Real Ale and Proper Football Alliance (RAPFA) - open letter to Danny Wilson

[SwissBlade]

I saw plenty of Brian Gayle and witnessed Adams play live a couple of times. Did not see Butcher live mind. That is not to say that I did not get enough opportunity to watch all 3 of them on televised games and make a judgement (dinosaur merchants of hoof) about them.



Legends of 'hoof' indeed.

Like Morgs eh? All of them were, probably by their own admission less refined than the likes of Rio Ferdinand, but I would have any of them (with perhaps the exception of Gayle) in my team.

We wouldn't have gone down if Morg's had played this season.

Terry Butcher was as solid as they come and took no shite

 

[JJ Sefton]

I saw plenty of Brian Gayle and witnessed Adams play live a couple of times. Did not see Butcher live mind. That is not to say that I did not get enough opportunity to watch all 3 of them on televised games and make a judgement (dinosaur merchants of hoof) about them.

Ill give you Brian Gayle though Im not sure what you want a centre half to do when the ball is coming towards him with a stiker bearing down. I suppose he could bust out that trick that Ossie Ardiles uses against the Nazis in 'Escape to Victory', its that easy after all isnt it?

As for the other two, youre just wrong. Adams played in the Arsenal team under Wenger and if you think there was anything hoof about them, well, I think your quest for publicity might just have hit the rocks.

Butcher played most of his career with Ipswich Town under Bobby Robson who played anything but 'Hoofball'. He was first picked for England by Ron Greenwood, again, a manager who loathed the Hoof.

Im no fan of Hoofball either, but get your facts straight.

 

[Darren]

Ill give you Brian Gayle though Im not sure what you want a centre half to do when the ball is coming towards him with a stiker bearing down. I suppose he could bust out that trick that Ossie Ardiles uses against the Nazis in 'Escape to Victory', its that easy after all isnt it?

As for the other two, youre just wrong. Adams played in the Arsenal team under Wenger and if you think there was anything hoof about them, well, I think your quest for publicity might just have hit the rocks.

Butcher played most of his career with Ipswich Town under Bobby Robson who played anything but 'Hoofball'. He was first picked for England by Ron Greenwood, again, a manager who loathed the Hoof.

Im no fan of Hoofball either, but get your facts straight.

Gayle was one of the mainstays of the Bassett top tier teams of the early 90's and we would not have gone down in 94 had he not been inured for 2/3 of that season. His coming back in March that year massively tightened up the defence and saw us lose only 2 of our last 13 games and take 19 points from those games - i.e. mid table form. Unfortunately the damage had already been done and the second of those 2 defeats at Chelsea in the last game was enough to send us down.

 

[ZoneManWilf]

Gayle was one of the mainstays of the Bassett top tier teams of the early 90's and we would not have gone down in 94 had he not been inured for 2/3 of that season. His coming back in March that year massively tightened up the defence and saw us lose only 2 of our last 13 games and take 19 points from those games - i.e. mid table form. Unfortunately the damage had already been done and the second of those 2 defeats at Chelsea in the last game was enough to send us down.

I'm absolutely on board with Pinchy et al's view that hoofball is not the way forward in modern football, but I can't quite get how they think every single member of the team needs to be Brazilianesque in their ball skills. Full backs who are competant on the ball are needed to play this way, but centre halves aren't necessarily, or at least it should be down the priority list of skills required. Brian Gayle was a rock for us, and I would take someone with his defensive abilities straight away into this current team.

I feel a similar way about their opinions of Monty. He's put 100% in for this club for his entire career and the value to a team (even a :heart: football team) of a midfielder who can break the opposition's play up should not be understated. Yes, Monty but is limited technically, but put 3 midfielders with him who can pass the ball and those individual limitations become less of an issue to the team as a whole.

All he needs to do is win the ball and play a short pass where possible. Most teams regardless of style and formation are based around 5 defensively minded players and 5 attacking minded players. Usually in a 4-4-2 this mean one of the midfielders is a ball winner rather than a creator.

I would love Monty to stay next season as his aggression and ball winning skills would be a nightmare for League 1 opposition midfields.

If we ever get back to the prem I can take the point about a :heart: football team not having a Monty, but we're a long way off there now and need to cut our cloth accordingly, we are not going to change to be Brazil overnight.

 

[ghandi]

All he needs to do is win the ball and play a short pass where possible. Most teams regardless of style and formation are based around 5 defensively minded players and 5 attacking minded players. Usually in a 4-4-2 this mean one of the midfielders is a ball winner rather than a creator.

Herein lies the problem Monty isn't capable of playing even a short pass.

 

[ZoneManWilf]

All he needs to do is win the ball and play a short pass where possible. Most teams regardless of style and formation are based around 5 defensively minded players and 5 attacking minded players. Usually in a 4-4-2 this mean one of the midfielders is a ball winner rather than a creator.

Herein lies the problem Monty isn't capable of playing even a short pass.

Yes he is, all footballers in the the football league can play a short pass, anyone trying to make a point about how someone like Monty can't play a 10 yard ball to a team-mate is having a laugh.

If he's under under pressure, that's when that 10 yard pass becomes different with a technically limited player, I'll accept that. But that's when you accept a longer ball (hoof) into a channel up front rather than trying to keep possession, but like I said we're not transforming into Brazil overnight in League 1.

 

[Ollessendro]

Like Morgs eh? All of them were, probably by their own admission less refined than the likes of Rio Ferdinand, but I would have any of them (with perhaps the exception of Gayle) in my team.

We wouldn't have gone down if Morg's had played this season.

Terry Butcher was as solid as they come and took no shite

Indeed like Morgs. Though actually, if you bare a legend of hoof wuith a proper footballing centre back it can be a good partnership. Your second statement is merley your opinion, as it is something that we will never know.

Gayle was one of the mainstays of the Bassett top tier teams of the early 90's and we would not have gone down in 94 had he not been inured for 2/3 of that season. His coming back in March that year massively tightened up the defence and saw us lose only 2 of our last 13 games and take 19 points from those games - i.e. mid table form. Unfortunately the damage had already been done and the second of those 2 defeats at Chelsea in the last game was enough to send us down.

Indeed. Cracking defender Gayle, but would not be one of my favourites. Maybe at one point, but die hard English defenders (the masters of hoof) are a dying breed and the RAPFA has moved on. Gayle was one of the top hoof merchants in dinosaur Dave's long ball team. Worked for us for a period, but is well outdated now.

I'm absolutely on board with Pinchy et al's view that hoofball is not the way forward in modern football, but I can't quite get how they think every single member of the team needs to be Brazilianesque in their ball skills. Full backs who are competant on the ball are needed to play this way, but centre halves aren't necessarily, or at least it should be down the priority list of skills required. Brian Gayle was a rock for us, and I would take someone with his defensive abilities straight away into this current team.

I feel a similar way about their opinions of Monty. He's put 100% in for this club for his entire career and the value to a team (even a :heart: football team) of a midfielder who can break the opposition's play up should not be understated. Yes, Monty but is limited technically, but put 3 midfielders with him who can pass the ball and those individual limitations become less of an issue to the team as a whole.

All he needs to do is win the ball and play a short pass where possible. Most teams regardless of style and formation are based around 5 defensively minded players and 5 attacking minded players. Usually in a 4-4-2 this mean one of the midfielders is a ball winner rather than a creator.

I would love Monty to stay next season as his aggression and ball winning skills would be a nightmare for League 1 opposition midfields.

If we ever get back to the prem I can take the point about a :heart: football team not having a Monty, but we're a long way off there now and need to cut our cloth accordingly, we are not going to change to be Brazil overnight.

I just do not buy this argument. The maestro is incapable of passing even 5 yards to a team mate. He is clumsy, completely uncomfrotable on the ball and has the vision of David Blunkett. For all Monty's breaking up of opposition attacks, he breaks just as many of United's up. Before you come back with the everyone needs a defensive midfielder argument, think about this Wilf. Deschamps, Keane, Viera, Carick, Mascherano et al (i.e. defensive midfielders) can pass a ball. Monty simply cannot. The 'we :heart: hoof' brigade will say that every team needs a Monty, but the RAPFA want 2 central midfielders that can pass a ball. Having Monty in a midfield creates a significant burden for the other central midfielder. You can argue that you need a creator and a ball winner, but when Monty has failed to make partnerships with around 7 or 8 different central midfielders in the last few years, then parhaps the we love hoof brigade should be looking at 'ploddy' himself.

 

[JJ Sefton]

Indeed. Cracking defender Gayle, but would not be one of my favourites. Maybe at one point, but die hard English defenders (the masters of hoof) are a dying breed and the RAPFA has moved on. Gayle was one of the top hoof merchants in dinosaur Dave's long ball team. Worked for us for a period, but is well outdated now.

Too true. Whenever, over the last few months, people have asked me whats gone wrong with United Ive answered 'Brian Gayle'.

 

[Ollessendro]

Ill give you Brian Gayle though Im not sure what you want a centre half to do when the ball is coming towards him with a stiker bearing down. I suppose he could bust out that trick that Ossie Ardiles uses against the Nazis in 'Escape to Victory', its that easy after all isnt it?

As for the other two, youre just wrong. Adams played in the Arsenal team under Wenger and if you think there was anything hoof about them, well, I think your quest for publicity might just have hit the rocks.

Butcher played most of his career with Ipswich Town under Bobby Robson who played anything but 'Hoofball'. He was first picked for England by Ron Greenwood, again, a manager who loathed the Hoof.

Im no fan of Hoofball either, but get your facts straight.

Do you remember what happened when Adams came up against Marco Van Basten in 1988? Walthy, that is what happens when a 'legend of hoof' comes up against a proper footballer. Adams did indeed play under Wenger and they did not hoof the ball. However it was not until he left that Arsenal played their best stuff with a centre back partnership of proper footballers (Campbell and Toure).

Similarly the moment that stands out in Butcher's career is when he was left chasing shadows (very Monty-esque actually) in that game against Argentina in 66. Mardonna (a proper footballer) made our very own English 'legend of hoof' look an absolute mug.

My examples were perhaps not the best (FAO Munxy: this is Ollessendro giving ground on his opinion) but they are illustrative. Whether Adams, Gayle or Butcher were good defenders is irrelevant, but not even their biggest fans would advocate them as 'proper footballers'. I could have picked better examples of 'kings of hoof' (Monty being the striking one) nut these gusy were hardly advocates of the beautiful game.

 

[ZoneManWilf]

I just do not buy this argument. The maestro is incapable of passing even 5 yards to a team mate. He is clumsy, completely uncomfrotable on the ball and has the vision of David Blunkett. For all Monty's breaking up of opposition attacks, he breaks just as many of United's up. Before you come back with the everyone needs a defensive midfielder argument, think about this Wilf. Deschamps, Keane, Viera, Carick, Mascherano et al (i.e. defensive midfielders) can pass a ball. Monty simply cannot. The 'we :heart: hoof' brigade will say that every team needs a Monty, but the RAPFA want 2 central midfielders that can pass a ball. Having Monty in a midfield creates a significant burden for the other central midfielder. You can argue that you need a creator and a ball winner, but when Monty has failed to make partnerships with around 7 or 8 different central midfielders in the last few years, then parhaps the we love hoof brigade should be looking at 'ploddy' himself.

So who wins the ball for us? All those players you mentioned who can pass the ball and win the ball are international class. We're in League 1. Even if Monty gets sold, to mass cheers from you lot, we've got Doyle to look forward to who is technically as bad as Monty, but doesn't even do what Monty does on the defensive side.

I don't buy the argument that Monty can't make a 5 or 10 yard pass, because I've watched him for the last 10 years and he can. He can't make them as consistently as good ball players and his control is poor. In a midfield with crap players these limitations get shown up, in a midfield with good players (Tonge, Brown, Nuddy for example), his technical limitations don't affect the flow of the team as much because he's not asked to be an attacking force. I fully agree that at times losing a ball through Monty's lack of control can hurt a midfield, but to say it happens ever time he gets the ball in simply not true. And lets not forget we're in League 1 and quite what standard of player can we attract?

In an ideal world at a higher level of football, Monty wouldn't be in a :heart: football team. But we're in League 1.

Look at Shaun Derry. Crap for us and hacker, I'd easily take Monty over him for his performances in a United shirt. But for QPR he looked decent this season. Monty in last year's QPR side would have done an excellent job and don't tell me just because they were managed by Warnock they were hoofers.

If you read posts I have made when Speed took over for example, you will know I'm no fan of hoofball, but the general philosophy of a team and having a defensive midfielder are 2 seperate things.

You can cheer all you like when Monty gets sold, I will be crying because it means more of Michael Doyle.

 

[diplomat]

I've always liked Derry. A Monty but he can pass and has composure. I was upset we sold him when he was a player with potential in a key area ie CM but who we tended to see at RB or CH if memory serves me (at least when I saw him)

 

[ZoneManWilf]

Similarly the moment that stands out in Butcher's career is when he was left chasing shadows (very Monty-esque actually) in that game against Argentina in 66. Mardonna (a proper footballer) made our very own English 'legend of hoof' look an absolute mug.

Interesting example... Maradona was not only a 'proper' footballer, but probably the best player ever. I'm sure all the silky skilled defenders in the 1986 World Cup did great against him as Argentina romped to the title.

Central defenders in a hoofball system are instructed to hoof it regardless of their ball skills. Central defenders in a team told to keep possession look for a full back or midfielder to pass to.

With the Brian Gayle example you're confusing a player's ability with how the team was set up and told to play by Dave Bassett. Brian Gayle hoofed it because he got told to, doesn't mean he was a centre back who couldn't play in a footballing team.

In a team instructed by Kevin Blackwell to get it up to Hendo at the earliest oppportunity, and set-up to be defensive minded, Monty stood out as a hoofer because he won the ball and hoofed it. In a team instructed by Danny Wilson, Monty could win the ball and look for an easy pass rather than hoof it, if he has 3 competant midfielders around him, his ball winning skills would give more to the team than his lack of technically ability would hurt it.

 

[JJ Sefton]

Do you remember what happened when Adams came up against Marco Van Basten in 1988? Walthy, that is what happens when a 'legend of hoof' comes up against a proper footballer. Adams did indeed play under Wenger and they did not hoof the ball. However it was not until he left that Arsenal played their best stuff with a centre back partnership of proper footballers (Campbell and Toure).

Similarly the moment that stands out in Butcher's career is when he was left chasing shadows (very Monty-esque actually) in that game against Argentina in 66. Mardonna (a proper footballer) made our very own English 'legend of hoof' look an absolute mug.

My examples were perhaps not the best (FAO Munxy: this is Ollessendro giving ground on his opinion) but they are illustrative. Whether Adams, Gayle or Butcher were good defenders is irrelevant, but not even their biggest fans would advocate them as 'proper footballers'. I could have picked better examples of 'kings of hoof' (Monty being the striking one) nut these gusy were hardly advocates of the beautiful game.

So youve written Tony Adams and Terry Butcher off as hoofers based on the fact they got tucked up by Maradona and Van Basten? My dad once saw Jimmy Greaves get past Joe Shaw, does that make him a hoofer as well? And Sol Campbell a 'proper footballer' compared to Tony Adams? Seriously, try watching some of these players.

Interesting point about Adams; whenever I ask my Arsenal supporting mates which one player from the past they could have back the answer is always Tony Adams.

Seriously Olle, you must do better.

 

[cahill]

" Alaine Giresse, Tigana and Platini" What a team the French were at the time. I'd settle for a night talking/watching that type of proper football supping warm real ale and discussing the finer points of dialectical materialism as opposed to the bland shit served as pub fayre and culture these days. What is extra cold beer about ? Not sure about English Lit. prefer things gallic these days. Count me in and a set to with some Car Park protesters to finish .

 

[DronnieBlade]

Ollesandro.

Can I have a RAPFA membership application form please

 

[Pinchy]

What is it about The Maestro that exempts him from the ordinary and basic tasks of a competent midfielder? We cannot afford the 'luxury' of a one-dimensional; one-directional anti-footballer. At any level of football the destroyer has to be able to play a bit; the playmaker must be able to dig in.

Any decent midfielder [even at League One level] will see Montgomery as a dream come true rather than a nightmare. They dance around his futile shadow-chasing much as if he were a training-ground traffic cone. Sure he'll run around tirelessly and with great commitment. That's admirable but it ain't effective. He does not win the ball at all. On the occasions he is 'successful' in the tackle [nowhere near as often as Ploddyphiles try to kid themselves] the best that happens is a restart with the opposition in possession, be it from a throw-in; a corner kick, a free-kick on the edge of our box or, all too often, the penalty-spot.

Did last season not happen? Did he not play his full part in our ignominious failure? Did he shield the back four? Or 'break up play'?

You bet you'll hear the cheers when he finally becomes some other club's liability [Is The Lane still beseiged by Premier League managers fighting for his signature?]. RAPFA will be hosting a Gala Dinner. Marco Pierre White will do the catering. Heidsieck 1907 Champagne will flow like water and we'll relax with after-dinner Gurkha Black Dragon cigars. Music will be provided by Take That who will, for one night only, adopt the name 'Ave It', in tribute to our hapless hero.

 

[cahill]

His mother must love him

 

[ZoneManWilf]

What is it about The Maestro that exempts him from the ordinary and basic tasks of a competent midfielder? We cannot afford the 'luxury' of a one-dimensional; one-directional anti-footballer. At any level of football the destroyer has to be able to play a bit; the playmaker must be able to dig in.

Any decent midfielder [even at League One level] will see Montgomery as a dream come true rather than a nightmare. They dance around his futile shadow-chasing much as if he were a training-ground traffic cone. Sure he'll run around tirelessly and with great commitment. That's admirable but it ain't effective. He does not win the ball at all. On the occasions he is 'successful' in the tackle [nowhere near as often as Ploddyphiles try to kid themselves] the best that happens is a restart with the opposition in possession, be it from a throw-in; a corner kick, a free-kick on the edge of our box or, all too often, the penalty-spot.

Did last season not happen? Did he not play his full part in our ignominious failure? Did he shield the back four? Or 'break up play'?

You bet you'll hear the cheers when he finally becomes some other club's liability [Is The Lane still beseiged by Premier League managers fighting for his signature?]. RAPFA will be hosting a Gala Dinner. Marco Pierre White will do the catering. Heidsieck 1907 Champagne will flow like water and we'll relax with after-dinner Gurkha Black Dragon cigars. Music will be provided by Take That who will, for one night only, adopt the name 'Ave It', in tribute to our hapless hero.

Most of your posts when Wilson was appointed I agreed with, your view on how we need to play in this day and age I agree with. I'm not saying the philosophy of a team in League One can't be football based, far, far from it.

I just think you and Olle are one-eyed about what Monty brings to a team and you seem to think you can set a team up at this level where everyone is a pure footballer - there just aren't enough available players. I genuinely think you're over zealous about criticism of Monty to get a reaction and justify your position, as I simply disagree with most of your middle paragraph. Monty is certainly not technically gifted, but is more effective than you make out, certainy more so the big majority of first teamers from last year who I'd get rid of ahead of Monty (Doyle, Collins, Nosworthy, Yeates, Cresswell, Simonsen, Bogdanovic for starters). Wasn't Monty in the team that got promoted? How come he didn't get the credit for that, but all the blame for last season?

Your view seems to be that if you :heart: football, then you can't have less technically gifted-footballers in your side. I fundamentally disagree with this as athletecism and ability to pressure opponents still plays a part in football, especially at League 1 level. Didn't Chris "Hoof" Morgan play in Danny Wilson's Brazil side of 97? How did he manage to fit in with such footballness?

Didn't Barca harry Man U at every opportunity the other night and not give them time on the ball? Good footballing sides still value that. If you want to pass like Barca and pressure opponents like Barca, how do you suggest we do it on a League 1 budget without mixing types of players?

So yeah I agree with your thoughts on the style of play, Kendall proved it can be done with a limited squad with the correct instructions and tactics in his first few months when he took over from Bassett. Speed was actually doing ok until we got hammered by Scunthorpe and he switched to the defensive mode he learned from Blackwell and totally lost the coherency in how he wanted the team to play.

But I think you're mistaken if you think we can create a team to play to the extremes you seem to be suggesting on a massively reduced wage bill in League 1. If you're not mistaken, where are the players going to come from?

 

[bricktop]

Gayle was one of the mainstays of the Bassett top tier teams of the early 90's and we would not have gone down in 94 had he not been inured for 2/3 of that season. His coming back in March that year massively tightened up the defence and saw us lose only 2 of our last 13 games and take 19 points from those games - i.e. mid table form. Unfortunately the damage had already been done and the second of those 2 defeats at Chelsea in the last game was enough to send us down.

One similarity between last seasons relegation, and getting relegated in 1993/94 was the loss of an influential central defender for the majority of the season.

 

[Pinchy]

Most of your posts when Wilson was appointed I agreed with, your view on how we need to play in this day and age I agree with. I'm not saying the philosophy of a team in League One can't be football based, far, far from it.

I just think you and Olle are one-eyed about what Monty brings to a team and you seem to think you can set a team up at this level where everyone is a pure footballer - there just aren't enough available players. I genuinely think you're over zealous about criticism of Monty to get a reaction and justify your position, as I simply disagree with most of your middle paragraph. Monty is certainly not technically gifted, but is more effective than you make out, certainy more so the big majority of first teamers from last year who I'd get rid of ahead of Monty (Doyle, Collins, Nosworthy, Yeates, Cresswell, Simonsen, Bogdanovic for starters). Wasn't Monty in the team that got promoted? How come he didn't get the credit for that, but all the blame for last season?

Your view seems to be that if you :heart: football, then you can't have less technically gifted-footballers in your side. I fundamentally disagree with this as athletecism and ability to pressure opponents still plays a part in football, especially at League 1 level. Didn't Chris "Hoof" Morgan play in Danny Wilson's Brazil side of 97? How did he manage to fit in with such footballness?

Didn't Barca harry Man U at every opportunity the other night and not give them time on the ball? Good footballing sides still value that. If you want to pass like Barca and pressure opponents like Barca, how do you suggest we do it on a League 1 budget without mixing types of players?

So yeah I agree with your thoughts on the style of play, Kendall proved it can be done with a limited squad with the correct instructions and tactics in his first few months when he took over from Bassett. Speed was actually doing ok until we got hammered by Scunthorpe and he switched to the defensive mode he learned from Blackwell and totally lost the coherency in how he wanted the team to play.

But I think you're mistaken if you think we can create a team to play to the extremes you seem to be suggesting on a massively reduced wage bill in League 1. If you're not mistaken, where are the players going to come from?

Lee Willamson and David McAllister are already in the squad. Both are far better footballers than Monty. They can pass, get from box to box and like a tackle. They would, I think, be very effective in tandem. Unlike Monty, who might be more effective on a tandem.

 

[ZoneManWilf]

Lee Willamson and David McAllister are already in the squad. Both are far better footballers than Monty. They can pass, get from box to box and like a tackle. They would, I think, be very effective in tandem. Unlike Monty, who might be more effective on a tandem.

Not seen enough of McAllister to form full opinion on him, although early impressions are excellent. Willo I really like as a footballer, but can he play more than 50% of matches for fitness reasons? I'm assuming Monty will be gone anyway, so if McAllister doesn't work out and/or Willo is unfit, we're left with Doyle...

Of the youngsters, Whitehouse looks like he can be box-to-box and not a bad player, I wonder if the pace of the professional level might be a bit much for him though. Harriott is tidy and a good footballer, but probably needs to fill out a bit. The moans I heard about him passing it 'sideways' too much in the YC matches are indicative of a support base too used and indoctrinated with direct football.

 

[Barney Rubble]

Lots of people on here seem willing to praise Brian Gayle and his defensive abilities, but I used to get a masochistic pleasure out of his unbelievable distributional qualities.

The sight of Gayle bringing the ball out of defense was the signal for the rest of the team to scatter to all areas of the pitch because none of them, or us, or even Gayle himself had any idea of where the ball would end up.

Tony Currie could put a 50 yard pass onto a handkerchief, whereas with Gayle there was only a 50/50 chance of the ball staying in play. For several years Bassett's longball game was played with a purpose, but in the latter years it slowly degenerated into increasingly aimless hoofball, with Gayle's punts forward being at the heart of this decline.

 

[Pinchy]

When DB lost Deano I'm afraid he lost the plot. It wasn't entirely his fault but his last eighteen months slightly tarnished his golden years.

 

[bricktop]

When DB lost Deano I'm afraid he lost the plot. It wasn't entirely his fault but his last eighteen months slightly tarnished his golden years.

What was criminal was the fact, that when he was in the peak of his powers, Bassett got given next to nothing to spend in the transfer market, whilst our rivals spent a lot of money for the time. One big question about Bassett was about how well he could have done for Sheffield United given a decent transfer budget at the time, instead of having to bring in free's, players from lower leagues and non league?

---------- Post added at 11:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:07 PM ----------

Pinchy, as an aside, i've got a bottle of Yorkshire Square Ale brewed by Black Sheep breweries. Does this help any future application to RAPFA?

 

[Ollessendro]

So youve written Tony Adams and Terry Butcher off as hoofers based on the fact they got tucked up by Maradona and Van Basten? My dad once saw Jimmy Greaves get past Joe Shaw, does that make him a hoofer as well? And Sol Campbell a 'proper footballer' compared to Tony Adams? Seriously, try watching some of these players.

Interesting point about Adams; whenever I ask my Arsenal supporting mates which one player from the past they could have back the answer is always Tony Adams.

Seriously Olle, you must do better.

Like I said Walthy, they were not the best examples I could have chosen. I hold my hands up. Other than Gayle (whose distribution was horrendous) the others could pass. My example was illustrative mind. These players were limited defenders and hardly masters of the beautiful game. The point I was tyring to put across was that that my heroes (and many of the RAPFA members) are Cryff, Maradonna, Beckenbaur, Zidane and Platini. Ambassadors of the beautiful game and not limited in the slightest. For United it would be Currie, Woodward and modern day Brown, Borbokis and Glynn Hodges.

Your overeaction to this suggest something else. I am guessing that it is the left wing politics element. Don't worry though Walthy, this should not be a stumbling block. I know you are not a hoof lover and that you like real ale. Sure we can have a chat about ticky tacky, the Holland team with Cryff, Repp, Neskins and Haan and Maradonna's pass to Burachaga in 86. Just do not expect a warm welcome if you start saying that Thatcher was right!!?

We are getting away from the point though owd mucker. The point is that we need to oust the hoof and welcome the beautiful game. Surely we are reading of the same hymn sheet with that?

Wilf. Pinchy is doing a pretty good job of answering your questions, but a couple of points. Derry always could pass. His control is much better than Monty's and he can pass much more accuratly. I would even say that his defensive role is better, despite his all round game. Monty is better at chasing shadows though. The other point is that Willo, McAllister, Whitehouse or AN other cental midfielder that can pass and stick a foot in will make the tackles.

---------- Post added at 10:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:11 AM ----------

Pinchy, as an aside, i've got a bottle of Yorkshire Square Ale brewed by Black Sheep breweries. Does this help any future application to RAPFA?

This would be a prime capture Pinch. One of the executive members of the 'we :heart: hoof' brigade wanting to convert to proper football. Is this genuine (it would be a bigger capture than Cantona going to Man U for next to nowt from Leeds) or could he be a mole (with the intention of disrupting our intelectual, pure football chat?!

(Brownie, were you not ribbing me the other day for Black Sheep being a commercial brewery?)

 

[JJ Sefton]

Like I said Walthy, they were not the best examples I could have chosen. I hold my hands up. Other than Gayle (whose distribution was horrendous) the others could pass. My example was illustrative mind. These players were limited defenders and hardly masters of the beautiful game. The point I was tyring to put across was that that my heroes (and many of the RAPFA members) are Cryff, Maradonna, Beckenbaur, Zidane and Platini. Ambassadors of the beautiful game and not limited in the slightest. For United it would be Currie, Woodward and modern day Brown, Borbokis and Glynn Hodges.

Actually Adams and Butcher were exceptional centre halves, Adams more so and he was wel capable of playing in a passing side like the Arsenal one he played in for years under Arsene Wenger. You slag them off and cite as your heroes a bunch of blokes who, er, played in different positions. So go on then, tell us which silky smooth centre halves youd wet your sheets over.

---------- Post added at 10:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:40 AM ----------

We are getting away from the point though owd mucker. The point is that we need to oust the hoof and welcome the beautiful game. Surely we are reading of the same hymn sheet with that?

I totally agree but I can think of dozens of players who get idolised but who were nowt more than hoof merchants before I started picking on Adams and Butcher.

 

[Ollessendro]

Actually Adams and Butcher were exceptional centre halves, Adams more so and he was wel capable of playing in a passing side like the Arsenal one he played in for years under Arsene Wenger.

You are pushing it a bit now. They were both solid centre halves, but had limited ability. Adams particularly played in a decent team and made the most of what he had. They are both defenders of a dying breed (the old English ale house stopper). But I have given ground here Walthy. I could have chosen much better examples.

You slag them off and cite as your heroes a bunch of blokes who, er, played in different positions. So go on then, tell us which silky smooth centre halves youd wet your sheets over.

Rio Ferdinand, Ronald Koeman, Franz Beckenbauer, Lothar Matthaus, Costacurta and Baresi, Gerrard Pique, Lucio, Desasilly/Blanc/Thuram, Paul McGraph, Cannavaro/Nesta, Hansen and Lawrenson and Frank De Boer (to name a few). You'll want a few English examples so I'll say Jags, Ledley King, Woodgate, Des Walker(when he played for Forrest!?) and Bobby Moore.

I totally agree but I can think of dozens of players who get idolised but who were nowt more than hoof merchants before I started picking on Adams and Butcher.

I have already said that I could have chosen better examples. It was a slip of the wrist and if I had realised how pedantic you were going to be then I would have taken more time to choose them. I am not willing to go round in circles about this.

 

[Pinchy]

What was criminal was the fact, that when he was in the peak of his powers, Bassett got given next to nothing to spend in the transfer market, whilst our rivals spent a lot of money for the time. One big question about Bassett was about how well he could have done for Sheffield United given a decent transfer budget at the time, instead of having to bring in free's, players from lower leagues and non league?

---------- Post added at 11:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:07 PM ----------



Pinchy, as an aside, i've got a bottle of Yorkshire Square Ale brewed by Black Sheep breweries. Does this help any future application to RAPFA?

It certainly does help Brownie. The tipping [or should it be tippling?] point, however, is whether you pour a drop into my glass!

:beer:

 

[super_pig]

>I just do not buy this argument.
me neither.. as a mate of mine (a good former semi pro himself) says.. monty's second touch is a tackle
anyways this is the main reason i think he should go. he divides the fans. i've wasted hours of my life debating the merits(?) of this ahem.. player..
one other thing .. i wouldn't exactly describe puyol as messi but he certainly plays for barcelona.. quoting decent and commited defence players as an argument 'for' hoof ball simply isn't a valid argument.. that isn't their job.

 

[bricktop]

Has anybody got any updated membership figures of Rapta.

I miss KB, Hendo, Hoofball and have to drink lager every day to get over it