Planning for 2010/11

[norfolkblade]

KB has said he needs to bring in 14 new players over the summer, any ideas on who he should try to bring in? Clearly, finances will be limited unless nothing short of a miracle happens, so I wanted to know what people think! What positions will need to be filled, and who will fill them?

 

[Blades_257]

I don't think he needs to bring in as many as 14. We have around 15 players under contract, and most of them are worth keeping.

Kenny - keep
Aksalu - keep
Lowton - keep
Morgan - keep
Taylor - keep
Stewart - sell
France - sell
Quinn - keep
Williamson - keep
Ward - keep
Yeates - keep
Reid - keep
Henderson - keep
Cresswell - keep
Sharp - keep
Evans - sell if we can get a decent fee, around 750k-£1m

I'd also offer Naysmith a new contract on reduced wages. Whether he'd accept I don't know.
Monty needs to be signed up as well.

So potentially we could have a much bigger squad than we think we will and may only need 8 or 9 new signings. But it wouldn't surprise me if Ward and Henderson are sold and Monty and Naysmith's contracts aren't renewed. Then we will have a huge task on our hands.

 

[LouTheBlade]

GK (Backup) - Alex Smithies?

RB (First Team) - Frazer Richardson?

CB (First Team) - Nyron Nosworthy?

CB (Backup) - Elliot Ward?

LB (First Team) - Lee Hills?

CM (First Team) - Michael Tonge?

CM (Backup) - Hugo Colace?

RW (Backup) - Lloyd Sam?

LW (First Team) - Barry Bannan?

RW/LW (First Team) - Darren Ambrose?

ST (Backup) - Craig Mackail-Smith?

Then bring in a few journey men (as usual) to pad it out.

 

[Blades_257]

Seamus Coleman - season long loan
Marcel Seip - 150k
Tommy Elphick (Brighton) - 250k
Lee Collins (Port Vale) - 250k
Albert Adomah - free
Marc Pugh (Hereford) - 200k
Ishmel Demontagnac - 100k
Chris Dagnall - free

 

[LouTheBlade]

Seamus Coleman - season long loan
Marcel Seip - 150k
Tommy Elphick (Brighton) - 250k
Lee Collins (Port Vale) - 250k
Albert Adomah - free
Marc Pugh (Hereford) - 200k
Ishmel Demontagnac - 100k
Chris Dagnall - free

I have vaguely heard of most of them. There is probably a reason for that.

What frightens me is that those are the sorts of players fans are linking us to now.

 

[Blades_257]

So they should be dismissed due to the level they're playing at? This is the sort of market we're in now, don't kid yourself that we'll be able to sign players like Smithies, Nosworthy and Ambrose.

And of course you won't have heard of many of them. The lower leagues barely get any coverage.

If reality frightens you then I'd advise you not to renew your season ticket.

 

[LouTheBlade]

So they should be dismissed due to the level they're playing at? This is the sort of market we're in now, don't kid yourself that we'll be able to sign players like Smithies, Nosworthy and Ambrose.

And of course you won't have heard of many of them. The lower leagues barely get any coverage.

If reality frightens you then I'd advise you not to renew your season ticket.

There's no need to get upset. I made a comment based on my perception of fans' expectations. It wasn't knocking your post at all.

As regards what market we are in, even I (the eternal pessimist) feel you're selling us slightly short there. We will be able to attract and fund far better signings than that IMO; despite our level of debt and requirement for cost cutting. We're not in a situation where we need to work on league two budgets, we just need to cut our high wage bill to decrease our out-goings.

Believe me, if United start signing players of that quality many fans will walk away. I don't see how the likes of Nosworthy, Ambrose and Smithies are unattainable. Ambrose plays for a club in administration, Smithies is a young goalie at a L1 side and Sunderland won't want a fortune for Noz; the only issue with him is his wages. United will have plenty to play with on the wage budget at the end of the season once we have 9 players left.

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

Kenny - keep
Aksalu - keep
Lowton - keep
Morgan - keep
Taylor - keep
Stewart - sell
France - keep
Quinn - keep
Williamson - keep
Ward - keep
Yeates - keep
Reid - keep
Henderson - sell
Cresswell - keep
Sharp - keep
Evans - keep

Monty is gone there is no way he is going to sign a contract for less money than he is on now, especially with QPR interested. He would be plain stupid to do so.

 

[broomhillblade]

KB has said he needs to bring in 14 new players over the summer, any ideas on who he should try to bring in? Clearly, finances will be limited unless nothing short of a miracle happens, so I wanted to know what people think! What positions will need to be filled, and who will fill them?

No idea.

Hope this helps. ;-)

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

I don't see how the likes of Nosworthy, Ambrose and Smithies are unattainable. Ambrose plays for a club in administration,

But has QPR interested and a host of other Championship sides. We have no chance of landing him with the new wage budget.

Smithies is a young goalie at a L1 side

and available for only £2-3 million. forget it.

and Sunderland won't want a fortune for Noz; the only issue with him is his wages. United will have plenty to play with on the wage budget at the end of the season once we have 9 players left.

Plenty, I don't think you will find many players on over 12K in the new wage budget which puts Nyron out of the window.

 

[jpblade]

Kenny - keep
Aksalu - keep
Lowton - keep
Morgan - keep
Taylor - sell
Stewart - end of contract
France - give away
Quinn - sell
Williamson - keep
Ward - keep
Yeates - sell
Reid - sell - apparently he can't settle up Noth
Henderson - keep
Cresswell - keep
Sharp - keep but as Blamewell will still be here there isn't an earthly he will be heer come august.
Evans - sell
Montgomery - Keep but he will be on his bike down the M1.

 

[Blades_257]

There's no need to get upset. I made a comment based on my perception of fans' expectations. It wasn't knocking your post at all.

As regards what market we are in, even I (the eternal pessimist) feel you're selling us slightly short there. We will be able to attract and fund far better signings than that IMO; despite our level of debt and requirement for cost cutting. We're not in a situation where we need to work on league two budgets, we just need to cut our high wage bill to decrease our out-goings.

Believe me, if United start signing players of that quality many fans will walk away. I don't see how the likes of Nosworthy, Ambrose and Smithies are unattainable. Ambrose plays for a club in administration, Smithies is a young goalie at a L1 side and Sunderland won't want a fortune for Noz; the only issue with him is his wages. United will have plenty to play with on the wage budget at the end of the season once we have 9 players left.

We'll have to sell players to fund "better" (more expensive) signings. There's not many players in our squad who would bring in large transfer fees so we won't have much to spend either way. Surely taking low risk gambles on young, promising players from the lower leagues is the right policy?

I think you're confusing their quality for the level they're playing at or their 'pedigree' - most fans will know nothing about their ability, that's why any fans who'd walk away on the basis that we're signing players they know little about are ignorant idiots. They'd basically be judging them on where they've came from and nothing else. Walking away due to that would be absolutely pathetic.

Do you honestly think Smithies, Nosworthy and Ambrose is the sort of level we're at now? I don't, because we can't afford £2.5m, £1m/15k a week and £1.5m respectively.

 

[LouTheBlade]

1) We'll have to sell players to fund "better" (more expensive) signings. There's not many players in our squad who would bring in large transfer fees so we won't have much to spend either way. Surely taking low risk gambles on young, promising players from the lower leagues is the right policy?

2) I think you're confusing their quality for the level they're playing at or their 'pedigree' - most fans will know nothing about their ability, that's why any fans who'd walk away on the basis that we're signing players they know little about are ignorant idiots. They'd basically be judging them on where they've came from and nothing else. Walking away due to that would be absolutely pathetic.

3)Do you honestly think Smithies, Nosworthy and Ambrose is the sort of level we're at now? I don't, because we can't afford £2.5m, £1m/15k a week and £1.5m respectively.

Blades_257,

1:- You're making an assumption. KM and TB have never once suggested that we wont have money available for transfers, TB has said that we need to work on a tighter budget as far as the wage bill goes. We are cutting our cloth, we're not removing ourselves entirely from the market! I don't know where people get this idea from. No one said we have to sell anyone to raise transfer funds. That may well be the case but no one has suggested it at this stage.

2:- I'm not confusing anything matey. I am well aware that there are lower league players who can make the step up, there always are. Whether you think fans are "pathetic" or "ignorant" for walking away because they dont like signings is utterly irrelevant. I'm telling you that it will happen. Football fans are very fickle and want to see household names, that is the nature of the beast. Most importantly they have a right to withdraw their money at any given moment and if they think the recruitment looks unambitious then it is quite likely they will. Your opinion of such people won't change that.

3:- Again another assumption. You have no idea what we can afford and neither do I. Football fans have this idea in their head that they know exactly what the current players earn and how much it would take to sign a new one. A lot of the time they are very far off the truth. Ive played in the game so I know most supporters are way off with these assumptions. If United aren't at the level of Smithies, Nosworthy and Ambrose then I would suggest we prepare ourselves for a relegation battle.

 

[Blades_257]

1. The signs are crystal clear. Do you think they'd tell all the fans if we had no money to spend? Of course they wouldn't because that wouldn't be in their best interests. We are cost cutting, we are trying to offload some of the high earners and have been doing for some time. We received around £2m for Kilgallon in January and only spent 400k of it on Mark Yeates. In the summer we received between £8-10m for the Kyles and spent about £2m of it (the Evans fee is mostly installments). How would focusing on lower league talent be 'removing ourselves entirely' from the market?

2. There probably are fans who will over react to lower league signings by throwing their toys out of the pram and not renewing. As most of them will know fuck all about the player/s in question, I think pathetic and ignorant would sum them up perfectly. Anyone expecting 'household names' is deluded and we'll be better off without those types there next season - expectations can be a massive handicap.

3. I reckon I have a pretty good rough idea of what we can and can't afford and the players who would and wouldn't be attainable. Saying we can't afford Smithies is certainly no assumption, he'd cost at least £2m and we have a good goalkeeper in Paddy Kenny. There will be plenty of teams in for Darren Ambrose and he'll cost at least £1.5m. He's unrealistic. Nosworthy signed a new contract with Sunderland only a few months ago and will be on a wage that's beyond our structure. Just because we will struggle to attract players like this doesn't mean we're in for a relegation battle. Finding players who represent value for money could see us challenging for a play off spot. After all, the best player in the Championship only cost 150k..................... from Livingston.

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

Lou,

For comparison this season we started with a wage bill around the £10 Million level, next season Birch wants this to be £6 Million. This is all information released from the club so to hope to entice Smithies, Nosworthy and Ambrose you are aiming too high. Our wage bill next season will be more comparable with Donny, Bristol City, Swansea, and Coventry.

 

[LouTheBlade]

1. If there is anything I can say about United with absolute certainty at the moment, it is that NOTHING is crystal clear. Do you think they would tell the fans if we had LOADS of money to spend? They wouldn't do that either, because it it wasn't spent wisely they would open themselves up for criticism and make a rod for their own backs. Unless you happen to be a director at the club you have as much idea as the rest of us! By concentrating on lower league players we would be removing ourselves from the market we are currently in yes. I don't see how that is difficult to understand.

2. As I said, it doesnt matter what you think of those fans. Large numbers will act in this way. If you think we're better off without these supporters attending then you're clearly not thinking with a business head on. Anyone's money is good money.

3. Everyone has a 'rough idea.' But once again you are making an assumption that Darren Ambrose is worth 1.5m and that Smithies will cost 2m etc. You have no idea of how desperate these clubs might be to make money and neither do I. With Palace's financial situation being so public I can guarantee you that NO ONE will pay 1.5m for Ambrose! The clubs that are interested will know they can prize him away for a lot less given Palace's situation. Smithies is a young, unproven goalie and will not command 2m from anyone. Huddersfield most probably have debt as well and will not be able to hold out for massive sums. Players are only worth whatever clubs are prepared to pay for them. The first rule of sales in business is that an asset is worth what someone is prepared to pay. A shopkeeper for example might have stock with a shelf/cash value of 500k. If no one wants to buy it it is actually worth fuck all! A player is worth £0 until someone wants to buy him.

If we are to assume that Bob is correct and that United's wage bill will be £6M next season, then that gives us far greater potential than just being able to sign League Two players!

 

[norfolkblade]

Lets not forget, there is some good, young talent coming through the lower leagues, jamie ward is a fine example of that, i must be honest, i questioned that signing at first, but christ has he proved me wrong (injuries aside!)

Have to say though, chances of us signing anyone who isn't used in the PL too often seems remote to me, we have a good core of players who need to be managed properly to get them playing the football we expect to see, have said this for a while now, a footballing manager would get the best out of Ched and Billy, as they would play off each other, O'Driscoll has proved that in Billys case, and I have watched Ched first hand consistently when he was at Norwich, every week he was awesome and managed to create something, I don't think it helps him, or any of the players for that matter, when fans get on their backs straight away, must remember he is still only young and has a lot to learn!

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

Lou,

I've got say I'm loving your optimism even if your maths ain't adding up.

For reference £6 Million a year wage bill would work out at aprox £115 K a week total for the whole squad.

You are also asuming that other clubs aren't looking at the likes of Ambrose and Smithies whereas I'm 99% certain at least a couple of club are looking at both.
Sorry to say it but we can't compete with these clubs, ex-premiership or the likes of QPR.

 

[LouTheBlade]

Lou,

I've got say I'm loving your optimism even if your maths ain't adding up.

For reference £6 Million a year wage bill would work out at aprox £115 K a week total for the whole squad.

You are also asuming that other clubs aren't looking at the likes of Ambrose and Smithies whereas I'm 99% certain at least a couple of club are looking at both.
Sorry to say it but we can't compete with these clubs, ex-premiership or the likes of QPR.

Bob,

I am the most pessimistic person you will meet. I haven't done any maths here.

I know how much £6M a year is and with a 115k a week wage bill, that would equate to an average salary of exactly 5k per player if you had a squad of 23 (just for arguments sake).

I haven't assumed anything about Ambrose and Smithies; or anyone else. I am suggesting they are worth looking at and IMO aren't outside of our means.

I read your posts a lot Bob and I can promise you, your perception of what Championship / FL players earn is way beyond the truth. I still have friends in the game, two are CCC players and shall remain nameless to protect their privacy. I know what they earn and I know what many of their colleagues earn. From speaking to them it would appear that the average CCC salary is within the region of 5-6k a week, excluding Newcastle and Boro who pay outrageous PL salaries.

Yes some carry a legacy of PL salaries that they try to sustain on parachute payments, but not to the extent you seem to believe. I am not trying to be a know it all, but I know that a 6M wage budget is enough to be reasonably competitive at this level - I am not suggesting its enough to be able to sign Ambrose or any player in particular for that matter. Of the players we mentioned I don't know how much any of them earn, but a 6M budget is more than enough to sign decent players. A 10M budget is lavish and I shudder to think what our top earners were on!

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

Fair enough Lou, I think you maybe mistaken.

If you honestly think we can attract talent that other teams are after by offering a competitive wage on a £6 Million budget then as I said I love your optimism.

The only official audit of Championship wages was done in 2006 and the average wage was 4K a week, for comparison the average premiership wage was 13K.
I would argue that this has obviously increased massively in the past 4 years certainly more than the 1-2K you are proposing. But obviously I hope you are right and I'm way off.
The wage bill we are aiming for is £6M although that might just be an target and I hope that is really competitive in order to attract a manager like SoD.

 

[beightonblade]

Looks like nowts happening........... i've just had a look on Sheffield's Councils web site and can't find any new planning applications for McCabe !

 

[LouTheBlade]

Fair enough Lou, I think you maybe mistaken.

If you honestly think we can attract talent that other teams are after by offering a competitive wage on a £6 Million budget then as I said I love your optimism.

The only official audit of Championship wages was done in 2006 and the average wage was 4K a week, for comparison the average premiership wage was 13K.
I would argue that this has obviously increased massively in the past 4 years certainly more than the 1-2K you are proposing. But obviously I hope you are right and I'm way off.
The wage bill we are aiming for is £6M although that might just be an target and I hope that is really competitive in order to attract a manager like SoD.

It's just my estimation, based on what I know. I could be slightly off, but I can't imagine by much.

I think we can attract decent players on that, I really do. If as I suggested, we go for a squad of say 23 - not all of them will be paid up to 5k. We will probably sign a few younger players, perhaps some from the lower leagues so a handful of our squad are likely to be on 2-3k a week (hypothetical situation). If that were the case then you have room to manoeuvre and attract a couple of household names for 7-8k a week. I am just using numbers and logic there. By household names I'm talking seasoned CCC players, nothing flash. Maybe a Nicky Maynard or a Neil Danns for example. Just to suggest the calibre I would be looking at.

It may well have increased Bob but I can't imagine by that much. I don't mean to sound argumentative and I completely accept that you may be closer to the truth than myself regarding certain issues, including the financial situation at the club. But I fail to see how a £6M budget isn't competitive at this level. I am actually delighted that despite our cost cutting, we can still work on that sort of budget. Its transfer fees I'm worried about to be honest.

I respect your opinions Bob and I always find your posts insightful, but I disagree with you on this I'm afraid bud.

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

Nothing wrong with a bit of healthy disagreement, it's all good Lou. I think in the hands of a decent manager a £6Million wage budget should be competitive.

Let's just hope you are right I honestly hope you are.

 

[munksyb]

I'm hoping for a realism check regarding transfer fees & salaries this summer.

Teams coming down like Hull / Portsmouth / West Ham, will NOT be splashing the cash, they haven't got any.

The likes of Cardiff could also go bust,

West Brom going up will probably do what they did before, make do & see what happens.

Will Leicester / Swansea / Forest / Derby / Blackpool / Preston be spending big , I doubt it very much.

So excluding Premiership clubs ( who lean heavily on the foreign legions, I think there will be more realistic dealings as far as transfers & wages are concerned, so I dont think a reduced budget will be a huge concern.
We just have to bite the bullet & get rid of the high wage earners ( or re-negotiate their contracts, to a more sensible level ), and I think we will be far better off than most in the CCC to recruit the better players.

 

[Foxy]

Not sure how contract renewal plans are going, but as far as I'm aware here is the current state of our squad (may have missed some):

Goalkeepers:

Ian Bennett - Out of contract at end of season (had heard rumours about a coaching role however)
Paddy Kenny - Contracted till end of 2011
Mihkel Aksalu - Contracted till end of 2012

Defenders:

Gary Naysmith - Out of contract at end of season
Chris Morgan - Contracted till end of 2011
Andy Taylor - Contracted till end of 2012
Jordan Stewart - Contracted till end of 2011
Derek Geary - Out of contract at end of season
Jonathan Fortune - Out of contract at end of season
Phil Roe - Out of contract at end of season

Midfield:
Ryan France - Contracted till end of 2011
Nick Montgomery - Out of contract at end of season
Mark Yeates - Contracted till end of 2012
Lee Williamson - Contracted till end of 2012
James Harper - Out of contract at end of season
Glen Little - Out of contract at end of season
Stephen Quinn - Contracted till end of 2011 + an extra year option
Kyel Reid - Out of contract at end of season

Strikers:

Darius Henderson - Contracted till end of 2012
Ched Evans - Contracted till end of 2012
Richard Cresswell - Contracted till end of 2013
Jamie Ward - Contracted till end of 2012
Henri Camara - Out of contract at end of season
Billy Sharp - Contracted till end of 2011

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

Cracking job Foxy, out of those who has signed in the last 9 months and therefore onto the new budget?

Yeates, Kenny, and Cresswell?

I would love to know what our current wage bill is through the summer. It must be no more than a couple of million.

 

[Latters]

According to Sky Sports when we signed him Reid was on a 2 year deal?

 

[norfolkblade]

Not sure how contract renewal plans are going, but as far as I'm aware here is the current state of our squad (may have missed some):

Goalkeepers:

Ian Bennett - Out of contract at end of season (had heard rumours about a coaching role however)
Paddy Kenny - Contracted till end of 2011
Mihkel Aksalu - Contracted till end of 2012

Defenders:

Gary Naysmith - Out of contract at end of season
Chris Morgan - Contracted till end of 2011
Andy Taylor - Contracted till end of 2012
Jordan Stewart - Contracted till end of 2011
Derek Geary - Out of contract at end of season
Jonathan Fortune - Out of contract at end of season
Phil Roe - Out of contract at end of season

Midfield:
Ryan France - Contracted till end of 2011
Nick Montgomery - Out of contract at end of season
Mark Yeates - Contracted till end of 2012
Lee Williamson - Contracted till end of 2012
James Harper - Out of contract at end of season
Glen Little - Out of contract at end of season
Stephen Quinn - Contracted till end of 2011
Kyel Reid - Out of contract at end of season

Strikers:

Darius Henderson - Contracted till end of 2012
Ched Evans - Contracted till end of 2012
Richard Cresswell - Contracted till end of 2013
Jamie Ward - Contracted till end of 2012
Henri Camara - Out of contract at end of season
Billy Sharp - Contracted till end of 2011

That striking line up has massive potential if we can use it properly next season!

On the out of contract players...
- Naysmith owes us a season at least after being out all this season
- Would like to keep Henri Camara, James Harper and Monty
- Kyel Reid wasn't good enough, so can go elsewhere
- Glen Little is an old man now, and his salary would be better spent on someone else
- Let Bennett become a coach - saves on recruitment costs, and we wouldn't get owt for him anyway now
- Del is too much of a risk with injuries, again salary would be better spent elsewhere
- Fortune has rarely featured - let him go
- Never seen Phil Roe play so can't comment on him

Contracted until 2011...
- Billy Sharp must stay, that is obvious
- The sooner Stewart goes, the better
- Pretty sure Morgs will get an extension
- Ryan France can go in the summer, what's he contributed?
- Paddy owes us for keeping him on while banned, many clubs would have got rid
- If Quinny wants to leave, get whatever we can for him in the summer

As for the rest...
- Andy Taylor can go
- I don't think Wardy will even be here come 2012
- Keep Williamson - excellent player
- Still undecided on Yeates, I see him atm as more of an impact sub than a regular starter

 

[Sothall_Blade]

Not sure how contract renewal plans are going, but as far as I'm aware here is the current state of our squad (may have missed some):

Goalkeepers:

Ian Bennett - Out of contract at end of season (had heard rumours about a coaching role however)
Paddy Kenny - Contracted till end of 2011
Mihkel Aksalu - Contracted till end of 2012

Defenders:

Gary Naysmith - Out of contract at end of season
Chris Morgan - Contracted till end of 2011
Andy Taylor - Contracted till end of 2012
Jordan Stewart - Contracted till end of 2011
Derek Geary - Out of contract at end of season
Jonathan Fortune - Out of contract at end of season
Phil Roe - Out of contract at end of season

Midfield:
Ryan France - Contracted till end of 2011
Nick Montgomery - Out of contract at end of season
Mark Yeates - Contracted till end of 2012
Lee Williamson - Contracted till end of 2012
James Harper - Out of contract at end of season
Glen Little - Out of contract at end of season
Stephen Quinn - Contracted till end of 2011
Kyel Reid - Out of contract at end of season

Strikers:

Darius Henderson - Contracted till end of 2012
Ched Evans - Contracted till end of 2012
Richard Cresswell - Contracted till end of 2013
Jamie Ward - Contracted till end of 2012
Henri Camara - Out of contract at end of season
Billy Sharp - Contracted till end of 2011

Assuming that's right we will start with a squad of 14 contracted players, in which case why does Blackwell state on the official site that "this time I will start (rebuilding) with only nine or ten players". Which 4 or 5 contracted players has he mentally written off?

 

[norfolkblade]

Assuming that's right we will start with a squad of 14 contracted players, in which case why does Blackwell state on the official site that "this time I will start (rebuilding) with only nine or ten players". Which 4 or 5 contracted players has he mentally written off?

My guess at his 4 will be:
Taylor
Stewart
France
Billy