Our "wingers"

[Bergen Blade]

Using his regular 4-4-2 formation, Adkins played Coutts and Flynn in the wide positions against Doncaster. But how wide are they? Quite often - not very.


Let's look at one passage of play:

It seems like we're going nowhere, Basham even points to Edgar and wants Baxter to pass it back to him:



But Baxter has the composure to hold on to the ball for a second. With the skill to sidestep the Doncaster midfielder and the accuracy of his pass, Baxter finds Coutts in some space.


Coutts has time and space to pick a pass. His through ball finds Sammon who very nearly scores.




This is quite different to traditional wing play, where wingers stayed wide, looked to get on the ball, take on their full back and put crosses into the box.

The shape of our midfield in this situation is more like a box with all four very central. On the attack - our formation has been described as 4-2-2-2:



But even this isn't quite accurate, as it doesn't include the movement of the full backs, very often more advanced than even the two "wide", or attacking midfielders.

(This is why formations should primarily describe how a team lines up defensively when the opposition have the ball. On the attack it gets too complicated.)



The above situation certainly got too complicated for Doncaster. They couldn't figure out who was supposed to deal with Coutts.

Coutts position was right midfield. Normally the opposition left back deals with him. But when Coutts is so deep, so central, it makes less sense for him to break out of the defensive line and push up to challenge him.

So what about the opposition left midfielder? Left midfielders traditionally keep an eye on the opposition right back. And as can be seen, Alcock (white circle) is bombing forward on that side, forcing said midfielder to stay wide and track him. Even though Alcock doesn't get the ball, his run may have been vital in letting Coutts get time and space on the ball.


Summary: Our "wingers" will probably be staying less wide than previously. Our full backs may be the ones who provide real width.

 

[Rodley]

Every post an education!!

 

[BushBlade]

Using his regular 4-4-2 formation, Adkins played Coutts and Flynn in the wide positions against Doncaster. But how wide are they? Quite often - not very.


Let's look at one passage of play:

It seems like we're going nowhere, Basham even points to Edgar and wants Baxter to pass it back to him:
View attachment 13572


But Baxter has the composure to hold on to the ball for a second. With the skill to sidestep the Doncaster midfielder and the accuracy of his pass, Baxter finds Coutts in some space.
View attachment 13574

Coutts has time and space to pick a pass. His through ball finds Sammon who very nearly scores.
View attachment 13575



This is quite different to traditional wing play, where wingers stayed wide, looked to get on the ball, take on their full back and put crosses into the box.

The shape of our midfield in this situation is more like a box with all four very central. On the attack - our formation has been described as 4-2-2-2:

View attachment 13576

But even this isn't quite accurate, as it doesn't include the movement of the full backs, very often more advanced than even the two "wide", or attacking midfielders.

(This is why formations should primarily describe how a team lines up defensively when the opposition have the ball. On the attack it gets too complicated.)



The above situation certainly got too complicated for Doncaster. They couldn't figure out who was supposed to deal with Coutts.View attachment 13577

Coutts position was right midfield. Normally the opposition left back deals with him. But when Coutts is so deep, so central, it makes less sense for him to break out of the defensive line and push up to challenge him.

So what about the opposition left midfielder? Left midfielders traditionally keep an eye on the opposition right back. And as can be seen, Alcock (white circle) is bombing forward on that side, forcing said midfielder to stay wide and track him. Even though Alcock doesn't get the ball, his run may have been vital in letting Coutts get time and space on the ball.


Summary: Our "wingers" will probably be staying less wide than previously. Our full backs may be the ones who provide real width.

Cracking post Bergen.

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

Every post an education!!

Even better if you imagine them delivered in a Norwegian accent. Adds whole new levels of authority and sophistication

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

Using his regular 4-4-2 formation, Adkins played Coutts and Flynn in the wide positions against Doncaster. But how wide are they? Quite often - not very.


Let's look at one passage of play:

It seems like we're going nowhere, Basham even points to Edgar and wants Baxter to pass it back to him:
View attachment 13572


But Baxter has the composure to hold on to the ball for a second. With the skill to sidestep the Doncaster midfielder and the accuracy of his pass, Baxter finds Coutts in some space.
View attachment 13574

Coutts has time and space to pick a pass. His through ball finds Sammon who very nearly scores.
View attachment 13575



This is quite different to traditional wing play, where wingers stayed wide, looked to get on the ball, take on their full back and put crosses into the box.

The shape of our midfield in this situation is more like a box with all four very central. On the attack - our formation has been described as 4-2-2-2:

View attachment 13576

But even this isn't quite accurate, as it doesn't include the movement of the full backs, very often more advanced than even the two "wide", or attacking midfielders.

(This is why formations should primarily describe how a team lines up defensively when the opposition have the ball. On the attack it gets too complicated.)



The above situation certainly got too complicated for Doncaster. They couldn't figure out who was supposed to deal with Coutts.View attachment 13577

Coutts position was right midfield. Normally the opposition left back deals with him. But when Coutts is so deep, so central, it makes less sense for him to break out of the defensive line and push up to challenge him.

So what about the opposition left midfielder? Left midfielders traditionally keep an eye on the opposition right back. And as can be seen, Alcock (white circle) is bombing forward on that side, forcing said midfielder to stay wide and track him. Even though Alcock doesn't get the ball, his run may have been vital in letting Coutts get time and space on the ball.


Summary: Our "wingers" will probably be staying less wide than previously. Our full backs may be the ones who provide real width.

Many thanks.

 

[SouthEssexBlade]

Using his regular 4-4-2 formation, Adkins played Coutts and Flynn in the wide positions against Doncaster. But how wide are they? Quite often - not very.


Let's look at one passage of play:

It seems like we're going nowhere, Basham even points to Edgar and wants Baxter to pass it back to him:
View attachment 13572




But Baxter has the composure to hold on to the ball for a second. With the skill to sidestep the Doncaster midfielder and the accuracy of his pass, Baxter finds Coutts in some space.
View attachment 13574

Coutts has time and space to pick a pass. His through ball finds Sammon who very nearly scores.
View attachment 13575



This is quite different to traditional wing play, where wingers stayed wide, looked to get on the ball, take on their full back and put crosses into the box.

The shape of our midfield in this situation is more like a box with all four very central. On the attack - our formation has been described as 4-2-2-2:

View attachment 13576

But even this isn't quite accurate, as it doesn't include the movement of the full backs, very often more advanced than even the two "wide", or attacking midfielders.

(This is why formations should primarily describe how a team lines up defensively when the opposition have the ball. On the attack it gets too complicated.)



The above situation certainly got too complicated for Doncaster. They couldn't figure out who was supposed to deal with Coutts.View attachment 13577

Coutts position was right midfield. Normally the opposition left back deals with him. But when Coutts is so deep, so central, it makes less sense for him to break out of the defensive line and push up to challenge him.

So what about the opposition left midfielder? Left midfielders traditionally keep an eye on the opposition right back. And as can be seen, Alcock (white circle) is bombing forward on that side, forcing said midfielder to stay wide and track him. Even though Alcock doesn't get the ball, his run may have been vital in letting Coutts get time and space on the ball.


Summary: Our "wingers" will probably be staying less wide than previously. Our full backs may be the ones who provide real width.

I've watched the whole game, Bergs. Agree that we've narrowed the midfield. I think in preparation for the return of Brayford. Wallace got forward a bit more than I've seen him before and I think the intention is to indeed have the width provided by full-backs. If Hammond arrives it will be interesting to see who plays in their with him.

 

[Rodley]

Using his regular 4-4-2 formation, Adkins played Coutts and Flynn in the wide positions against Doncaster. But how wide are they? Quite often - not very.


Let's look at one passage of play:

It seems like we're going nowhere, Basham even points to Edgar and wants Baxter to pass it back to him:
View attachment 13572


But Baxter has the composure to hold on to the ball for a second. With the skill to sidestep the Doncaster midfielder and the accuracy of his pass, Baxter finds Coutts in some space.
View attachment 13574

Coutts has time and space to pick a pass. His through ball finds Sammon who very nearly scores.
View attachment 13575



This is quite different to traditional wing play, where wingers stayed wide, looked to get on the ball, take on their full back and put crosses into the box.

The shape of our midfield in this situation is more like a box with all four very central. On the attack - our formation has been described as 4-2-2-2:

View attachment 13576

But even this isn't quite accurate, as it doesn't include the movement of the full backs, very often more advanced than even the two "wide", or attacking midfielders.

(This is why formations should primarily describe how a team lines up defensively when the opposition have the ball. On the attack it gets too complicated.)



The above situation certainly got too complicated for Doncaster. They couldn't figure out who was supposed to deal with Coutts.View attachment 13577

Coutts position was right midfield. Normally the opposition left back deals with him. But when Coutts is so deep, so central, it makes less sense for him to break out of the defensive line and push up to challenge him.

So what about the opposition left midfielder? Left midfielders traditionally keep an eye on the opposition right back. And as can be seen, Alcock (white circle) is bombing forward on that side, forcing said midfielder to stay wide and track him. Even though Alcock doesn't get the ball, his run may have been vital in letting Coutts get time and space on the ball.


Summary: Our "wingers" will probably be staying less wide than previously. Our full backs may be the ones who provide real width.

Presumably huge emphasis is put on the full backs fitness and work-rate?

 

[Foxy]

I've watched the whole game, Bergs. Agree that we've narrowed the midfield. I think in preparation for the return of Brayford. Wallace got forward a bit more than I've seen him before and I think the intention is to indeed have the width provided by full-backs. If Hammond arrives it will be interesting to see who plays in their with him.

I'd say we've been looking to do so since pre-season, the full backs have been at it since day one...

One thing evident on Saturday for me however, is how the likes of Flynn didn't use it as an excuse to leave the full backs totally isolated when not in possession, as others have done from time to time of late.

 

[Ginger Gnome]

That one passage of play is fine, but the second goal came from Coutts being out on the touchline on the right, and the third from Flynn being far out on the left. So it doesn't really prove anything other than the players have movement rather than standing out wide waiting for it to come to them.

 

[UnitedBlade]

With Bray back and Wallace establishing consistency this could work very well. Full backs bombing on and some intelligent through balls from the midfielders (narrowed or not).

Fix defensive central midfield and centre backs in the loan window and we could be looking at a good side.

3 points onTuesday will help the confidence.

UTB

 

[boo radley]

Been saying this since the start of the season. Not only that, if you have seen our games then when we do go wide it is down the left mostly. also check out the games that JCR has played and you see that he has been told to try to come in from the wing.

 

[sheffielder]

I've watched the whole game, Bergs. Agree that we've narrowed the midfield. I think in preparation for the return of Brayford. Wallace got forward a bit more than I've seen him before and I think the intention is to indeed have the width provided by full-backs. If Hammond arrives it will be interesting to see who plays in their with him.

Out of interest, where have you watched the whole game. I need to watch again as I clearly didn't watch the same game as some on here yesterday

 

[Blade58]

yep, it's the "attacking" full backs that should give us the width and an extra dynamic when attacking

just a case of having/picking the right ones

 

[Barney]

That one passage of play is fine, but the second goal came from Coutts being out on the touchline on the right, and the third from Flynn being far out on the left. So it doesn't really prove anything other than the players have movement rather than standing out wide waiting for it to come to them.

Agree with this.

Do we know how often scenarios similar to that picture appear in any one game?

I wouldn't say one passage proves we set out to play in this certain way. You could do the same with any passage of play on those terms.

Take nothing away from the OP though, it's a good informative post as usual.

 

[SouthEssexBlade]

I'd say we've been looking to do so since pre-season, the full backs have been at it since day one...

One thing evident on Saturday for me however, is how the likes of Flynn didn't use it as an excuse to leave the full backs totally isolated when not in possession, as others have done from time to time of late.

Flynn is showing the benefit of that spell at full-back. I'd say he's become a wide midfield player rather than a winger. Yesterday might be the first time this season we've gone with wide midfielders both sides. Helps the full-backs immensely when we're defending.

 

[Rodley]

Agree with this.

Do we know how often scenarios similar to that picture appear in any one game?

I wouldn't say one passage proves we set out to play in this certain way. You could do the same with any passage of play on those terms.

Take nothing away from the OP though, it's a good informative post as usual.

I think Bergers mentioned he'd watched the game in full and identified this as a recurring trend.

 

[Woodwardfan]

Coutts' best season at Derby was playing on the right flank in front of Brayford and they had a "telepathic understanding". Good footballers do not have to run around like blue-arsed flies for 90 minutes, they can pull the strings for willing runners and play them in all day long.

Coutts in control of the ball waiting for Adams, Brayford, Sharp, Done, Sammon etc to make the runs and off we go. Can't wait.

.

In 4-4-2 the right hand midfield needn't be an out and out winger, more an occasional winger. In an ideal world the full back overlaps him time and again and that's when Coutts will bring in Brayford in due course - or Alcock, or Freeman, or Flynn if he plays full back again. Then he covers -at his own pace!! If there's a more conventional winger on the other side all well and good. If he plays deeper then Baxter and Basham will have more licence to push upfield. More than a few ways to skin a cat. They don't all have to stand in a line, far from it.

Coutts and Flynn at wide midfield releases Basham and Baxter more.

When Adams and Ryce are on the flanks the central two have to cover and play deeper as they can't rely on the other two to track back diligently.

Personally I don't think Basham has it in him to make it count regularly upfied but the higher upfield Baxter plays the better he will perform.

Maybe my above quotes on another thread adds to this thread, all are relevant I hope.

 

[Ben_1982]

Think the mid was a diamond with the fullbacks over lapping more wide. Alcock certainly was before being assaulted

 

[Dec]

I don't think you're helping Adkins' 'don't give anything away' mantra.

Interesting stuff though!

 

[Ricky]

With the right players you can regularly control the middle playing that way, but to have any chance of creating enough chances on a regular basis you need good attacking full backs or strikers who create for themselves (which we don't really have). It also helps if one of the wide midfielders has the pace and trickery to attack the full back. Flynn's quite suitable for that role but more so from the right than the left - but if he plays right centre then who plays on the left? Can we re-sign Quinn and play him in his best position?

 

[TJB.]

Well let's hope Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink doesn't browse these kinds of sites!

Cracking post. Very informative.

 

[Woodwardfan]

With the right players you can regularly control the middle playing that way, but to have any chance of creating enough chances on a regular basis you need good attacking full backs or strikers who create for themselves (which we don't really have). It also helps if one of the wide midfielders has the pace and trickery to attack the full back. Flynn's quite suitable for that role but more so from the right than the left - but if he plays right centre then who plays on the left? Can we re-sign Quinn and play him in his best position?

Maybe Woolford was signed exactly for that.

Actually I think Flynn is more effective on the left in some ways.

 

[Bergen Blade]

Flynn is showing the benefit of that spell at full-back. I'd say he's become a wide midfield player rather than a winger. Yesterday might be the first time this season we've gone with wide midfielders both sides. Helps the full-backs immensely when we're defending.

Yes, but the wide midfielders can no longer just stay in front of their full backs and help out when the opposition full backs are going forward. Compared to last season we've lost a central midfielder, AND we're playing Baxter there. While I applaud his improved fitness he's not yet great defensively and Basham can't be everywhere, so the wide guys have to help out by tucking inside as well. Like Flynn does here:



It's a bit similar to the situation in the OP, as it's a wide midfielder that's found space between the midfield and defence. However unlike Doncaster's wide midfielder, Flynn doesn't just stay wide focusing on an overlapping full back, he's tucking inside and reacting to a bigger danger, the guy who's found space behind B&B.

There were a lot of people (me included) who thought we should consider changing our formation after the two home defeats and poor first half at Bradford. We didn't look strong enough in midfield to get away with the 4-4-2 formation. This was followed by improvement in the second half at Bradford when we did switch to a central midfiled trio.

It's something we've got to continually assess - is our midfield four able to cover enough space? Adkins obviously wants to stick with 4-4-2. The narrow midfield and selected (defensively decent) wide men helped make it work on Saturday, but there will be bigger tests coming up.

 

[Bergen Blade]

Agree with this.

Do we know how often scenarios similar to that picture appear in any one game?

I wouldn't say one passage proves we set out to play in this certain way. You could do the same with any passage of play on those terms.

Take nothing away from the OP though, it's a good informative post as usual.

That one passage of play is fine, but the second goal came from Coutts being out on the touchline on the right, and the third from Flynn being far out on the left. So it doesn't really prove anything other than the players have movement rather than standing out wide waiting for it to come to them.

It's true that we're not so narrow all the time. I'm sure Adkins want some traditional wide play from whoever is selected in the wide roles, some runs and some crosses. Before our second and third goal Coutts and Flynn had both been closing down play on "their" sides and this remains their responsibility.

 

[Patrick Suffaux]

Really interesting insight that Bergen. When I saw the lineup Saturday I did wonder if Adkins had opted to play a little more narrow with perhaps even a diamond. Looks like I was sort of half right but was just a guess when I saw he selection.

 

[Dnblade]

Great O/P Bergs...I was a bit worried about being outnumbered in midfield,but playing narrow made up for it and allowed us to keep 2 up and get the Full Backs bombing on and providing width.It's not so rigid to be set in stone though,and Flynn and Coutts still at times got wide..great to see Coutts back by the way.

 

[mosbolad]

What about this for the Burton game?

 

[Bladeinleeds]

Good post this...

On woolford. I wonder if this might be one of the reasons we are struggling with him in our side. He doesn't seem to have to touch or ability to retain possession as some of the others

The win % must be pretty low in the games he has started (not analysed it but a number of defeats and draws coincided with him starting)

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Excellent reading as always Bergen. Keep up the good work.

There’s been some discussion on here recently about how in a 442, the wide midfielders need to play a bit narrower because if they don’t, the 2 CMs have too much ground to cover.

When I heard the line up, I thought it was the case that the 4 would be quite narrow and we would have to rely on the fullbacks for width. I must confess that I didn’t have a lot of faith in Alcock and Wallace providing that and was perplexed at Freeman’s omission. I assumed that it had been done to combat Donny’s aerial threat at set pieces (we all know Freeman doesn’t like to mess his hair up). Overall, I was a bit concerned about the lack of pace and width in the side but Alcock certainly proved me wrong. I thought he and Coutts linked up superbly in the first half and that was the source of both goals.

I’ve said before that I thought Coutts could only play a wide role if he had plenty of support from an overlapping fullback. I think this thread also goes some way to explaining why JCR was loaned out last season. When we signed Brayford and Coutts, we shifted the focus of wide attacking threat from the winger to the right back. It seemed clear the plan was to have Coutts playing that tucked in right midfield position with Brayford overlapping and that Flynn would provide competition/cover for Coutts whilst Freeman provided competition/ cover for Brayford. Where we’d previously had Alcock playing as a more withdrawn fullback, JCR had that responsibility of beating his man in wide areas but with the new arrangement, he didn’t seem to fit.

The way things worked out, Brayford went to CB, Coutts ended up at CM and it all ended up a but pear shaped but I think that had been the original plan. Although I must say, I’m not a fan od playing that type of winger in a 451 as it doesn’t allow the wide midfielder to get close enough to the forward. Perhaps the plan was to end up a 442 with Davies and Done as the strikers? I guess we’ll never know.

It’s also worth noting how the shape changed when Adams was on the field. We seemed to very between 442 and 433 as gradually, Adams moved to the right, Sammon dropped slightly wide on the left and Flynn tucked in a bit more.

 

[SouthEssexBlade]

Yes, but the wide midfielders can no longer just stay in front of their full backs and help out when the opposition full backs are going forward. Compared to last season we've lost a central midfielder, AND we're playing Baxter there. While I applaud his improved fitness he's not yet great defensively and Basham can't be everywhere, so the wide guys have to help out by tucking inside as well. Like Flynn does here:

View attachment 13590

It's a bit similar to the situation in the OP, as it's a wide midfielder that's found space between the midfield and defence. However unlike Doncaster's wide midfielder, Flynn doesn't just stay wide focusing on an overlapping full back, he's tucking inside and reacting to a bigger danger, the guy who's found space behind B&B.

There were a lot of people (me included) who thought we should consider changing our formation after the two home defeats and poor first half at Bradford. We didn't look strong enough in midfield to get away with the 4-4-2 formation. This was followed by improvement in the second half at Bradford when we did switch to a central midfiled trio.

It's something we've got to continually assess - is our midfield four able to cover enough space? Adkins obviously wants to stick with 4-4-2. The narrow midfield and selected (defensively decent) wide men helped make it work on Saturday, but there will be bigger tests coming up.

I'm gleaning from this, that you would advocate Hammond/Basham as a pairing if and when he arrives? Obviously a bit of a horses for courses to that (and maybe the arrival of another CB) but coverage over midfield would suggest those two.