing consultation

[metalblade]

That was the impression I got when it was mentioned at the last meeting. The capacity of the Kop would be vastly reduced due to the "safe" numbers allowed in these pens. United can actually fit more people on the Kop with seats than they would ever be allowed to with "safe standing" implications.

Obviously therefore, the costs are not only in the installation of these pens, but also a reduced ticket income from the capacity.

And yes, we know that Hillsborough shouldn't have a bearing on us. But when the SAG is part of Sheffield Council, they are always going to. Saying the sky is green doesn't make it so I'm afraid.

Threads merged by the way...

Not so, the capacity would be doubled with the style of seats/safe standing areas found in Germany, when the seat is upright another row is there to stand on allowing two people to take the place of one seated spectator. What would be an issue is the design of stadium exits as newer ones designed for a set number of seated spectators could not evacuate twice the number of standees. This would not be such a big issue for our kop as originally it was all standing, but other areas in the ground would need more or larger exits.

 

[Foxy]

Not so, the capacity would be doubled with the style of seats/safe standing areas found in Germany, when the seat is upright another row is there to stand on allowing two people to take the place of one seated spectator.

Except for, the local safety advisory board have to pass any plans - the current suggestions are based upon those shown at the safe standing "roadshow", rather than identical to those implemented in Germany. With those, as said, even if they decided to allow it to happen, the indication was that the capacity would be much reduced in order to pass their requirements and therefore have the ability to hold an event.

 

[metalblade]

Except for, the local safety advisory board have to pass any plans - the current suggestions are based upon those shown at the safe standing "roadshow", rather than identical to those implemented in Germany. With those, as said, even if they decided to allow it to happen, the indication was that the capacity would be much reduced in order to pass their requirements and therefore have the ability to hold an event.

Does anyone really think we will ever see standing at games in the near future ? It could be done quite easily as in Germany but I really doubt the clubs would want it as it would mean spending cash to put in place and for what when they can charge fans more to be seated. We know football today is all about money any supporter thinking standing will reduce admission prices can ................ well dream on, the clubs want to wring as much cash out of fans as possible safe standing will not happen.

 

[Dnblade]

The sooner it''s brought back the better..I can't see the argument against it now.
People stand at Rugby,lower league games,Rock concerts,Football matches in other countries,so why not English Football.
I don't know if it's still going ahead,but Bristol City were going to incorporate Safe Standing in a new stadium shared with the Rugby club..So you could've gone and watched Rugby and stood,then turned up the next week to watch Football and would have had to sit down..???..doesn't make sense.
If it was brought back,it would be great to see the Kop return to standing,and generating more noise and atmosphere and there's still enough seats in the ground for people who want to sit.
Not sure I would want to stand every match or sit now,but let's at least have the choice.

 

[broomhillblade]

You collect seats?? Are you building a new stand in your back garden or something?

With regard to your comment about the Leeds fan who has loads of them, this puzzles me as they usually throw their seats at opposing fans dont they?

I remember in the days when you could watch cricket at Bramall Lane, if you sat on the terraces you could hire a cushion for the day (I think they cost threepence). At the end of the day it was customary to throw the cushions on to the edge of the pitch so that the ground staff could collect them.

Autre temps, autre moeurs...

 

[Blackheath Blade]

I remember in the days when you could watch cricket at Bramall Lane, if you sat on the terraces you could hire a cushion for the day (I think they cost threepence). At the end of the day it was customary to throw the cushions on to the edge of the pitch so that the ground staff could collect them.

Autre temps, autre moeurs...

Broomhill: Cushions were also available at the sty when I sometimes went with my dad in their cantilever stand (late 1960's).
In fact, I was there the night they got relegated against Man City and our old fella was throwing anything onto the pitch that he could get his hands on!! It was raining cushions, season tickets, programmes etc. I thought he was gonna throw me on the pitch at one point he was so angry!!

So yes, ban cushions and bring back standing

 

[LoughboroBlade]

For what it's worth, here are Nigel Clough's thoughts on the matter:

“A not insignificant number of our fans prefer to watch football standing up, but we currently do not have the opportunity to satisfy this customer preference. Rail seats could provide us with a safe and well-managed means of doing so.”

 

[Maceyblade]

I think it will happen at other clubs, but I can't see terraces back at the Lane. When we do develop BDTBL (which won't be for a while) it will be to make the Kop bigger, steeper and to make it cantilever. Basically to make the Lane more modern. Adding terraces for me is a backward step.

I'm just about old enough to remember standing on the old John St and I have recently stood at Headingley for a Leeds Rhinos game and the atmosphere was much better, but I can still remember countless times when BDTBL has been rocking with seats everywhere. It's all to do with the attitude of the fans and the quality of the match they are watching.

 

[LoughboroBlade]

I think it will happen at other clubs, but I can't see terraces back at the Lane. When we do develop BDTBL (which won't be for a while) it will be to make the Kop bigger, steeper and to make it cantilever. Basically to make the Lane more modern. Adding terraces for me is a backward step.

I don't think anyone is advocating building of 'terracing' in the old sense. That's not what this is about.

 

[LoughboroBlade]

Except for, the local safety advisory board have to pass any plans.

The Sports Grounds Safety Authority, as I understand it, is responsible for providing local authorities with guidance to ensure guidance and standards on safety are implemented consistently. The consultation specifically asks whether licensing of rail seating by the SPSA should be allowed - this seems like a very reasonable solution to provide local safety advisory boards with reassurance.

 

[GRUMPY BLADE]

A couple of weeks ago I was in the standing area for Munich 1860 v St Pauli in the Allianz Arena, Munich. The standing area is created by simply tipping the seats up. There are a few crash barriers but not many. I was with the St Pauli fans who spent the whole game singing, jumping around and generally having a good time. There was abs0lutely no problem. I cant see any good argument against reintroducing standing areas.

What happened about allocating you an area to stand in?
I can see this been a stumbling block?

Say each section of seats between two gangways has 40 seats or in the German style standing for 80.
Who/how do they ensure that only 80 people are in each section with access from both ends and people determined to stand together?

Its a non starter in my opinion.

 

[bartman]

Does anyone really think we will ever see standing at games in the near future ? It could be done quite easily as in Germany but I really doubt the clubs would want it as it would mean spending cash to put in place and for what when they can charge fans more to be seated. We know football today is all about money any supporter thinking standing will reduce admission prices can ................ well dream on, the clubs want to wring as much cash out of fans as possible safe standing will not happen.

I can't see either of the Sheffield clubs having safe standing in my lifetime. However,if some clubs so allow it,I cannot see clubs reducing prices. They will say the costs involved in converting or building new stands means admission prices would either stay the same or go up.

I would love the Premier League (and football league) to show some bollocks and set maximum prices for games at each level (e.g. Premier League £30 max,Champ £25,£L1 £20 and L2 £15 ) The authorities as a whole have the funds to subsidise this.

 

[SwissBlade]

I wouldn't want standing to return to the lane. I think it'd be shit

 

[LoughboroBlade]

I wouldn't want standing to return to the lane. I think it'd be shit

Obviously, I prefer to stand but respect those that would prefer to sit. It's nice that one of those choices is catered for - would be better if both were though in my view.

 

[SwissBlade]

Obviously, I prefer to stand but respect those that would prefer to sit. It's nice that one of those choices is catered for - would be better if both were though in my view.

I think it would ruin the look, feel and atmosphere of our ground.

With seating the lane creates an amazing atmosphere when it's full. Putting standing in would break that up. Where would you put the standing? If they did it to the Kop I'd have nowhere to sit.

Perhaps stick it in that Kop corner out of the way

 

[munich]

What happened about allocating you an area to stand in?
I can see this been a stumbling block?

Say each section of seats between two gangways has 40 seats or in the German style standing for 80.
Who/how do they ensure that only 80 people are in each section with access from both ends and people determined to stand together?

Its a non starter in my opinion.

There was very little stewarding. There was nothing but common sense to prevent the above. So maybe you are right and it is a non starter -or maybe, as a community, football supporters have learned from tragic experience.

 

[grafikhaus]

I don't think this would be a good idea. Yes, I know it works well in Germany, but so does all-day drinking. I can see only trouble with this idea as football violence is still barely contained and this would just bring more idiots out of the woodwork.
The other week against little Port Vale, there was considerable trouble outside the ground and it would have probably been transferred into a 'safe' standing area.
To use the earlier 'drinking' metaphor, we're just not civilised in this country to be let out of the playground, and it's getting worse.

 

[grafikhaus]

Much as I would like to see standing areas return it is never going to happen I am afraid, the goverment will veto it. Even though the rules are clearly a farce when you can have 20k standing up for rugby league games in Bradford and Leeds, why is that safe but not safe at football grounds?

Totally different dynamic. For a start, rugby league is hardly a game to get excites about and there's none of the inter-city rivalry that football has had for over a hundred years.

 

[LoughboroBlade]

I can see only trouble with this idea as football violence is still barely contained and this would just bring more idiots out of the woodwork.

Idiots will go to football regardless of whether they can sit or stand - I've not seen any more idiots at away games where we've been able to stand in the last couple of years than what I usually see at away games.

 

[LoughboroBlade]

I think it would ruin the look, feel and atmosphere of our ground.

With seating the lane creates an amazing atmosphere when it's full. Putting standing in would break that up. Where would you put the standing? If they did it to the Kop I'd have nowhere to sit.

Perhaps stick it in that Kop corner out of the way

I quite like the look of them to be honest, but each to their own.

Were this to be trialled it's very unlikely that it would be done on a large scale - the Kop corner for example would be ideal in my opinion.

 

[Linz]

Were this to be trialled it's very unlikely that it would be done on a large scale - the Kop corner for example would be ideal in my opinion.

I think the rake would be too steep to meet the regulations in every stand other than the Kop or BLLT.

I don't think this would be a good idea. Yes, I know it works well in Germany, but so does all-day drinking.

I dunno about that! We were in the Berlin FIFA fan park in 2010 when Germany were playing. There were as many fights and as much vandalism as there would be here!

 

[grafikhaus]

I dunno about that! We were in the Berlin FIFA fan park in 2010 when Germany were playing. There were as many fights and as much vandalism as there would be here!

Where do I book? Seriously, I think any comparison with UK behaviour is dangerous as we've proved we just can't handle stuff over here.

 

[Rodley]

I don't think this would be a good idea. Yes, I know it works well in Germany, but so does all-day drinking. I can see only trouble with this idea as football violence is still barely contained and this would just bring more idiots out of the woodwork.
The other week against little Port Vale, there was considerable trouble outside the ground and it would have probably been transferred into a 'safe' standing area.
To use the earlier 'drinking' metaphor, we're just not civilised in this country to be let out of the playground, and it's getting worse.

Why would the trouble be transferred into a safe terracing area inside the ground? BDTBL is not pay on the day and I'd expect membership to be required for a safe standing section. I can't see how rail seating is any different to seating in attracting trouble. People who are banned would still be banned etc. It would be administered in the same way as seating areas (all ticket, tickets bought prior to match etc), probably much more stringently. With rail seating there's less opportunity for crowds to move towards a hot spot of trouble in a ground - much less than current seating in fact which allows people to move along / climb over etc.

I wouldn't stand at the footie, but can't really see the objection if other people choose to do so.

Agreed the atmosphere can be good if a packed, seated Lane is rocking. But invariably 1/3 of the Kop and majority of H-Block are standing at those matches anyway.

 

[LoughboroBlade]

I think the rake would be too steep to meet the regulations in every stand other than the Kop or BLLT.

I imagine that's probably right. That said, things such as the minimum permitted rail height and the maximum permitted stand gradient for areas fitted with rail seats haven't been written for the UK - the sort of thing that could be teased out during trialling to inform guidelines were it to be rolled out in full.

Agreed the atmosphere can be good if a packed, seated Lane is rocking. But invariably 1/3 of the Kop and majority of H-Block are standing at those matches anyway.

Indeed. Which, as set out by the Football League, currently breaks ground regulations: ‘Nobody may stand in any seating area whilst play is in progress. Persistent standing in seated areas whilst play is in progress is strictly forbidden and may result in ejection from the ground’.

 

[grafikhaus]

The problems with Hillsborough were not directly due to standing. It was the fencing at the front - designed keep fans in - that caused the mayhem. Without it the fans would not have been crushed. There were other contributory factors, of course...

They were directly due to an ancient crumbling ground getting away with not having a Safety Certificate,and being awarded big games (including post-89) by corrupt officials with Wednesday's interests at heart.

 

[grafikhaus]

A couple of weeks ago I was in the standing area for Munich 1860 v St Pauli in the Allianz Arena, Munich. The standing area is created by simply tipping the seats up. There are a few crash barriers but not many. I was with the St Pauli fans who spent the whole game singing, jumping around and generally having a good time. There was abs0lutely no problem. I cant see any good argument against reintroducing standing areas.

A bit like this?

​

 

[itsinyerblood]

A bit like this?

​

That's impressive grafikhaus. Surely a designated area could be found? Love the use of the Bonnie Tyler song too, how easy it'd be to 'liberate' that as a Blades anthem with appropriate lyrics. It's anthemic, rousing, and would sound great on match-day.

 

[Wards]

As others have said it'd be nice to have a choice. I currently sit in quite a decent seat (JSS on the half way line, near the top) but have to admit I'd probably go into a standing area given the opportunity. I sit on my arse for the majority of the day at work and I've always enjoyed terracing/the opportunity to stand for a game.

Maybe the BL Lower tier would be ideal, or at least a section of it.

 

[jt64]

I think the rake would be too steep to meet the regulations in every stand other than the Kop or BLLT.

they've got some pretty steep rake in some places in germany. mainz's home end is ridiculous

obviously would support and use the option of standing myself

 

[munich]

A bit like this?

​

very much like that but more of them and with a bit more intensity