Our wing backs are key to success in our system.

[Woodwardfan]

3-5-2 can be a defensive system and can be offensive. Going forward much relies on the No.10 and the wing backs with cover from central midfield as appropriate. Our No.10 Duffy has had a good season but when he is marked out of the game we have to turn to other players for creativity.

I think our wing backs do the defensive part well but are unproductive in the final third of the pitch just where it matters for the strikers. Wing backs need to be both full backs and wingers during the game. They should create goal chances and weigh in with a few goals themselves.

Stats from the club website today:

Stevens Minutes played 3252. ( equiv to 36 games) 4 assists 1 goal. 30 key passes. 24 successful crosses. 5 shots in total. 1 on target. 40 passes per game, 69.4% successful.

Baldock: 2102 minutes. ( equiv to 23 games) 1 assist 1 goal. 22 key passes. 12 successful crosses. 17 shots. 9 on target. 30 passes per game, 69.7% successful.

Some of those stats are astonishing really. Stats can distort and may not be 100% accurate ( surely that Stevens goal wasn't his only shot on target this season!) but they provide a certain measure of what is happening and we fans know this is what we see week in week out.

If we play 3-5-2 the wing backs are key I.M.O. Early season O'Connell and Basham papered over the cracks by bombing forward themselves but maybe they have been told to do that less since we dropped the 'gung-ho' tactics.

This is not intended to be a character assassination of the players, both of whom are honest and work very hard. Stevens hasn't played at this level before and maybe Baldock has played just a few games here before. Stevens looks a full back to me, not a wing back. Baldock doesn't shy from the attacking side but mostly finds dead-ends.

 

[Sheff de party]

They are genuinely astonishing stats given almost every goal we score seems to come from out wide.

 

[wizadry]

I’ve mentioned it before but when we concentrate on pull backs or balls along the ground they cause havoc and we’ve scored quite a lot of goals through it but as soon as we try another sort of cross we create nothing.

They need to start crossing balls in earlier and with more venom into the corridor of uncertainty and we’d create far more chances, our strikers are getting fed up of making runs then having to halt the run because the ball or pass hasn’t been delivered, this is a big aspect of our game that needs improving and although it’s mainly the wingbacks job to do this it’s not just them failing to do so, Evans, Fleck and Duffy are all culprits of it, Evans takes a touch most of the time then crosses it but the two times he hasn’t taken a touch and crossed it in first time in the last two games they’ve been his best deliveries, if he can replicate this more often then the forwards will start to anticipate it more and get on the end of them.

Overall, Baldock has had a good season and will only get better, Stevens had a good start but faltered somewhat, regained some form but has since gone into an ultra negative mode passing backwards continually, I’m putting this down to a mixture of fatigue mainly which will get better and a lack of movement at times infront of him but with this being only his first full season at this level, ultimately he will only get better in every aspect.

Stevens would benefit from a rest now as he’s played the more games and the wingback role imo is the hardest and most demanding role on the pitch.

 

[Woodwardfan]

They are genuinely astonishing stats given almost every goal we score seems to come from out wide.

Good point so it needs comparisons with other relevant players:

Duffy: 2208 minutes. 2 goals 9 assists 28 shots 12 on target. 57 key passes 9 successful crosses.
O'Connell: 3420 mins. 0 goals 3 assists. 22 shots 5 on target. 14 key passes 12 successful crosses.
Basham 3166 mins,1 goal 1 assist. 10 shots 2 on target. 13 key passes 9 successful crosses.
Fleck. 2939 mins. 1 goal 5 assists. 28 shots 18 on target. 59 key passes. 13 successful crosses.

 

[Woodwardfan]

I’ve mentioned it before but when we concentrate on pull backs or balls along the ground they cause havoc and we’ve scored quite a lot of goals through it but as soon as we try another sort of cross we create nothing.

They need to start crossing balls in earlier and with more venom into the corridor of uncertainty and we’d create far more chances, our strikers are getting fed up of making runs then having to halt the run because the ball or pass hasn’t been delivered, this is a big aspect of our game that needs improving and although it’s mainly the wingbacks job to do this it’s not just them failing to do so, Evans, Fleck and Duffy are all culprits of it, Evans takes a touch most of the time then crosses it but the two times he hasn’t taken a touch and crossed it in first time in the last two games they’ve been his best deliveries, if he can replicate this more often then the forwards will start to anticipate it more and get on the end of them.

Overall, Baldock has had a good season and will only get better, Stevens had a good start but faltered somewhat, regained some form but has since gone into an ultra negative mode passing backwards continually, I’m putting this down to a mixture of fatigue mainly which will get better and a lack of movement at times infront of him but with this being only his first full season at this level, ultimately he will only get better in every aspect.

Stevens would benefit from a rest now as he’s played the more games and the wingback role imo is the hardest and most demanding role on the pitch.

Agree and we also need our strikers to get there before the keeper when those early balls come into that ,corridor of uncertainty'. They rarely do, not even Sharp. Get to that front post!

 

[wizadry]

Agree and we also need our strikers to get there before the keeper when those early balls come into that ,corridor of uncertainty'. They rarely do, not even Sharp. Get to that front post!

That’s my point Wwf, they would get on the end of them if they expected more deliveries in earlier but at the moment we take too many needless touches before putting the ball in hence them getting fed up.

 

[ekke287]

It's worth noting also that Baldock and Stevens scored against the two teams who are nailed on for relegation at home (Sunderland and Burton respectively). Not that it should affect the stats too much, but not those teams are pretty weak defensively.

 

[UnitedBlade]

They are genuinely astonishing stats given almost every goal we score seems to come from out wide.

If you look at some stats sites, it will also say we are very good at through balls. A few examples are Brooks’s goals against Burton and Leeds, Donaldson has scored 5 and from memory most are from through balls. Wing backs and crosses are important but it’s not our only strength. Duffy leads our assists and they will be a combination of through balls, crosses, free kicks and corners.

Assists can be a bit misleading as I’ve discovered a quarter of our goals don’t have an assistee. Sometimes they don’t accredit a penalty to anyone as an assist. Derby’s goalkeeper gifted one of the goals to Billy in the home game etc. I can’t find anywhere that lists assists by game so it’s hard to work out the goals that don’t have an assistee.

 

[Booker4]

The current system we play relies heavily on the number 10 creating and scoring and the wing backs doing similar. Last season Freeman scored 10 goals and Duffy 8 or so and countless assists for both. This season its understandable that we aren't going to get a wing back scoring 10 goals in our first season back at this level. However if we are to be successful next season we need more goals across the team than we currently get. That's an obvious statement but we can't rely on the two centre forwards scoring every week as they both rely on service. Without creative wingers and their assists and goals, we need 5 goals or so from Enda and Baldock - they both should be getting to the far stick when the ball comes across from the opposite side. Enda did it against Burton in the centre forward position, like what Feeeman did last season.

We need more goals from the centre bacls. Currently O'Connel, Stearman and Bash have 2 between them and one scored by Carter-
Vickers. Duffy needs to be getting between 5 and 10 a season and the two behind maybe 3 goals a season. As it stands I just don't see us being able to score the goals to get into the play offs. That's not to say I don't rate Baldock or Stevens, who I both think have had decent seasons. But we need a bit more from both of those two going forward.

 

[Houston_Blade]

If you look at some stats sites, it will also say we are very good at through balls. A few examples are Brooks’s goals against Burton and Leeds, Donaldson has scored 5 and from memory most are from through balls. Wing backs and crosses are important but it’s not our only strength. Duffy leads our assists and they will be a combination of through balls, crosses, free kicks and corners.

Assists can be a bit misleading as I’ve discovered a quarter of our goals don’t have an assistee. Sometimes they don’t accredit a penalty to anyone as an assist. Derby’s goalkeeper gifted one of the goals to Billy in the home game etc. I can’t find anywhere that lists assists by game so it’s hard to work out the goals that don’t have an assistee.

Through balls are good when we get forward quickly, at the moment either teams come and get men behind the ball and defend deep, taking through balls out of the equation, or we are too ponderous in getting the ball forwards. When we do this quickly we look dangerous, when we wait and look to build down the wings we look ineffective.

 

[Booker4]

As an example of more goals needed, obviously Leon takes the headlines but he is out of form and we need to be patient of Wilder needs to select someone else, but that is an issue in itself as the back ups aren't as good and we just need Leon to find his goal scoring boots fast. But when Duffy receives the ball in the box from Leon and leans back to shoot over the bar, that's the sort of chance that we need burying from the number 10. That's the difference between us and Villa with Snodgrass as an example.

 

[UnitedBlade]

Through balls are good when we get forward quickly, at the moment either teams come and get men behind the ball and defend deep, taking through balls out of the equation, or we are too ponderous in getting the ball forwards. When we do this quickly we look dangerous, when we wait and look to build down the wings we look ineffective.

Totally agree, our current problems stem from being ponderous at times and lack of quality in the delivery in the final third.

A good example of where through balls worked was the Sty where we scored from a free kick after a great direct run from Brooks and 3 through balls, no crosses involved in the goals.

 

[Woodwardfan]

If you look at some stats sites, it will also say we are very good at through balls. A few examples are Brooks’s goals against Burton and Leeds, Donaldson has scored 5 and from memory most are from through balls. Wing backs and crosses are important but it’s not our only strength. Duffy leads our assists and they will be a combination of through balls, crosses, free kicks and corners.

Assists can be a bit misleading as I’ve discovered a quarter of our goals don’t have an assistee. Sometimes they don’t accredit a penalty to anyone as an assist. Derby’s goalkeeper gifted one of the goals to Billy in the home game etc. I can’t find anywhere that lists assists by game so it’s hard to work out the goals that don’t have an assistee.

What does it matter if some goals don't have an assister? Penalties are accredited to those fouled or forcing handball.

 

[Woodwardfan]

If you look at some stats sites, it will also say we are very good at through balls. A few examples are Brooks’s goals against Burton and Leeds, Donaldson has scored 5 and from memory most are from through balls. Wing backs and crosses are important but it’s not our only strength. Duffy leads our assists and they will be a combination of through balls, crosses, free kicks and corners.

Assists can be a bit misleading as I’ve discovered a quarter of our goals don’t have an assistee. Sometimes they don’t accredit a penalty to anyone as an assist. Derby’s goalkeeper gifted one of the goals to Billy in the home game etc. I can’t find anywhere that lists assists by game so it’s hard to work out the goals that don’t have an assistee.

Agree with all you say UB and goals come from all manner of areas and circumstances. I'm trying to make the point that 3-5-2 needs good wing-backs in particular. I also mentioned that they become more important when our main creative player, Duffy, is marked out of the game.

 

[Woodwardfan]

As an example of more goals needed, obviously Leon takes the headlines but he is out of form and we need to be patient of Wilder needs to select someone else, but that is an issue in itself as the back ups aren't as good and we just need Leon to find his goal scoring boots fast. But when Duffy receives the ball in the box from Leon and leans back to shoot over the bar, that's the sort of chance that we need burying from the number 10. That's the difference between us and Villa with Snodgrass as an example.

The Snodgrass example was a sensational goal from a wing-back cutting in and taking responsibity. One in a thousand but clearly great for intention and execution.

 

[Sean Thornton]

Totally agree, our current problems stem from being ponderous at times and lack of quality in the delivery in the final third.

A good example of where through balls worked was the Sty where we scored from a free kick after a great direct run from Brooks and 3 through balls, no crosses involved in the goals.

An even better example was the way Fulham did it the other Tuesday. Worked the ball wide and attacked the line.

 

[UnitedBlade]

Agree with all you say UB and goals come from all manner of areas and circumstances. I'm trying to make the point that 3-5-2 needs good wing-backs in particular. I also mentioned that they become more important when our main creative player, Duffy, is marked out of the game.

I know you are and I agree with you. I’m just looking further into our assists and where they come from.

 

[Woodwardfan]

I know you are and I agree with you. I’m just looking further into our assists and where they come from.

It's been unfortunate that Freeman has been injured but Wilder has failed to sign proper wing-backs I'm afraid.

We don't have to play 3-5-2 ( my favourite system) when we have Brooks, Duffy and Holmes on board. 4-2-3-1 would be ideal for those 3 with Fleck and Evans behind them. Stevens at left back, Baldock right back. The forward 3 could be a mixture of strikers and those 3 too.

 

[Houston_Blade]

Slightly off point and he wasn't a 'wing back' per se, but Gary Neville was shit at getting forwards and his crosses generally came from the half way line or close to it, he got away with it for years!

 

[RedandWhite]

What we need to do is, when in the right position on the wing... cross it!

What we do is, decide not to cross it, wait for our RCB-LCBS to overlap, lay them off for them to... pull back again. By the time we have decided we want to cross the ball, we either lose it by taking too long or put in the worst cross ever because they are stood still and can't get a decent run up to the ball.

As seen on Saturday, when we put the ball in first time with a decent amount of space away from the first defender we could have had 2-3 via Clarke.

 

[UnitedBlade]

It's been unfortunate that Freeman has been injured but Wilder has failed to sign proper wing-backs I'm afraid.

We don't have to play 3-5-2 ( my favourite system) when we have Brooks, Duffy and Holmes on board. 4-2-3-1 would be ideal for those 3 with Fleck and Evans behind them. Stevens at left back, Baldock right back. The forward 3 could be a mixture of strikers and those 3 too.

I agree we've missed Freeman for competition and energy. He's had a bad injury and I'm not sure we'll see him properly fit by the end of the season.

Stevens was great early on but I advocated giving him a rest some time ago. He did pick up again recently but had a couple of poorer games recently. This is definitely an area to strengthen next season.

Looking back, losing Coutts was a catastrophe for how we play. Such was the shock of losing him, we took 1 point from the 5 games that followed. Losing Brooks's game changing ability shortly afterwards compounded things and showed we didn't have the depth of squad we needed.

Results have actually picked up from the window and credit to Wilder for boosting the squad with the funds he had but my fear is we'll fall short. It won't be for want of trying but we need that spark back in our play and more quality in the final third.

 

[Woodwardfan]

Slightly off point and he wasn't a 'wing back' per se, but Gary Neville was shit at getting forwards and his crosses generally came from the half way line or close to it, he got away with it for years!

But he had Beckham on thw wing, lovely crosser of the ball. They had an excellent partnership too and that together with Scholes and Butt all on the same wavelength. Hated 'em!!

 

[Trafford]

It was great to see Jack make some overlapping runs again on Saturday, it's been missing from our game since January, but Stevens mostly chose to play it behind or inside instead of using him. Look at Jack's successful cross number, it's higher than the wingers, so why not use him?! It most be so frustrating to have charged forward and then see the ball go back where you've just come from.

 

[Sean Thornton]

It was great to see Jack make some overlapping runs again on Saturday, it's been missing from our game since January, but Stevens mostly chose to play it behind or inside instead of using him. Look at Jack's successful cross number, it's higher than the wingers, so why not use him?! It most be so frustrating to have charged forward and then see the ball go back where you've just come from.

He looks knackered.

 

[Sean Thornton]

The key was Coutts as has been clearly shown. . We've no one with his quick thinking and quick feet playing the ball through for the wing backs. Blaldick know and Stevens were playing most of the time then. Have they become poor players overnight or has the quality of the ball to them declined?

 

[Booker4]

The Snodgrass example was a sensational goal from a wing-back cutting in and taking responsibity. One in a thousand but clearly great for intention and execution.

We've seen many teams, even the lower ones this season - albeit still with bigger budgets than ours, like Birmingham - score quality goals by individual brilliance and composure, and as good as Duffy is we need more of the finishes he had at Reading and Wednesday. Because we don't have wingers and have full backs playing as wingers, the responsibility on the number 10 is arguably too much but Duffy needs to be scoring 10 a season for our system to work better. Either that or spread around the team but Duffy in his free role and advanced up the pitch needs to finish chances like he had on Saturday, although I think Duffy is a quality player and probably the player of the season.

We might well need to sign a more winger like wing back next season to increase creativity. IE a Borbokis type! Is there another somewhere for under a million!?

 

[Woodwardfan]

It was great to see Jack make some overlapping runs again on Saturday, it's been missing from our game since January, but Stevens mostly chose to play it behind or inside instead of using him. Look at Jack's successful cross number, it's higher than the wingers, so why not use him?! It most be so frustrating to have charged forward and then see the ball go back where you've just come from.

It's up to L.Evans to cover him when he goes and he does. So does Lundstram even more so. Very good positionally he is.

 

[Woodwardfan]

We've seen many teams, even the lower ones this season - albeit still with bigger budgets than ours, like Birmingham - score quality goals by individual brilliance and composure, and as good as Duffy is we need more of the finishes he had at Reading and Wednesday. Because we don't have wingers and have full backs playing as wingers, the responsibility on the number 10 is arguably too much but Duffy needs to be scoring 10 a season for our system to work better. Either that or spread around the team but Duffy in his free role and advanced up the pitch needs to finish chances like he had on Saturday, although I think Duffy is a quality player and probably the player of the season.

We might well need to sign a more winger like wing back next season to increase creativity. IE a Borbokis type! Is there another somewhere for under a million!?

There lies the point of the o.p. and the thread.

If we don't have quality wing backs should we play 3-5-2. Yes we should? Sign some then.

Hussey was Wilder's first signing and an attempt to sign the specialist I think. Shame he didn't settle well.

 

[beatific blade]

We can't forget that Baldock and Stevens were playing League One and League Two football respectively before this season.

I think they've both done well.

 

[Woodwardfan]

We can't forget that Baldock and Stevens were playing League One and League Two football respectively before this season.

I think they've both done well.

Agree and tried to put it in context in the o.p.