Patience Needed.

[gavtheblade]

What can we do to prevent this happening to us S.D?

 

[lenners]

I really think expecting more out of BDTBL at this time is unreasonable - and IMO the majority of posts on this thread seem to show frustration more than a balanced view.

And if people want to get frustrated - then fine, it's a free world - but it seems a bit daft IMO wasting that frustration on things you/we have little influence over.

On a more concerning note - I look at many clubs where the fans expectations have out-stripped the club's reality, and this has led to years of instability (changes of management in particular) and under-performance. Wednesday, Forest, Leeds, Coventry all spring to mind as clubs where this has happened - and reading many of the posts I worry that we're well along the same road. It's all good and well banging on about ambition, when it's some other buggers money you want to be ambitious with!

One year out of 17 in the top flight.
Let's rein in those expectations boys.

 

[GRUMPY BLADE]

Sorry gals and boys it's not patience we need, it's a new manager.

£14M down the pisser.

 

[Santos]

One year out of 17 in the top flight.
Let's rein in those expectations boys.

4 years out of the last 20 innit?

 

[Highbury_Blade]

4 years out of the last 20 innit?

And at least 5 of those years we were in no shape to get promoted to the top flight.

 

[lenners]

4 years out of the last 20 innit?

No, it's five years out of 35.
And we have numpties talking about unrealistic expectations.
It's not unrealistic to expect a bit better than that.

 

[Foxy]

No, it's five years out of 35.
And we have numpties talking about unrealistic expectations.
It's not unrealistic to expect a bit better than that.

Actually, doesn't your stat kind of support the fact that it is?

Or are you mixing up hopes with expectations?

 

[lenners]

Actually, doesn't your stat kind of support the fact that it is?

Or are you mixing up hopes with expectations?

Of course.
There is absolutely no way we should compare our performance with any other club in the league.
We should remember we exist in a special bubble of crapness, unrelated to the outside world.

 

[Foxy]

Of course.
There is absolutely no way we should compare our performance with any other club in the league.
We should remember we exist in a special bubble of crapness, unrelated to the outside world.

So even though we are pretty much performing as we always have, you regularly tell us how crap we are and how we are going to get beat, we have the worst management ever in the entire history of football, we should expect to be Manchester United?

We can hope, aspire and try to be better but what can we really expect and why?

 

[Revolution]

So even though we are pretty much performing as we always have, you regularly tell us how crap we are and how we are going to get beat, we have the worst management ever in the entire history of football, we should expect to be Manchester United?

We aren't performing as we always have. We've spent only 1 season out of the last 16 in the top flight. That's the worst such period on our history.

Or, if you prefer, we have spent only 1 season in the last decade in the top flight. That's the second worst performance by decade ever, after the 1980s.

This extended hanging around in the second tier, just missing promotion or the playoffs, is something the club has never done for more than 3 or 4 years at a time before. For a big city club, it is mediocre performance, and without any doubt a decline from our historical position.

And that Man Utd stuff is a strawman. Len made no such argument.

 

[Foxy]

And that Man Utd stuff is a strawman. Len made no such argument.

I thought we were comparing ourselves with other clubs?

 

[Revolution]

I thought we were comparing ourselves with other clubs?

You know full well what he meant.

 

[Grecian2000]

So even though we are pretty much performing as we always have

Hmmm, that depends how old you are.

As I've said before, it's an age thing. If all you're used to is us being a low grade second tier team playing desperate football then it's a lot easier to be happy with seasons such as last.
This idea that that's as good as we should be is anathema to those of us who have seen us being far better than that.

 

[lenners]

So even though we are pretty much performing as we always have, you regularly tell us how crap we are and how we are going to get beat, we have the worst management ever in the entire history of football, we should expect to be Manchester United?

We can hope, aspire and try to be better but what can we really expect and why?

You want to reconsider any of that?
In terms of performance over the last 30 years, no club in the country has underperformed as badly as we have.
Them's just the facts of the matter.

 

[lenners]

I thought we were comparing ourselves with other clubs?

Er, yes. I think you've got it.

 

[Foxy]

I thought we were comparing ourselves with other clubs?

You know full well what he meant.

Which other clubs are we allowed to compare with then? because there are an awful lot below us who think its an unrealistic expectation to be like us.

I may have pushed it a bit far with "performing as we always have", but the point still remains, for most of our more recent history it's not too far from the norm.

How many years do we go back to choose our level of expectation? people mock the Pigs, Forest, Leeds for mentioning the longer term past, why should we have expectations based on it?

My basic point is, we can expect very little and hope for more.

You want to reconsider any of that?
In terms of performance over the last 30 years, no club in the country has underperformed as badly as we have.
Them's just the facts of the matter.

How long can we underperform for before it actually becomes our natural level? I'm sure there are people all over the country who think their club have been underperforming for more than 30 years.

 

[lenners]

Which other clubs are we allowed to compare with then? because there are an awful lot below us who think its an unrealistic expectation to be like us.

I may have pushed it a bit far with "performing as we always have", but the point still remains, for most of our more recent history it's not too far from the norm.

How many years do we go back to choose our level of expectation? people mock the Pigs, Forest, Leeds for mentioning the longer term past, why should we have expectations based on it?

My basic point is, we can expect very little and hope for more.



How long can we underperform for before it actually becomes our natural level? I'm sure there are people all over the country who think their club have been underperforming for more than 30 years.

When judging performance, one tends to use reasonable, comparable data.
Although this stops some way short of rocket science.

 

[Nick Jansky]

I don't think anybody would doubt for a moment that this club has seriously underperformed. But constantly pissing & moaning about it on an internet forum like a broken record does precisely zero to help matters. If you really want to be of any use whatsoever why don't you organise & do something about it, like BIFA did in the 90s? You might attract some respect then.

Oh no, being a keyboard warrior is far easier than actually doing something constructive, isn't it?

 

[Highbury_Blade]

Where's that goddamn thanks button when you need it?

 

[Foxy]

When judging performance, one tends to use reasonable, comparable data.
Although this stops some way short of rocket science.

Are we about to have a lenners point with some substance?

Or do we have to find the reasonable, comparable data ourselves?

 

[lenners]

Are we about to have a lenners point with some substance?

Or do we have to find the reasonable, comparable data ourselves?

I do believe reasonable, comparable data has already been presented at various junctures on this very site.

 

[Foxy]

I do believe reasonable, comparable data has already been presented at various junctures on this very site.

It's generally more what we are apparently doing wrong (more often than not before the wrong has actually happened) than reasonable data comparing us with others.

Which is why i'm interested to see the data which shows we are underperforming and should reasonably expect a lot more, data on this, like in the season ticket sales example, often leads to much more worthwhile discussion than the normal "I'm right because I say so"

 

[Nick Jansky]

I do believe reasonable, comparable data has already been presented at various junctures on this very site.

So are you actually going to do anything about it other than repeating yourself on here like a toddler with OCD? Yes or no? Because you serve no purpose on here whatsoever.

 

[lenners]

So are you actually going to do anything about it other than repeating yourself on here like a toddler with OCD? Yes or no? Because you serve no purpose on here whatsoever.

Steady on, you'll be calling me a FUDDER next.

 

[Nick Jansky]

Steady on, you'll be calling me a FUDDER next.

Is that a yes or a no?

 

[Bayingblade]

Steady on, you'll be calling me a FUDDER next.

I'm sure you've been called worse, Len. So are you going to DO anything as Nick asks? Are you? You could start by answering his question. YES or NO??

 

[Bramley]

I don't think anybody would doubt for a moment that this club has seriously underperformed. But constantly pissing & moaning about it on an internet forum like a broken record does precisely zero to help matters. If you really want to be of any use whatsoever why don't you organise & do something about it, like BIFA did in the 90s? You might attract some respect then.

Oh no, being a keyboard warrior is far easier than actually doing something constructive, isn't it?

AGREED. Well said that man. Christ, put your energy to something constructive...

 

[Sothall_Blade]

It's generally more what we are apparently doing wrong (more often than not before the wrong has actually happened) than reasonable data comparing us with others.

Which is why i'm interested to see the data which shows we are underperforming and should reasonably expect a lot more, data on this, like in the season ticket sales example, often leads to much more worthwhile discussion than the normal "I'm right because I say so"

Darren did a lot of research into this and presented his findings on this thread:- http://www.s24su.com/showthread.php?15513-Under-achievement-Index&highlight=attendance

To cut a long story short he concluded that we along with Derby are the biggest under-achievers in the last 34 years. (Derby who won 2 league titles and reached a European Cup Semi Final just before the 1976 cut-off point!).
I don't think anybody can seriously argue that we haven't underachieved based on the size of club/city/history/tradition etc..
Birch is referring to being patient this Summer and Lenners is obviously making the point that waiting more than 85 years for a trophy has required a reasonable amount of patience already from United fans.
I don't expect us to have tied up loads of signings at this point but I do expect a few before pre-season starts and many more before the transfer window closes.
I'm happy that we're keeping our targets a secret but I expect that to change when the club start to sell a few and want to show how "ambitious" they're being (a la Smith, McIndoe, Surman).
All we want from United is a) Don't sell our best players. b) Instead, tie them up on new contracts before their value starts to diminish and we're forced to sell c) Sign a few permanent players who are going to stick around for a while and we can build up a rapport with. d) Bring a few youngsters through and don't flog them when the first offer comes in.
Is that too much to ask? Probably...

 

[parisblade]

When judging performance, one tends to use reasonable, comparable data.
Although this stops some way short of rocket science.

Haha, haven't been on here in ages and the first thread I read talks of rocket science Now where's the "stuck record" reference...

 

[beightonblade]

We tried for one or two BUT..............
We tried tokeep him/them BUT..........

same owd................................