Roots of our current plight

[cooperblade]

Robson's signings:

Good: Beattie

ok: Naysmith, Speed

rubbish: Lee Hendrie, David Carney, Billy Sharp

Naysmith was only an OK signing if you totally disregard the transfer fee and his enormous weekly wage.

I thought Speed was very much like the 04/05 Stuart McCall i.e. about as much use as a traffic cone.

 

[Latters]

Naysmith was only an OK signing if you totally disregard the transfer fee and his enormous weekly wage.

I thought Speed was very much like the 04/05 Stuart McCall i.e. about as much use as a traffic cone.

I agree re. Speed, I didn't think he brought much to the team at all. I thought Naysmith was pretty good, though.

He signed Ehiogu, who I thought played well for us, better than expected, and his loanees, Bardsley and Cahill, were good. He built what should have been a great team, if only he could have got them playing as one.

Was it Robson that signed Halford as well?

Whilst the team as a unit was shit, I don't really remember Robson signing a bad player (although I'm sure everybody will now list dozens).

 

[Sothall_Blade]

I'm not bothered about big names; I care about quality. Warnock did not sign the genuine Premiership (not World) Class player that was all we needed to safeguard our position when TEN points clear of the drop. In fact he did not sign a single player of genuine Premiership Class (except perhaps pre-injury Hulse, but that only begs the obvious supplementary question!) either in the post-Promotion close season or in the Premiership season. He chose to rely on determination and commitment. That is never, of itself, enough at any level, still less the top level. Of course, we then dropped like a stone.

It might be McCabe's fault, in large part, but Old Bignose was culpable as well. We have never recovered and it was all too obvious, I'm afraid.

I agree with you but do you not accept there is a chance he wasn't able to attract "genuine Premiership Class players" (e.g. Stephen Warnock) with the wages he was allowed to offer?

Was it purely coincidence that when the wage bill increased massively for Robson, players from Premiership clubs started to sign?

 

[cooperblade]

I agree re. Speed, I didn't think he brought much to the team at all. I thought Naysmith was pretty good, though.

He signed Ehiogu, who I thought played well for us, better than expected, and his loanees, Bardsley and Cahill, were good. He built what should have been a great team, if only he could have got them playing as one.

Was it Robson that signed Halford as well?

Whilst the team as a unit was shit, I don't really remember Robson signing a bad player (although I'm sure everybody will now list dozens).

Ehiogu was good when he was fit (which wasn't often enough), Cahill looked superb and Bardsley would've been OK if he didn't feel he was above running back when he'd got forward.

Naysmith cost £1m more than Matt Hill, was probably on about £600k pa more than Hill and was just a more refined version of him. He didn't cross the half way line much more often than Tony McMahon does.

Robson kept trying to sign Cattermole - that could possibly have been his best signing - and wasn't Keiran Richardson ready to sign before Sunlan gazumped us?

Generally speaking it was all incredibly expensive and ridiculously short term with him. Big names on big money with little or no resale value and loans.

 

[Darren]

"Edit: and the shocking fact is that we were paying more in wages in 2010-11 when we were relegated than we were in 2005-06 when we were promoted (allowing for inflation, the figures are probably around the same in real terms). That is a measure of just how shit Adams was as a manager."

That's a bit harsh on Adams, his hands were tied behind his back when he came to the Lane as the 4th manager of that season. It was obvious we needed 2 decent centre-halves and he wasn't given the money to get them. He had to make do with Collins and one or two young loanees. There had been some shocking decisions taken at boardroom level that season which cost United's Championship status more so than some of Adams' failings.

".

Adams signed Collins.

Before Adams turned up, we had been poor but had consistently been just above the relegation places. Adams signed (fully or on loan) Bent, Collins, Vokes, Riise, Doyle. Lowry, and Mattock all of whom will have been on tidy wages and with the possible exception of Riise and Vokes were univerally shit.

With a budget that got us promoted in 2005-06, Adams turned us into relegation certainties.

 

[cooperblade]

Bardsley summed up in a photo

http://www.rokerreport.com/2013/5/1...leys-night-out-not-what-anyone-wanted-to-see?

 

[Hollinsend]

Slightly off the playing squad point, but the total employee count rose sharply, doubling (241 -> 478) between 2004/5 and 2007/8. Anyone know what might be the reason(s) for the growth?

 

[Bergen Blade]

Adams signed Collins.

Before Adams turned up, we had been poor but had consistently been just above the relegation places. Adams signed (fully or on loan) Bent, Collins, Vokes, Riise, Doyle. Lowry, and Mattock all of whom will have been on tidy wages and with the possible exception of Riise and Vokes were univerally shit.

With a budget that got us promoted in 2005-06, Adams turned us into relegation certainties.

I wasn't a fan of Adams, but is the difficulty in arresting a slide something that should be taken into consideration, both when reviewing Adams and the players he signed? What are the stats for clubs that have four different managers during one season?

I thought we looked so awful that season that we may have gone down whoever (realistically) we hired as our fourth manager.

 

[Latters]

Bardsley summed up in a photo

http://www.rokerreport.com/2013/5/1...leys-night-out-not-what-anyone-wanted-to-see?

Alternatively...



The thing on his shoulder is a Premier League patch. Be a while before our shirts have them on again, if ever. Not really fussed what he does off the pitch.

 

[Bergen Blade]

Fathi did make the bench in the Championship last season.

Shelton's in Turkey now, he's mostly played left wing after leaving United.

 

[cooperblade]

The thing on his shoulder is a Premier League patch. Be a while before our shirts have them on again, if ever. Not really fussed what he does off the pitch.

But we weren't in the PL when he was with us and that obviously led him to think 'I don't really have to try here'

Agree that what he does off the pitch doesn't matter (within reason) but that photo seems to sum up his attitude to football quite nicely.

 

[Darren]

I wasn't a fan of Adams, but is the difficulty in arresting a slide something that should be taken into consideration, both when reviewing Adams and the players he signed? What are the stats for clubs that have four different managers during one season?

I thought we looked so awful that season that we may have gone down whoever (realistically) we hired as our fourth manager.

Blackwell P2 W0 D1 L1 pts 1
Speed P18 W 6 D3 L9 pts 21
Carver P3 W1 Do L2 pts 3
Adams P23 W4 D5 L14 pts 17


So, on the first half of the season, if the form was continued over the season would have seen us in 18th place on 50 points. Crap, but (just) safe. Under Adams, if that form had continued all season would have seen us with 34 points and bottom by 8 points

Adams really did make things a lot worse.

 

[Latters]

But we weren't in the PL when he was with us and that obviously led him to think 'I don't really have to try here'

Agree that what he does off the pitch doesn't matter (within reason) but that photo seems to sum up his attitude to football quite nicely.

No, we weren't in the Premier League, but we could and should have got there with the team we had which was full of players capable of playing there. Robson signed them. We just needed somebody to get them playing to their potential, which Blackwell, of all people, subsequently did, just a bit too late to get us up.

The players showed they were good enough. I wasn't trying to make out that Robson was a good manager, because he clearly wasn't, but I do think he assembled what should have been a very good side, albeit expensive.

 

[PeterNdlovu081]

The chain of events leading to our relegation all started with sacking Blackwell. Things just got gradually worse from there on.

Chopping and changing managers is just asking for trouble so having 4 in one season was just madness.

Look at Bristol City and Wolves this season. Both changed managers in January, both relegated.

 

[Hamburg Blade]

I have heard all sorts of what-if scenarios, most of which can be argued from both sides (of course) and all very interesting (and a damn sight easier in hindsight) but one I've never heard is "would we have been better not sacking Warnock after relegation?"
I often hear the "we should have sacked Warnock after promotion" but what if we'd stuck by the manager who got us promoted and was only relegated because of an odd goal and a bunch of cheats?
I was not a great fan of Warnock, though not unhappy with him either, but I can't help feeling that we would have regained prem status after a year or two or three.

 

[raul]

Agree with that. I would have sacked him when we went up, but he was definately the right man for the job post-relegation.

 

[HoodedClaw]

You kept asking me why he didn't sign Beattie. I just answered your question.

Given the very narrow margin by which we were relegated and however poor NW may be in the transfer market, it's a very difficult argument to make that giving him extra money would not have given him that little extra to keep us up.

Let's go with your view that NW is a complete lunatic in the transfer market. Had he been able to sepend 78% of turnover, he would have been able to indulge his lunacy in buying the likes of Fathi and Shelton AND signed a decent player or two. Just when McCabe released the purse strings in 2005 and made us one of the top second tier spenders, Warnock was able to buy dross (Horsfield, Nalis) and also bring in players who were vital in the promtion bid (Ifill, Gilliespie, Shipperley).

Sorry, I was referencing players of "Beatties Calibre" as per my post 10 which was in reference to you stating that Beattie was a good signing.

I'm don't see how its a difficult argument to make at all, he'd already shown he was no good at spending otherwise why waste £3.5m on Shleton and Fahti alone. Conversely I would say its a much more difficult argument to make to say giving him extra money to spend would have kept us up, where's any history to support it?

Woah, easy fella I dont recall saying Warnock was a "lunatic in the transfer market", just that he was good at spending small not so good at spending big. You've highlighted my argument perfectly, Gillespie and Shipperley were free transfers and Ifill cost lest than £1m, and yes totally agree with them being vital to our promotion bid.

 

[Pinchy]

I agree with you but do you not accept there is a chance he wasn't able to attract "genuine Premiership Class players" (e.g. Stephen Warnock) with the wages he was allowed to offer?

Was it purely coincidence that when the wage bill increased massively for Robson, players from Premiership clubs started to sign?

I think the club as a whole got it terribly wrong in that January transfer window. That might well include self-destructive penny-pinching on the part of KM that ultimately cost millions.

 

[Foxy]

Bardsley summed up in a photo...

and his pal with the fifty pound notes.... You know, the one we "forced out" and we should have kept

 

[Pinchy]

The chain of events leading to our relegation all started with sacking Blackwell. Things just got gradually worse from there on.

Chopping and changing managers is just asking for trouble so having 4 in one season was just madness.

Look at Bristol City and Wolves this season. Both changed managers in January, both relegated.

You think Semi-Pro should still be in the job???? I'm sure you and a couple of others would enjoy the 'football' on offer.

 

[PeterNdlovu081]

You think Semi-Pro should still be in the job???? I'm sure you and a couple of others would enjoy the 'football' on offer.

No I don't think Blackwell should still be in charge now but we should have given him that full season.

 

[Pinchy]

No I don't think Blackwell should still be in charge now but we should have given him that full season.

I'd have sacked him immediately after Wembley. Publicly; in the centre-circle; broadcast over the PA system; live on TV.

 

[GRUMPY BLADE]

The chain of events leading to our relegation all started with sacking Blackwell. Things just got gradually worse from there on.

Chopping and changing managers is just asking for trouble so having 4 in one season was just madness.

Look at Bristol City and Wolves this season. Both changed managers in January, both relegated.

Really held the pigs and Huddersfield back last year didn't it?

 

[judge]

I happen to agree with Darren. Warnock overall did very well for United. Relegation notwithstanding the club was in a much better position on the pitch and financially than when her arrived. But of course he made some crap signings as well as very many good ones, and some of the poorer signings were big money ones going way back to his Notts County days when he bought Agana from us for £500k ? from us when he was past it.

When he arrived we were a struggling club with potential but nowt to spend looking for an experienced manager. Now we have fritted away Warnock's legacy we are in the same position again...........................

agana cost county 900,000 grand

 

[Bergen Blade]

agana cost county 900,000 grand

Didn't he go on loan to Leeds from County and was preferred to start one game ahead of Eric Cantona?

 

[Bean Kryan]

I think warnock doing so well, together with the west ham debacle caused mccabe to lose the plot. if we had been relegated by 20 points he would have stuck with the previously successful formula of running the club on the cheap (with or without neil). Unfortunately he drew the same conclusion as darren and pinchy, which might of worked if he hadn't hired drunken imbecile (a sober imbecile might have got us auto as blackie proved).

 

[Superblades]

It might be McCabe's fault, in large part, but Old Bignose was culpable as well. We have never recovered and it was all too obvious, I'm afraid.

It's wrong to say "we never recovered", because we did. Blackwell got us to the play-off final and we were one game away from a return to the Premiership. KM messed up with the timing of sacking Blackwell, and who he appointed next, what happened after that was a joke and IMO is the root to all our current problems.

 

[mpjacko]

The problem with United is the mistakes after mistakes. When was the last time the club / KM got something right?

You can argue about having 4 managers in 1 season but you could also say that the common factor in this season was the same players. Simply, the players weren't good enough.

I could list many mistakes made by united which you've have all heard before. I just wish KM would run United like he does for his company.

 

[Superblades]

You could argue that Danny Wilson was the right decision, his first season was really good, we were unlucky in what happened with Ched & then losing on penalties. Had Ched been found 'not guilty' then I reckon we would have finished second. He had to size down this season and despite home form, he again did a decent job with what he had available. Sacking Wilson and appointing Morgan highlighted that it is actually the players who are poor and that Wilson did a decent job with them.

 

[Bergen Blade]

Blackwell P2 W0 D1 L1 pts 1
Speed P18 W 6 D3 L9 pts 21
Carver P3 W1 Do L2 pts 3
Adams P23 W4 D5 L14 pts 17


So, on the first half of the season, if the form was continued over the season would have seen us in 18th place on 50 points. Crap, but (just) safe. Under Adams, if that form had continued all season would have seen us with 34 points and bottom by 8 points

Adams really did make things a lot worse.

Your numbers are correct (Not that I've bothered checking ) .

The theory was that the upheaval from having four managers in one season made things more difficult for Adams. If so, his record may have been different if he'd had the full season alone, which may have altered your view of his managerial ability?