Physical vs skilful line up

[Bergen Blade]

Looking at the pigs team that beat Chesterfield one obvious thing about them is their height. Along with Stoke they must be the tallest side in the league.

Should DW try to match them in the strength department, knowing that it'll be a scrappy derby game where strength and determination may count more than skill? Or should he try to spring a surprise with his line up and try to outplay them with more skill, better passing and better movement?

Would you like to see:

Physical line up:

Simonsen
Lowton Maguire Collins Jean-Francois
Cresswell Monty Doyle Quinn
Evans Porter​

OR:

Skilful/good movement line up:

Simonsen
Lowton Maguire Collins Williams
Williamson Monty
Flynn - - - - Quinn - - - - Tønne
Evans​

 

[dingledog]

I don't care so long as we kick the shit out of them....oops, physical for me then.

 

[Kempy]

Looking at the pigs team that beat Chesterfield one obvious thing about them is their height. Along with Stoke they must be the tallest side in the league.

Should DW try to match them in the strength department, knowing that it'll be a scrappy derby game where strength and determination may count more than skill? Or should he try to spring a surprise with his line up and try to outplay them with more skill, better passing and better movement?

Would you like to see:

Physical line up:

Simonsen
Lowton Maguire Collins Jean-Francois
Cresswell Monty Doyle Quinn
Evans Porter​

OR:

Skilful/good movement line up:

Simonsen
Lowton Maguire Collins Williams
Williamson Monty
Flynn - - - - Quinn - - - - Tønne
Evans​

Could easily see your physical side being put out on sat. However Evans is in no way a physical player, complete pussy.

If pratt signs he may make a debut, I'll be annoyed if Tonne isn't in the squad for Saturday... still doesn’t change the fact that whatever the line-up I have no confidence in it at all, with the inability to defend or finish. I’m still hoping however that i’ll be pleasantly surprised and we stuff the piggy bastards

 

[DuncDisorderly]

Imo, it will be a physical battle. The piggies style makes that inevitable, and we will have to match them. Monty and Doyle in the middle for me...

 

[Revolution]

Imo, it will be a physical battle. The piggies style makes that inevitable, and we will have to match them. Monty and Doyle in the middle for me...

Scrappy midgets to the rescue!

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

What's wrong with McDonald, have I missed something ?

 

[beechblade]

Why not a combination of both?

Personally I don't think Doyle offers us enough physically and much rather see McDonald for his size there, a CM partnership of Monty and Doyle offers us next to nothing height wise and next to nothing with off the ball movement whilst in possesion.

I'd be more inclined to play

Simmo

Lowton Magiure Collins Williams

Monty

*Phillips--------McDonald-------Tonne/Flynn

Quinn

Evans ​

* If Phillips has signed use him at RM, if not shove Flynn there and have Tonne on the left.

I'd like to see Quinn used in a free flowing role behind Evans. And we certainly shouldn't use this formation as lump it up front one. I think however Wilson is a 4-4-2 man at heart, so I'd like to see a new striker come in to partner Evans up front and then maybe shove Quinn back on the left midfield, if he doesn't employ the formation above.

 

[Bergen Blade]

What's wrong with McDonald, have I missed something ?

No, just wanted to set up to contrasting teams. Despite his height, he missed out of the physical teams because Monty/Doyle is more typical battling midfielders. In the other team I think Williamson (on form/motivated) makes better forward runs and is more likely to get goals and assists, necessary if we're going for the Barcelona style.

Of course there's the option of trying to include a bit of both, but isn't that what we've been trying the last couple of weeks? Maybe this vital derby is the time for a certain change where a carefully selected line up suits a clearly defined strategy? Outfight or outplay them?

 

[beechblade]

No, just wanted to set up to contrasting teams. Despite his height, he missed out of the physical teams because Monty/Doyle is more typical battling midfielders. In the other team I think Williamson (on form/motivated) makes better forward runs and is more likely to get goals and assists, necessary if we're going for the Barcelona style.

Of course there's the option of trying to include a bit of both, but isn't that what we've been trying the last couple of weeks? Maybe this vital derby is the time for a certain change where a carefully selected line up suits a clearly defined strategy? Outfight or outplay them?

I wouldn't necessarily say we have been going for both, Willo looks completely out of place out wide and he looks like he can't be arsred at times when in the middle, McDonald (albeit I haven't seen his worst games) has always looked to be the more willing of the two, his vision is better and his short game is. Willo on form can be a game winner but I haven't seen it this seasoe from him in the home matches (I was working the Walsal match.)

The problem for me is when things haven't gone our way via miss chances our heads have dropped and we've gone away from our pattern of play, i.e being very flowing with good movement. To back to last season flat footed and unwilling to be in possesion of the ball.

I think in total fairness the team is still adjusting to the style and think we should certainly look at our fringe players a bit more, maybe the likes of Tonne and Flynn getting a start over Williamson and Doyle, may give these players the kick up the arse they've needed in the past few weeks.

 

[Rudders]

I don't think you can outplay an opposition team if you don't have the ball. You need to earn the right to play first. I think that your skilful line up would be over-run - it would also end up being a 4-5-1 with no support for Evans (this happens in every game Utd try to play like this). Having Creswell on the right of midfield is a waste. Surely we should be picking the team style and tactics that best suits the players that we have, thus maximising resources.

 

[Bergen Blade]

I wouldn't necessarily say we have been going for both, Willo looks completely out of place out wide and he looks like he can't be arsred at times when in the middle, McDonald (albeit I haven't seen his worst games) has always looked to be the more willing of the two, his vision is better and his short game is. Willo on form can be a game winner but I haven't seen it this seasoe from him in the home matches (I was working the Walsal match.)

The problem for me is when things haven't gone our way via miss chances our heads have dropped and we've gone away from our pattern of play, i.e being very flowing with good movement. To back to last season flat footed and unwilling to be in possesion of the ball.

I think in total fairness the team is still adjusting to the style and think we should certainly look at our fringe players a bit more, maybe the likes of Tonne and Flynn getting a start over Williamson and Doyle, may give these players the kick up the arse they've needed in the past few weeks.

Beech, compared to my second team example, your team includes just the change of McDonald for Williamson (and Phillips who I'd included as well had he signed by now), so I think that you have chosen a skilful team that is designed to outplay the wendy giants. It is a clear directional change from the Rotherham line up that had Cresswell on the wing and Porter up front. More width, more pace, more skill, you have given DW your advice.

 

[beechblade]

Beech, compared to my second team example, your team includes just the change of McDonald for Williamson (and Phillips who I'd included as well had he signed by now), so I think that you have chosen a skilful team that is designed to outplay the wendy giants. It is a clear directional change from the Rotherham line up that had Cresswell on the wing and Porter up front. More width, more pace, more skill, you have given DW your advice.

McDonald has also done the physical side pretty well and has made a few good tackles so thats the physical side I also meant, the bit of both. Willo has given little in this side of the game. But I'd also have Monty in an actual defensive midfielder role as well, so we can get the full backs pushing up to aid in attack more, without losing the defensive cover, something that has been exposed at times with Lowton and JFL getting caught out of position. (Can't really show the style I mean with out a white board and wet marker.)

It's easy for us to say more pace and more skill like so many of us have, but we do have some of these type of players available and I wish we'd use them more in the correct positions rather than playing center mid's out wide.

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

I know this is moving slightly away from Berg's point but as I've posted elsewhere, with only 5 subs, or 4 and a keeper, IMO we can't afford to have Monty, Doyle and McDonald in the squad if we're going to do anything in this league. Yes, it would be safety first and would make us potentially more solid but as Udders and Charlton have shown us recently, if the better teams soak up the pressure, we've little in terms of changing things if they go wrong. With any two of those starting and the other on the bench, it's one less spot for Tonne, Philliskirk etc and let's be honest, are any of the three going to come on and change the game if required ?

Of the three, McDonald is a must for me, gives us a height, can track back and tackle but is also the only one of the three who can consistently find a red and white shirt.

 

[Sothall_Blade]

I would play:-
Simonsen
Lowton Collins Maguire Lescinel
Phillips McDonald Monty Quinn
Evans Porter
Subs:- Long, Williams, Flynn, Tonne, Creswell

That's a side with only two small(er) players, so they should be able to stand up to the physical challenge and threat from set pieces.
Phillips will provide some much needed pace and skill if he signs.
I'd like a similar player up front but we don't have one, so I'd stick with the recent strike partnership.
This isn't a game for gambling on untried players and formations.
One thing I do like about our side is that we have four "local" players who've come up through the ranks while I think Wednesday have none.
That's helped us to win in the past, even when we weren't necessarily the best team (Bradshaw, Ward, Whitehouse, Hoyland etc).

 

[Ollessendro]

Looking at the pigs team that beat Chesterfield one obvious thing about them is their height. Along with Stoke they must be the tallest side in the league.

Should DW try to match them in the strength department, knowing that it'll be a scrappy derby game where strength and determination may count more than skill? Or should he try to spring a surprise with his line up and try to outplay them with more skill, better passing and better movement?

Would you like to see:

Physical line up:

Simonsen
Lowton Maguire Collins Jean-Francois
Cresswell Monty Doyle Quinn
Evans Porter​

OR:

Skilful/good movement line up:

Simonsen
Lowton Maguire Collins Williams
Williamson Monty
Flynn - - - - Quinn - - - - Tønne
Evans​

Interesting post Bergs. Are you coming over for the game this weekend?

This is a really tricky one for Wilson. If he plays Monty and Doyle at home and we concede and worse lose, then he'll be crucified. Plus, will Monty and Doyle offer protection from Wednesday's 'physicality'? Corners and set pieces are a real worry for me and Monty/Doyle will offer little here. Wednesday will be putting the big lads in the box and putting the ball in the 6 yard box and on top of Simmo. Major concern. I understand the argument for packing out the midfield and giving them little. It worked away at Oldham, Yeovil etc, but at home (where we are expected to attack) and against Wednesday (a better team, in from and our arch rivals) it seems dicey. Suddenly midfield is not looking so strong with Williamson out of form/not interested, McDonald struggling to get his foot on the ball recently, McAllister disappeared and Monty and Doyle limited. The way McDonald struggled to get his foot oon the ball at Wycombe and seemingly against Charlton is a major concern. Then again, he (more so than the rest) has the ability to create something. The other problem with a Monty/Doyle partnership is you need creativity in other places. We don't have an answer out right and Quinn is cutting inside too often and has lost form.

I would play:

Simonsen
Lowton Maguire Collins Jean-Francois
Flynn Monty McDonald Quinn
Evans Cresswell[/CENTER]

 

[stannyblade]

Why should we be changing to combat them? Are they Barca in disguise?

We are the home team and as such should(Isay should) set the style and tempo. Sheridan says Chezzy played them off the pitch saturday.
For me one thing will determine if we win or not and that is how many chances we actually take. Every game I have seen this season we could easily had 4 or 5 goals (including Huddersfield and Charlton) but we are not taking enough

PLEASE GOD LET THIS BE THE GAME IT ALL COMES RIGHT

COYRAWW

 

[beechblade]

I know this is moving slightly away from Berg's point but as I've posted elsewhere, with only 5 subs, or 4 and a keeper, IMO we can't afford to have Monty, Doyle and McDonald in the squad if we're going to do anything in this league. Yes, it would be safety first and would make us potentially more solid but as Udders and Charlton have shown us recently, if the better teams soak up the pressure, we've little in terms of changing things if they go wrong. With any two of those starting and the other on the bench, it's one less spot for Tonne, Philliskirk etc and let's be honest, are any of the three going to come on and change the game if required ?

Of the three, McDonald is a must for me, gives us a height, can track back and tackle but is also the only one of the three who can consistently find a red and white shirt.

Who would you play alongside McDonald, Quinn or McAllister?

Simmo

Lowton Maguire Collins Williams

Flynn McDonald McAllister Quinn

Evans Cresswell​

I wouldn't be too disappointed seeing this team with a bench of Long Parrino/JFL Tonne, Philliskirk, Monty.

Sort of a team we saw at one point though I feel we used McAllister in the wrong way and he was left supporting defence rather than pressing up supporting the attack.

 

[stannyblade]

Simmo
Lowton Maguire Collins Williams
Phillips(if signed) McDonald Mcallister Flynn
Evans Quinn
Subs
Long Tonne LJF Philliskirk Cresswell

The ball must be played on deck to Quinn who will drop back to get the ball and roam around as he fulfills his tag as THE GINGER MESSI

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

Who would you play alongside McDonald, Quinn or McAllister?

Simmo

Lowton Maguire Collins Williams

Flynn McDonald McAllister Quinn

Evans Cresswell​

I wouldn't be too disappointed seeing this team with a bench of Long Parrino/JFL Tonne, Philliskirk, Monty.

Sort of a team we saw at one point though I feel we used McAllister in the wrong way and he was left supporting defence rather than pressing up supporting the attack.

This is probably the key position at the mo beech. I thought McAllister would be the one to watch this season but he seems to do well as a sub, start the next game and then disappear so I'm not sure. Willo seems a better player coming on as a sub and as documented too many times than I care to mention, Bodie or Doyle, whilst doing an OK job this season, aren't going to drive the midfield on to greater things.

I hope we bring Phillips in as he will add something we're missing and Squinny is a cert for the left but as for McD's partner, it's a toss of several coins and see which one lands heads.

 

[beechblade]

This is probably the key position at the mo beech. I thought McAllister would be the one to watch this season but he seems to do well as a sub, start the next game and then disappear so I'm not sure. Willo seems a better player coming on as a sub and as documented too many times than I care to mention, Bodie or Doyle, whilst doing an OK job this season, aren't going to drive the midfield on to greater things.

I hope we bring Phillips in as he will add something we're missing and Squinny is a cert for the left but as for McD's partner, it's a toss of several coins and see which one lands heads.

I know what you mean about McAllister but I still think its the way we played him more than anything, under Adams in the game he played he was allowed to roam near the box on corners, where he hit his stunning first for us and had other opportunties, this season he was left to cover the back, as we pushed Doyle forward, and Collins and Maguire for the added height, he also wasn't driving forward as much as Doyle. Yet when he comes on as a sub and has the role to play around more freely he seems to be the player we saw in his brief spell last season.

I hope the rumours that we have brought in Phillips are also true as well.

 

[Railway Blade]

Of the three, McDonald is a must for me, gives us a height, can track back and tackle but is also the only one of the three who can consistently find a red and white shirt

I must have missed the games or had my eyes shut when he tracked back and tackled. He has undoubted ability on the ball but he is unbalancing our side with a complete lack of work rate.

 

[Sothall_Blade]

Why should we be changing to combat them? Are they Barca in disguise?

Bergen is absolutely right about Wednesday being a team of giants. I just looked through their team against Chesterfield and they had 10 six footers plus O’Connor.
That means they could have up to EIGHT six footers in our box at corners and we must be able to combat that threat.
A few people have picked as many as 4 short-arses for this match, which would leave us with the likes of Monty or Williams marking a comparative giant.
I think we need to take this threat seriously as nullifying Wednesday at set pieces will take away their major strength.
I’m not suggesting we choose crap giants ahead of brilliant midgets but there are ways of combating Wednesday’s height without weakening ourselves too much.
Jean-Francois instead of Williams is one obvious example.

 

[Bergen Blade]

Bergen is absolutely right about Wednesday being a team of giants. I just looked through their team against Chesterfield and they had 10 six footers plus O’Connor.
That means they could have up to EIGHT six footers in our box at corners and we must be able to combat that threat.
A few people have picked as many as 4 short-arses for this match, which would leave us with the likes of Monty or Williams marking a comparative giant.
I think we need to take this threat seriously as nullifying Wednesday at set pieces will take away their major strength.
I’m not suggesting we choose crap giants ahead of brilliant midgets but there are ways of combating Wednesday’s height without weakening ourselves too much.
Jean-Francois instead of Williams is one obvious example.

We could also try to have three men forward when they have corners. This would possibly mean they'd leave four players back. With their gk also back and one corner taker we'd have five players to deal with. They would all be 6'3 or more though.

---------- Post added at 05:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:47 PM ----------

Interesting post Bergs. Are you coming over for the game this weekend?

Unfortunately, no. I don't have a very good feeling, but think we have a chance if our tactics on the day is spot on. At the moment I feel our best chance is to play in such a way that will make them uncomfortable, i.e. play with enthusiasm and high tempo, moving the ball faster than they can move their legs and try to get in behind them. Big players often don't like chasing the opposition, but that's what we should force them to do. Defensively I'd want us to press them high up the pitch, be aggressive, and try to make their strikers (who relies on service) isolated. Set pieces aside, their wingers could be their greatest threat. I expect Jermaine Johnson to play on their left and Lowton may need some protection. Marshall on the opposite side, has done well for them and will often swap sides with JJ.

 

[Sothall_Blade]

We could also try to have three men forward when they have corners. This would possibly mean they'd leave four players back. With their gk also back and one corner taker we'd have five players to deal with. They would all be 6'3 or more though

True but if our three men forward included two shorties like Williams and Monty, we're reducing our defensive capability and our ability to catch them on the break.
It's more likely we'd have say Evans, Phillips and Quinn as the three men kept forward which takes two of our few tall players out of the area.
As you say, that means at least 5 of their giants up against potentially Collins, Maguire, Porter, Lowton and Monty with Williams and Doyle on the posts.
That's why I feel the maximum number of shorties we can afford to play is 2 (Quinn and Monty for me).

 

[Sothall_Blade]

True but if our three men forward included two shorties like Williams and Monty, we're reducing our defensive capability and our ability to catch them on the break.
It's more likely we'd have say Evans, Phillips and Quinn as the three men kept forward which takes two of our few tall players out of the area.
As you say, that means at least 5 of their giants up against potentially Collins, Maguire, Porter, Lowton and Monty with Williams and Doyle on the posts.
That's why I feel the maximum number of shorties we can afford to play is 2 (Quinn and Monty for me).

I've changed my mind slightly now we've signed Clarke as we need pace up front just as much as we need height.
My team:-

Simonsen
Lowton Collins Maguire Lescinel
Phillips McDonald Monty Quinn
Evans Clarke
Subs:- Long, Williams, Flynn, Porter, Creswell

 

[Toronto Blade]

Just because you are tall doesn't make you a good header of the ball,I am sure DW will have addressed this and corners should be kept to a minimum.
If all they have to put their hopes on is winning corners they are in trouble.

 

[cooperblade]

Things I'm confident about:

We can get at wednesday's full backs - Quinn and Phillips will present a real test for wednesday, great combination of pace, skill and goalscoring threat from wide areas. This will particularly be the case if wednesday are a bit narrow on one side in midfield as they tend to be. One of our main attacking strengths is that Lowton and LJF/Williams bomb on (lowton often pops up in the centre forward position as well as overlapping) and we can overload wednesday and get at their full backs (especially if Reda Johnson plays there which will be brilliant news for us). This can also help negate the threat of Marshall by forcing him to track back.

Wednesday's centre forwards don't worry me too much in open play - Madine and O'Grady should suit Maguire and Collins down to the ground, particularly given megson's style of 'football'. I keep thinking back to how good Collins looked at Elland Road last season dealing with an aerial bombardment and it brings me great comfort.

Our football can cause massive problems for Jones and Batth - these two aren't the most mobile and i think if we get runners in and around the box and get McDonald on the ball they will struggle.

Things I'm worried about:

We get dragged into playing a more direct game. If we go long, we lose. I don't expect us to win a header all day long in wednesday's half so we've got to pass, pass, pass and stick to it, even if it doesn't start well.

Defending set pieces - we haven't been good at this for a while now, we have an accident waiting to happen in net and it's wednesday's number 1 strength. A huge concern. Think the best we can do is try not to concede many. I'd also take the slightly negative step of picking LJF over Williams - sacrifice a very quick player for one who is very strong in the air (probably go for Cresswell over Clarke for the same reason although Cresswell is liable to lose his man when defending set pieces).

Montgomery not being fully fit - Sure he'll start but we need him to be 100% or very close to it. wednesday will make it a war in the middle of the park and there's going to be a huge burden on Monty to win tackles in there. Quinny will come inside to help but McDonald isn't a tackler and Monty is going to need to work like hell to get Macca on the ball so he can hurt wednesday with his passing.

Marshall on the counter - as I've said, our full backs will bomb on and Marshall will get space to run into. This, for me, is wednesday's main threat in open play. I think we should allow Semedo time on the ball (he's from the Doyle school of passing sideways) and concentrate our midfield numbers on stopping Marshall and Lines.


IF we stick with our passing game and if we can get in front, I think we'll be fine.

 

[Bergen Blade]

Cheers Cooper, think we agree on most things, especially that our best chance is to try to outplay/outpass them.

My thoughts also summed up here: http://scandinavianblades.webs.com/apps/blog/entries/show/9415664-how-to-beat-the-wendy-giants

 

[Toronto Blade]

That first goal is so important,I expect them to attack from the whistle to get the go ahead.
Then they can sit back ,stack the defense get physical and rely on Bywater's long punts to a lone striker.
They will be quite happy to come away from the Lane with a point.